Cheapest Possible Client?

[Mahoney]

Hi all,

Anyone got any thoughts on the cheapest client it would be possible to put together that can produce really good quality visuals right the way up to 1080*1920 progressive?

(Other than an X-Box and switch to MCE... which begins to look rather attractive when I weigh up the costs...)

Rob

[nielm]

I though an X-box 360 could 'only' do 720p? (and an Xbox, only 480i)

[Mahoney]

Originally Posted by nielm

I though an X-box 360 could 'only' do 720p? (and an Xbox, only 480i)

Looks like you're right - I could have sworn I saw several references to it doing 1080p, or perhaps that was the PS3? Just looked it up - looks like it is the PS3. And apparently the PS3 will have an open API!

Hmmm... any chance of the PS3 being used as a Sage client, I wonder?

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Mahoney

Looks like you're right - I could have sworn I saw several references to it doing 1080p,

It can to 1080i over component, or I think it can do 1280x1024 over VGA. It's possible that when HDMI happens it could do 1080p.

or perhaps that was the PS3? Just looked it up - looks like it is the PS3. And apparently the PS3 will have an open API!

Hmmm... any chance of the PS3 being used as a Sage client, I wonder?

Don't pin your hopes on either console being "open". And I wouldn't consider the PS3 as "cheap". That plus the fact that a PC is still the only reasonable way to get cheap 1080p.

[PGPfan]

PS3 having an 'open api'? I wouldn't bet on it with Sony's track record. This dog will likely be even more crippled with DRM than the Microsoft 'solution'.

The reason (imho) they 'say' open api is that it uses an entirely different architecture with the "Cell processor" and as a result they need to do as much as they can to lure developers over to the new platform.

-PGPfan

[paulbeers]

Back to the question at hand...While I am not sure about 1080P....I do 1080i with the following:

Sempron 2800+
ECS 760-M Mobo
512 MB of DDR Ram
geforce 6600 AGP

That seems to do 1080i just fine. Unfortunately my tv does not support 1080P.

[Mahoney]

And I wouldn't consider the PS3 as "cheap". That plus the fact that a PC is still the only reasonable way to get cheap 1080p.

According to the Sony CEO the PS3 will be in the $300 - $400 range; maybe not cheap but a lot cheaper than I could build a PC, as far as I can see. Even with a minimal HDD and no tuners I can't see myself getting a PC that can do good quality 1080p playback for under $1000. If you know better, I'd very much like some advice on specs.

If money were no object it would be a PC, every time - but sadly that's not the case.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Mahoney

According to the Sony CEO the PS3 will be in the $300 - $400 range;

Who krazy-Kenny? I'll believe that when I see it. I thought current estimates were a sale price of close to $500 even with a significant loss on each unit (more than MS is loosing on the 360).

maybe not cheap but a lot cheaper than I could build a PC, as far as I can see. Even with a minimal HDD and no tuners I can't see myself getting a PC that can do good quality 1080p playback for under $1000. If you know better, I'd very much like some advice on specs.

I think you're looking for a near impossibility, 1080p is very demanding, and requires expensive hardware. The cheapest video card that does true 1080i deinterlacing is the Geforce 7800. Save that and you're in multi-thousand dollar scalers. Don't expect a console to save you, they are inherently closed. If (big if) the PS3 can do 1080p video well, you're probably going to have to use some Sony software on the PC for it. You could (for example) get a Dell XPS 400 for $839. You could probably build one cheaper.

If money were no object it would be a PC, every time - but sadly that's not the case.

If you want an open platform, maybe you should look at the Roku Photobridge HD1500 (no 1080p though).

[Mahoney]

OK, thanks Stanger. So I would need a Geforce 7800; does it matter which version, or would the lowest clock speed/memory combo do?

Any estimates on a CPU & memory? Particularly if I would like to be able to use Nielm's ffd/rwd plugin in a manageable fashion.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Mahoney

OK, thanks Stanger. So I would need a Geforce 7800; does it matter which version, or would the lowest clock speed/memory combo do?

