Comparison of Sage vs Other Canadian offerings

[asirota]

So I finally broke down and tried MCE out... A few observations...

1. Yes the UI is MUCH more snazzier than SageTV and in many ways superior from a usability perspective. There are just LESS ways to do something and the consistency is much greater. In SageTV I think there are many "context sensitive" menus, whereas in MCE it is pretty much what you see is what you get.

2. The approach to typing with a remote is superior in MCE. They use the cell phone approach (1 gets you A,B,C depending on the number of times you hit it) which is in fact faster than spelling the whole thing out with a keyboard... Of course if you use a mouse with Sage you can equally do this as quick. But even though it appears less friendly, in fact this is a better UI if you don't have a password.

3. While I did not use the MP3 or picture library stuff much it looked a bit more refined.

4. There was always a way to STOP the playing media file and I still find it confusing on how to STOP media files from playing in Sage. It is always different and STOP does not usually mean stop.

But from an integrators standpoint I know that I will need to compete against an HP in order to integrate MCE, and with Sage I do not.

Also I don't intend to use Windows for long. As soon as the Linux version Sage is out the price point just halved for the software requirements that Lester Jacobs enumerated, and that is a good piece of margin on a device that is probably about 500-600 to build without software, all in.

I have been told by many people now that the Media Centre market for now will be only for those that have it all so most installs will be in the 2000-4000 dollar range anyways when all is said and done. I keep thinking that there is a higher volume lower end market, but I will need to validate that.

I have now built 2 SageTV boxes and have 2 more people that want one. In order to understand what people will actually use and like I am compiling a wish list of features that I plan to add to a very simple .STV. The parental control one is actually quite important that I have head many times, Lester... One thing I have noticed is that my 4 year old son, quite competently knows and understands how to use Sage even when changing skins on him. He understands the notion of prerecorded shows, they are much like DVDs or tapes to him. He expects solid usability and I think that if a 4 year old gets it than a 40 year old should be able to get it as well, at least I hope. What I don't like though is that he is able to browse all the recorded shows and select whatever he wants to watch. It would be nice to place passwords on the shows and also have single watch passwords -- that is a way to type in a password so that the show is deleted after it is watched... This can be a form of a bribe for kids to do their homework, do the chores, etc... At least no money is involved....

[jmiddleton]

One consideration missing from this discussion is HDTV. I admit that HD programming is scarce, especially in Canada, but the "tipping point" isn't far away and is probably much closer for HTPC purchasers who can reasonably be expected to use a large screen TV as their principal display - quite practical at 1280x720 or 1920x1080 resolution. The other pieces should fall into place over the coming year. Microsoft has announced that XBOX2 and all games written for it will be HD compatible. Ditto Sony and the PS3, which will also include a Blu-Ray HD-DVD drive. Cable and satellite operators are adding HD channels as fast as they can. Prices are falling like a rock. By the end of this year, I don't think you'll be able to sell an HTPC solution unless it supports HDTV. Note that MCE 2005 does support HDTV with the proper hardware.

The market for PVR's encompases three groups:
1. Those looking for an appliance. These people want a low level of complexity (think toaster) and will probably end up with a stand alone PVR rented/purchased from their cable/satellite provider. It won't be TIVO since they don't exist on this side of the border.
2. Those looking to expand the value of their PC investment by integrating it into their home entertainment system. These people are enthusiastic about the capability promised by the technology but they still want an appliance. Plug it in, turn it on, it works. If it isn't that easy, the support burden will put you out of business. This is the market Microsoft are targeting with MCE.
3. Last we have the techies, which includes most of the people who post to this board. We want to add PVR capability to the machines we already have and don't mind getting our hands dirty installing cards, updating drivers, editing inf files, etc... We like to be on the (b)leading edge and accept that some fiddling will be required to make it work. In exchange we get to have HTPC's a couple of years before the technology is mature enough for the mainstream.

I've been using SageTV since version 1.4 and am quite happy with my purchase. The product has improved a lot over the past year but I'm not sure it's ready for the mainstream consumer market. I'm not sure the current iteration of MCE qualifies as a mainstream consumer appliance either but Microsoft has deep pockets and will keep working until they get it right. Whether you love Microsoft or hate them, you have to admit they "sweat the details" of the user interface and most people enjoy using their products.

[asirota]

This weekend I had the experience of installing a SageTV powered HTPC at my parent's place in Detroit.

The following config was installed... The target price point of this device is $995 CDN

- SageTV 2.2
- mlbdude2 1.8.7 plugin
- a bluetooth mouse
- PIII 1GHz/512MB low profile machine
- WinTV PVR 500 MCE
- no remote
- modem
- nVidia MX440 based video card with S-Video out

The target setup was on a 35" regular TV with basic, non digital cable.

