Aspect Ratio idea for future STV

[srothwell]

I have a suggestion to augment the aspect ratios in a future STV......

I have a widescreen TV that I am going from DVI out of the Sage server at 1776x1000 into the TV set.

All works well as anything on Sage will be pillar-boxed (black bars on left and right) to show the 4:3 recorded material. Normally this isn't an issue except more and more shows are letterboxed.

That, of course, means that there are black bars on the top and bottom of the 4:3 picture that the show is broadcast from on standard cable TV.

On a show like West Wing or Crossing Jordan, what I end up with, visually, is a shrunk-down widescreen picture on the larger widescreen TV with black around ALL sides.

Now, my Sony TV has a feature called ZOOM, which is on the TV presicely to fix this problem.... it just zooms up the picture to fill the screen (not stretching since it's getting rid of the same amount of black bars all around).

However, like most HDTV sets, when the TV is in HDTV mode you can't do any of the tricks (like Zoom). And, my SageTV server is in HD mode going in DVI.

What's the possibility of someone adding a feature to an STV that simply messes with the aspect ratio so that the vertical and Horizonal are blown up enough that a pillar-boxed, letterboxed signal will fill a 16:9 screen? It could just be another entry on the OPTIONS list?

Anyone game?

Stacy

[nielm]

in detailed setup/multimedia,
> set Aspect ratio mode to 16:9
> in Aspect Ratio Settings, set Vertical Zoom to 150%
This sets up a 16:9 anamorphic (non-square pixel) output and gets rid of the top/bottom black bars

Now tell the TV that the input is a 16:9 anamorphic widescreen input, an the TV should zoom the picture horizontally to get rid of the left/right black bars.

The disadvantage is that unless your vid card can output a 16:9 pixel resolution (848*480), the sage UI will look stretched horizontally.

For non-16:9 shows, or 16:9 DVDs, you will have to reset the aspect ratio to Source and the TV to 4:3/auto for them to view correctly..

[nielm]

Actually for non 16:9 shows, I have just realised that I have set the 4:3 aspect ratio to shrink the video horizontally to 75% so that Sage puts the black bars itself... This means that you leave the TV set to 16:9 widescreen mode, and then manually switch Sage between the 4:3 and 16:9 modes (there are commands you can map to remote buttons for this)...

There is no automatic was that I know of of auto rescaling video to get rid of black bars (I would have thought ffdshow might do it, but apparantly not!)

[srothwell]

Good... I'm glad someone understands what I'm talking about.

It seems to me that "all" that needs to be done is to have an STV automate the process of changing those aspect settings.

My feeling is that if I can change setup to make the picture look good myself, then an enhanced STV could do it for me. It just would need to be an option on the options button (where, at least in Cayers 17) that you'd toggle through when using the options button.

Stacy

[nielm]

(I also have a widescreen TV that auto-zooms to get rid of letterbox black bars!)

There is an option in the standard options menu (don't know about in cayars) to switch aspect ratio... There are also Sage commands that you can map to a remote button/keystroke for each aspect ratio.. The trouble is that there is only 4 of them!

[blade]

Any suggestions for non-purist like myself who can't stand the black bars on the sides when viewing 4:3 content?

Currently, I have the nvidia decoder set to display as anamorphic/raw aspect. Sage is set to source with the zoom settings at 100%. I have my video card resolution set so that the video extends just a couple of pixels beyond the viewable screen for overscan.

Is there a better way to "stretch" 4:3 content so that it fits the entire screen?

Also which do you guys/gals find cleaner, zooming with your tv or through software?

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by blade

Any suggestions for non-purist like myself who can't stand the black bars on the sides when viewing 4:3 content?

You can try ffdshow with either Warped Resize or using the Dscaler Linear Correction Filter.

It seems to me that "all" that needs to be done is to have an STV automate the process of changing those aspect settings.

The problem is that there's no way to tell if a show it letterboxed or not in Sage. I've asked Jere if he could throw AR detection into Comskip/SA and then an STV could just parse the file for the AR and adjust the setting accordingly.

[srothwell]

OK..... did some tests, at least on my TV set.....

If you set Vertical and Horizontal aspect ratio to 133% each, it will zoom the letter/pillarboxed stuff full screen on a widescreen TV.

Is there anyone who might be able to make a plug-in that would allow either:

1. a "zoom" to be added to the list of Aspect Ratios that one can currently toggle between (in options menu on Cayers 17) -- I think they currently are 4:3, 16:9, Source. If we add Zoom and just have the Aspect ratios change in the background that would do it. The other three would have to restore the aspect settings back to whatever was left in the sage.properties file (on mine it's 103%).
2. Someone make a "button" that can be assigned to a remote button that simply toggles through the different aspect ratios, also adding the "zoom" function.

Ideally in a perfect world, it'd be really great to have a field in the wiz.bin database that would remember that "The West Wing" needed to be zoomed, but "CSI" doesn't becuase WW is letterboxed when it's transmitted and CSI is pan & scan.

Anyone up to the task?

Thanks for all the help and advice!

Stacy

[stanger89]

Here's what I have, not very complicated though :
Resolution either 1776x1000 or 1920x1080 (note it's 16x9)
Most times I use source set to 100% 100% 0 0
For letterbox content, I have the 16x9 AR set to 100% horizontal and 133% Vertical, that effectively "zoom"s the content cutting off the edges.

Why does that work? Because the 16x9 AR setting stretches the video to fit a 16x9 area, which matches the screen, at 100% H/V that would leave the bars at 100/133 H/V, it zooms vertically to compensate for bars.