I should be clear, you don't need a 7800, a 6600GT or better will do quite nicely (better than most things), but not as good as a 7800.

Any estimates on a CPU & memory? Particularly if I would like to be able to use Nielm's ffd/rwd plugin in a manageable fashion.

With a good card, 2GHz class and 512 MB should be fine. I have no idea about the plugin, never used it.

[phenixdragon]

Originally Posted by Mahoney

Looks like you're right - I could have sworn I saw several references to it doing 1080p, or perhaps that was the PS3? Just looked it up - looks like it is the PS3. And apparently the PS3 will have an open API!

Hmmm... any chance of the PS3 being used as a Sage client, I wonder?

The PS3 will be able to do 1080p but my question is, how many people will have a TV that can do 1080p? I have yet to see one in the stores beause of the cost. I myself figure once the PS4 comes out 1080p will be on more new TVs then not.

[Mahoney]

There's a 1080p 37" LCD from Westinghouse for $1000 or less.

[phenixdragon]

Hmm...looks like they have come down in prices on those. I haven't seen them myself and the last I heard they were going for alot more then that, at least 5 times more.

But the lowest I have foudn that model is $1,799.95. So that is good news.

Just wait though, MSFT has hinted that the Xbox 360 will be upgraded with HD-DVD or Blue Ray once it is in the market. Basically they have said its too soon to decide which since no one knows who will survive and they did hint at adding it later down the road. So they could even upgrade it to 1080p since maybe in a year or two BR or HD-DVD will be using 1080p and I don't think cost will be a diffrence to support 1080p from 720p. We are talking a good year, maybe 2. And since the PS3 will have 1080p maybe that will help the push, even though most TVs only do 720p but as it looks ilke the prices are dropping for 1080p.

[phenixdragon]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Who krazy-Kenny? I'll believe that when I see it. I thought current estimates were a sale price of close to $500 even with a significant loss on each unit (more than MS is loosing on the 360).).

Do you seriouslly beleive that? It won't be more then what the Xbox 360. Sony would lose very quickly to the next gen systems if they were priced higher then MSFT and Nintendo. MSFT right now loses 40% per system but will be making it up with Live! and other forms of income. Hardware for a couple of years now is considered to always be a losing market and needs to be made up in other ways. And Sony is already cutting features out of the PS3 to cut costs.

$400 will be the max that the PS3 will go for. Anything more will only give MSFT and Nintendo a draw towards them, especially since as it stands right now the Xbox 360 is more powerful in doing any type of process except for I think floating point. Everything else the PS3 has been rated lower and this is from live hardware testing on both systems. But time will tell on which one is going to be stronger since the PS3 has time to be tweaked as it already is will less and less features each month.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by phenixdragon

Do you seriouslly beleive that? And Sony is already cutting features out of the PS3 to cut costs.

If they don't cut features I believe it. And heck, with the business decisions going on a Sony lately, I'd believe it too.

$400 will be the max that the PS3 will go for. Anything more will only give MSFT and Nintendo a draw towards them,

Just a counterpoint, the GameCube was priced significantly lower than the Xbox or PS2, yet it didn't gain the advantage. So price isn't everything. Though I would tend to agree that >$500 for the console is out of most people's comfort zone.

[phenixdragon]

Actually I was just reading on how Sony believes that people will be willing to work extra hours to pay for a higher priced system because it will be worth it.

But I think it will die even at $500. Maybe it could fly at $450 but it will be hard pressed when the new Nintendo should be priced at $100, maybe $150 and the Xbox at $300/$400. I believe the PS3 will not have a HDD and it will only be an add-on which is going to hurt them more.