A few observations....

-S-Video output to a TV is fine for SageTV but for the underlying XP operating system, there are some serious issues with readability of certain UI elements and web pages... We ended up running at 1024x768 resolution with 200% DPI set to ensure that the UI was readable underneath SageTV

- The input devices MUST be very portable and reliable. The Bluetooth mouse I was using for some reason kept going off line after a few minutes or hours of use. I had to resync it to make it work. This simply is unacceptable, but obviously some sort of interference problem. We went with the Gyration GT product which is RF based but has the same range as the Bluetooth products and is quite innovative in that their mouse is usable using mid air gestures as well as traditional table top gestures. Very sweet.

- No high speed net access was available so a modem connection was setup for listings. Is Sage configurable for time based downloads or does it do it 24 hours since the last download? For hands off operation it appears that Sage will dial the modem and disconnect after some idle time, but it was clear from the System Information menu that it would do this during the day rather than some time during the night. Also the Weather plugin in mlbdude's system does not like dialup and refuses to dial the modem to get the weather listings. It just gives an error message in the SageTV UI (cannot connect to weather source -- or something like that).

- Having 2 50+ year olds use the sytem out of the box and learn it was quite amusing, but also sad... It was clear that without guidance they could not figure it out. One person was a fairly seasoned computer user, but not a power user. One person just liked Solitaire. Getting the point across that the system can record programs in the future without intervention was a lost cause. I hope over the next few weeks they will get that watching LiveTV is kind of a thing of the past. For now they will watch LiveTV and hopefully get into the recorded programs section and realize that they can program shows to watch in the future.

- It is clear that having a recognizable OS (read: Windows 2000/XP) in the background is an important feature. Several people commented that they are getting 2 devices in one - a computer and a video recorder. Crippling access to web browsing, email and other computer type applications would neuter the effectiveness of a home theater PC. I would strongly suggest that from an integrators standpoint one huge hurdle for Sage on Linux will be that end users expect decent email/web browsing/regular computer features to exist on their media centre. Also MP3 ripping is VERY important as the first thing my dad wanted to do was to put some CDs on board and unfortunately there is no built in MP3 ripping software on a basic XP box (windows media player no longer rips to MP3s

- The right click context menu when playing a show to navigate to other parts of SageTV is not too intuitive... Note that this setup had no remote whatsoever due to the request of the owner (my dad). He wanted to use a mouse and keyboard only. Under these circumstances it was not always clear when a right click was appropriate. This UI inconsistency is a difficult thing to master as the context sensitive menu system in Sage and most .STVs is complex and overwhelming for the average user. Most of this stuff has to be moved into the OSD somehow...

So to summarize: An Integrator's Wish List

- Assume no traditional remote control is available when designing the Sage UI. All menu items should be available with a left mouse click. Banish the right click menu in all parts of the UI and place these options elegantly into the OSD. Take for example: stopping the currently playing program/picture or song... Right clicking to make it stop is just too much work and non obvious.

- Assume high speed/always-on Internet is not available and allow customization of all parts of interaction with a non persistent Internet connection (downloading data, weather, etc)

- Make it easier to switch to the OS and/or integrate the most interesting OS features into Sage (ie Outlook Express and Internet Explorer or some compatible variants). One approach would be to elegantly load external Windows programs a la the current Arcade Games approach of listing apps to launch from the UI. Once launchable apps are available from Sage to elegantly launch/quit them, there should be a way to disable exiting the full screen mode (make Sage a 'shell' effectively). The functionality of the OS is an important differentiator for an HTPC over a TiVO or some cable box recorder. Taking the best of the underlying OS/software and putting it into Sage without the complexities of the rest of the OS is something to look at, I think, when competing against Microsoft MCE.

I have NOT tried all the STVs and plugins and realize some of what I am asking is available as an add-on, but unfortunately in order to make an integrator's job as easy as possible and as cost effective as possible the above core features must be in Sage before it is easily integratable, as MCE currently is (supposedly). I am still a huge SageTV fan and look forward to building more boxes for friends and family, but I can surely tell you now that putting one of these babies into a non-techie home could generate a huge amount of support calls. The next 2 weeks will be interesting...

[Opus4]

A couple notes:

Originally Posted by asirota

Is Sage configurable for time based downloads or does it do it 24 hours since the last download?

It downloads 24 hours after the last update & you can modify that; see this FAQ entry.

Also MP3 ripping is VERY important as the first thing my dad wanted to do was to put some CDs on board and unfortunately there is no built in MP3 ripping software on a basic XP box (windows media player no longer rips to MP3s

You can buy MP3 add-ins for Windows Media Player & I thought the latest version already had MP3 ripping opton built in? (If not, the add-ins are about $10-$20, if I remember correctly.)

- Andy