Sounds like you're using either Source or 4x3 (or you're using rectangular pixels).

[blade]

In the original STV there is also an aspect ratio called Fill.

You should already have plenty of aspect ratios to setup for each type of content you view. Assuming the STV you're using has the same ones the original STV does. You have 4:3, 16:9, Source, and Fill.

[srothwell]

But I don't think that Fill will work with a 4:3 source (SD TV signal) that is letterboxed. Sage has no way to know that the particular TV program was letterboxed (NOT true anamorphic 16:9 -- there's a difference).

So if you use fill, you'll just get a stretched horizontal with everyone fat and still have black on the top and bottom.

[srothwell]

Originally Posted by stanger89

For letterbox content, I have the 16x9 AR set to 100% horizontal and 133% Vertical, that effectively "zoom"s the content cutting off the edges.

Why does that work? Because the 16x9 AR setting stretches the video to fit a 16x9 area, which matches the screen, at 100% H/V that would leave the bars at 100/133 H/V, it zooms vertically to compensate for bars.

Sounds like you're using either Source or 4x3 (or you're using rectangular pixels).

Yes I am. 99% of SDTV content is still 4:3 based (I use source becuase SDTV material uses a 0.9:1 pixel aspect ratio). Yes yours would also work. I don't think it's really any different to using Source and 133% on both H&V. Like you said you could say 16:9 and only set the vertical to 133%, too.

I just hope that someone can modify an STV to kind of do this a little more automatically than going into setup every time I watch a letterboxed show.

For me it's no big deal. However, just like leaving the toilet seat up --- I sometimes forget to put it back then I get the wrath of my wife when the TV looks all screwed up the next day :-)

Stacy

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by srothwell

However, just like leaving the toilet seat up --- I sometimes forget to put it back then I get the wrath of my wife when the TV looks all screwed up the next day :-)

Sorry for the aside, but I initially read that as "... forget to put it back down then ..." and couldn't figure out how the toilet seat's position could affect how the TV looks.

- Andy

[nielm]

Stacy: there is no way to add any more new aspect ratios -- you would just have to use one of the default ones... (I use 4:3 and 16:9)

[src666]

Originally Posted by srothwell

I just hope that someone can modify an STV to kind of do this a little more automatically than going into setup every time I watch a letterboxed show.

Since you can set the "stretch" ratio for each of the modes (4x3, Full, 16x9), and can assign each mode to a button, I had no trouble at all getting everything right without having to "going into setup every time". If it's a letterboxed program, or I want to stretch a 4x3, I just hit the 16x9 button. If it's SDTV, I just hit the 4x3 button. Everything works, and I never have to change the aspect ratio on the TV except when my GF decides to mess with it "just because".

[blade]

Originally Posted by srothwell

But I don't think that Fill will work with a 4:3 source (SD TV signal) that is letterboxed. Sage has no way to know that the particular TV program was letterboxed (NOT true anamorphic 16:9 -- there's a difference).

So if you use fill, you'll just get a stretched horizontal with everyone fat and still have black on the top and bottom.

I never said Fill will work exactly how you want a "zoom" feature to work. As has already been said you can adjust the horizontal and zoom for the 4 different aspect ratios Sage offers. Simply set one of them up for standard 4:3 and another for letterbox. Map the keys on the remote to them and you can change from one to the other with the press of a single button. There's no need to enter the setup menu to change the aspect ratio. It's not automatic but it's not terribly difficult either.

[srothwell]

Thanks, I'll give it a try!

Stacy

[ytwater]

I've worked out an solution for automatically changing the pan/scan of a show for each series using ffdshow.

I've created two ffshow presets: one for regular 4x3 sagetv shows. The second preset is for widescreen shows. [attached]

The key to automatically select aspect ratios is to autoload the preset depending on the filename. The movies are recorded under their series name*.mpg. For example, the last "The Office" file was: TheOffice-TheFight-2431054-0.mpg, so "TheOffice*" will match all "The Office" shows.

Under "Preset Autoload conditions..." button in the ffdshow properties. I've told it to load the widescreen preset for the follwing filenames:

Mythbusters*;MonsterGarage*;TheOffice*;Nova*;NipTuck*



For normal sageTV operation, I use the autoload preset: Application Name - "SageTV.exe"

The widescreen preset justs crops 50 pixels from the top and bottom. It's not perfect, but it fits my 16x9 tv.

[turak]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Here's what I have, not very complicated though :
Resolution either 1776x1000 or 1920x1080 (note it's 16x9)
Most times I use source set to 100% 100% 0 0
For letterbox content, I have the 16x9 AR set to 100% horizontal and 133% Vertical, that effectively "zoom"s the content cutting off the edges.

Why does that work? Because the 16x9 AR setting stretches the video to fit a 16x9 area, which matches the screen, at 100% H/V that would leave the bars at 100/133 H/V, it zooms vertically to compensate for bars.

Sounds like you're using either Source or 4x3 (or you're using rectangular pixels).

I've also been doing this for a while. I have a soft button on my harmony remote set to 'source' and another that is set to 16x9. My 16x9 AR is setup to as you describe with the 133% vertical. I can easily toggle my AR between 4x3 and 16x9 with my remote control.

[stanger89]

Well, I get to re-tweak my AR settings tomorrow, I'm guessing they'll look like this when I'm done:

Source
Vzoom = 100%
Hzoom = 75%

16x9
Vzoom = 133%
Hzoom = 75%

Fill
Vzoom = 133%
Hzoom = 100%