But I wouldn’t throw the Cube in the mix. N didn’t get 3rd party support as MSFT and Sony did. I mean they had some of it but really screwed up on their marketing and signing 3rd parties. Even with Revolution it is supposed to be at the most twice the power of the Cube, which will be like an Xbox on steroids but the price is tops at $150. But then again, some games did look better on the Cube then they did on the Xbox. Nintendo is banking on HDTV not being a factor because games still look great and really HDTV isn’t in all the homes yet and won’t be for awhile.

I do believe Revolution will be a great system and if Sony prices the PS3 too high, well MSFT will take Sony’s spot and Sony and N will be only a few points from each other for 2nd and 3rd. And I hope Sony is that stupid because they really don't care about the customer like MSFT. in fact, Sony mocked online play and said it wouldn't ever go anywhere and look at it now. I just think Sony doesn't really think what the mainstream wants where you read so much about how MSFT modeled both Xboxes on user feedback.

[PGPfan]

Originally Posted by phenixdragon

Actually I was just reading on how Sony believes that people will be willing to work extra hours to pay for a higher priced system because it will be worth it..

This is actually an older quote, but it STILL shows how bad Sony has become at seeing what the consumer actually 'wants'.

Originally Posted by phenixdragon

But I think it will die even at $500. Maybe it could fly at $450 but it will be hard pressed when the new Nintendo should be priced at $100, maybe $150 and the Xbox at $300/$400. I believe the PS3 will not have a HDD and it will only be an add-on which is going to hurt them more.

No arguement here.

Originally Posted by phenixdragon

But I wouldn’t throw the Cube in the mix. N didn’t get 3rd party support as MSFT and Sony did. I mean they had some of it but really screwed up on their marketing and signing 3rd parties. Even with Revolution it is supposed to be at the most twice the power of the Cube, which will be like an Xbox on steroids but the price is tops at $150. But then again, some games did look better on the Cube then they did on the Xbox. Nintendo is banking on HDTV not being a factor because games still look great and really HDTV isn’t in all the homes yet and won’t be for awhile.

The point you are making is what actually will 'remove' the PS3 from the mix. You mention lack of 3rd party support as a contributor to the Cube's inability to compare. With Sony going with the Cell proc. and needing to create the developement environment for it as well, the will have a very tough time finding 3rd parties willing to relearn how to program for it, let alone someone competent at programming it well enough to truly exploit it's superior processing power.

Originally Posted by phenixdragon

I do believe Revolution will be a great system and if Sony prices the PS3 too high, well MSFT will take Sony’s spot and Sony and N will be only a few points from each other for 2nd and 3rd. And I hope Sony is that stupid because they really don't care about the customer like MSFT. in fact, Sony mocked online play and said it wouldn't ever go anywhere and look at it now. I just think Sony doesn't really think what the mainstream wants where you read so much about how MSFT modeled both Xboxes on user feedback.

I think you might be viewing MS with 'rose colored glasses'. Although they 'are' better than Sony when it comes to listening to the consumer feedback, their DRM 'solution' certainly isn't/won't be particularly consumer friendly.

-PGPfan

[phenixdragon]

I did read that Revolution is also going to cost more to program because it isn't HDTV and it will be much easier to port form the Xbox to PS3 and the other way around, at least right now thats what the rumors are, no one knows for sure cept the few companies who have already starting making games and thats all hush hush right now. I do know the 360 is easier to program, and has cheaper fees to MSFT for creating games. They where like a buck or two per disc cheaper then Sony charges which adds up.

DRM sucks but it has to happen, nothing no one can do about that. I don't agree with it myself because it only hurts the consumers and doesn't stop who it is supposed to because as we all know, you can crack anything. But I do love MSFT, always have agreed with them and always felt that if you don't like their product then buy something else. But they really do try to please the customer and do have the greatest support (at least for hardware RMAs) that I have ever had to deal with.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by PGPfan

The point you are making is what actually will 'remove' the PS3 from the mix. You mention lack of 3rd party support as a contributor to the Cube's inability to compare. With Sony going with the Cell proc. and needing to create the developement environment for it as well, the will have a very tough time finding 3rd parties willing to relearn how to program for it, let alone someone competent at programming it well enough to truly exploit it's superior processing power.

To play devil's advocate... The same is/was true of the PS2 and most other consoles. They used proprietary hardware and were generally difficult to program for. The Xbox was really the first console that was "simple" to program for.

I think you might be viewing MS with 'rose colored glasses'. Although they 'are' better than Sony when it comes to listening to the consumer feedback, their DRM 'solution' certainly isn't/won't be particularly consumer friendly.

No DRM is consumer friendly, but there is a need to separate/distinguish between those who create the DRM technology, and those who create the DRM policy. MS creates DRM technology (MS-RM) but doesn't control the policy it enforces. To see MS's position you need look no farther than the next-gen DVD battle. MS's goal is to make DRM as "transparent" as possible. They understand that there needs to be a unified system that works the same everywhere, and they're pushing for a standard (granted they're pushing their own WM-RM, but still).

Sony OTOH, has the complicated position of being both a DRM provider (the electronics/tech side) and a DRM policy setter (content side). Unfortunately, Sony electronics has show they have a predilection toward un-interoperable, closed, proprietary technologies, and Sony entertainment has shown they value protecting their content above all else.

As much as a business can, and still be a part of the next generation of media, MS is taking a very pro-consumer approach. Apparently they realize that it's their customers that make them successfull.

[PGPfan]

Originally Posted by stanger89

To play devil's advocate... The same is/was true of the PS2 and most other consoles. They used proprietary hardware and were generally difficult to program for. The Xbox was really the first console that was "simple" to program for.

Actually, it isn't entirely true. The difference lies in the fact that the Cell proc architecture is allegedly massively parallel in it's core. Nobody up until now saw much need to create really advanced multi-threaded applications (mainframes not withstanding). MS has like 92% of all PC's as a customer base and even they aren't doing more than just scratching the surface of parallel proc developement environments.

Now enter Sony. This company has NO EXPERIENCE in creating developement platforms (this has always been MS's strongsuit). Now they have to create one (and it better be VERY good if they expect to utilize the proc. power). Then, they have to figure out a way to compel developers to spend the time to learn their (read proprietary and not very good) IDE then try to learn the best ways to 'really' leverage all that cpu. It's just not going to happen.

MS made the Xbox easy because you are still dealing with known processor entities (Xbox1=x86, Xbox2=PowerPC), unlike the PS3.

Originally Posted by stanger89

No DRM is consumer friendly, but there is a need to separate/distinguish between those who create the DRM technology, and those who create the DRM policy. MS creates DRM technology (MS-RM) but doesn't control the policy it enforces. To see MS's position you need look no farther than the next-gen DVD battle. MS's goal is to make DRM as "transparent" as possible. They understand that there needs to be a unified system that works the same everywhere, and they're pushing for a standard (granted they're pushing their own WM-RM, but still).

The problem I have is that MS has chosen to alienate a significant share of the market by forcing the resolution 'strangle hold' (I forget the acronym for it) that will make most current displays obsolete when Vista comes around. It's just not a necessary consession that they had to make to Hollywood. I have little trouble with the idea of preventing copying over the web, however most of the DRM solutions (Microsoft's included) go way above and beyond that.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Sony OTOH, has the complicated position of being both a DRM provider (the electronics/tech side) and a DRM policy setter (content side). Unfortunately, Sony electronics has show they have a predilection toward un-interoperable, closed, proprietary technologies, and Sony entertainment has shown they value protecting their content above all else.

That's the price Sony is paying for a decade of incredible miss-management and it's STILL continuing.

Originally Posted by stanger89

As much as a business can, and still be a part of the next generation of media, MS is taking a very pro-consumer approach. Apparently they realize that it's their customers that make them successfull.

I wish it were that way. As you know, I used to work there and it isn't nearly as altruistic as it may seem. The only motivating force for business there- Power (first and foremost) and Money (second, or co-first priority) regardless of who you have to go through.

-PGPfan