Diskless Client (Compactflash only)?

[AndyS]

I'm wondering what kind of disk activity takes place in the Client, specifically what writes. I know that wiz.bin and sageclient.properties get written away but what else is there? I'm thinking that it would be cool to create a diskless client using an EPIA-MII and a compact-flash card to hold the OS, but it would only work well if the number of writes to the card were kept to a low number.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Andy.

[krutaw]

Originally Posted by AndyS

I'm wondering what kind of disk activity takes place in the Client, specifically what writes. I know that wiz.bin and sageclient.properties get written away but what else is there? I'm thinking that it would be cool to create a diskless client using an EPIA-MII and a compact-flash card to hold the OS, but it would only work well if the number of writes to the card were kept to a low number.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Andy.

I thought about doing something similiar about a year ago. Since then, I've found a solution that will allow for the PXE booting of the entire OS, and streaming of only the necessary parts www.ardence.com. The really neat part about it is that it's not like vmware where it's just a virtual machine, it's a real live honest to goodness version of windows running via PXE. That being the case, it uses the processing power of whatever diskless client you're using instead of having a centralized server to do the processing. The only thing the centralized server does is provide the boot environment and server the virtual hard drive.

I'm looking at this technology next week for a business application, but the thought of it tickles me pink to be honest. Can you imagine having diskless workstations for clients that PXE booted from the same server that you use for SageTV?

[PGPfan]

I noticed on their forum that they used to be "Venturecom" who made a product called BXP (Boot XP). I'm guessing that BXP was an early version of Ardence 'Desktop' now. Anyhow, about 3 years ago some of the folks on the AVSforum did a group buy of the BXP software from one of the european distributors of it.

You might consider talking to them (Ardence) about doing a group buy again for us. They obviously don't consider HTPC use in there marketing, but it could be a viable thing. As I recall, the group buy was like $200-$250 for a server and 5 client license. It'd be great if we could get something for even less.

Have you had a chance to actually try it out yet? I'm curious to see what impact it could have on network traffic.

-PGPfan

[AndersNolberger]

I have a 30 day evaluation of Ardence desktop and have installed Sage Client on it. In the small testings I have done it works really well! Booting XP takes 90 seconds instead of 50 when running on an old disk. But when XP is up and running I have not seen any performance degradation at all (in light Office use and with Sage Client). And in my current test machine I am only using 100Mbit, in a real situation I will use 1Gbit network.

I am thinking of building a client with Pentium M and use an external power supply to make the machine really small and quiet.

I am defenately interested if it is possible to make a better price in a group buy.

Anders

[_Demo_]

I have already done a similar thing with a linux client. You need to install a nfs server on the sagetv server and install another copy of sagetv in a new home directory (note that you need to have a second license and activate the second copy using the client computer). You then install a tftp server and configure pxelinux (http://syslinux.zytor.com/pxe.php) to boot the kernel with the root file system as the nfs partition.

If any of you is interested I could post a more complete guide.

_Demo_

[alon24]

I would like a more complete explenation on this please.

I would like to create a linux small client and I have a gig net card.
I want to mod a small cd and boot a client of it(cd player - yamaha)

[AndyS]

I'd forgotten about PXE - that does seem like the way to go and I've done it before. However, what I've seen in the past is that you get the original image back every time you restart, so wiz.bin and sageclient.properties changes would get lost. How do these PXE solutions deal with storage of volatile data?

Andy.

[AndersNolberger]

Originally Posted by AndyS

I'd forgotten about PXE - that does seem like the way to go and I've done it before. However, what I've seen in the past is that you get the original image back every time you restart, so wiz.bin and sageclient.properties changes would get lost. How do these PXE solutions deal with storage of volatile data?

Andy.

With Ardence Desktop you can use a dedicated image for each client and all changes will be saved to that image. The computer behaves exactly as it does with a local hard disk but instead everything is read/written to a file on the server. The server computer can be any 2000/XP/2003 machine.

Anders

[AboveUnrefined]

Originally Posted by AndyS

I'm wondering what kind of disk activity takes place in the Client, specifically what writes. I know that wiz.bin and sageclient.properties get written away but what else is there? I'm thinking that it would be cool to create a diskless client using an EPIA-MII and a compact-flash card to hold the OS, but it would only work well if the number of writes to the card were kept to a low number.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Andy.

The other recommendations are really awesome but to do this you'd fist have to get the MII to boot from the provided CF slot (if you're planning this, I know it's easier to do with linux but from what I was reading you need to get a totally different BIOS for the board and tweak that out to make it work the way you want without using some other form of media to get it to boot - or just use a CF -> IDE adapter). After that I'd make a ramdisk for any write cycles sage may need as to avoid wear on the card, you could do symlinks for that... I'm curious to know if you're successful doing something like this because in the near future I'll be doing something similar either through PXE or CF... I want to keep the machine wireless so I think CF will be the way I'll be going (and I want to keep it on a 512mb CF, no larger).

[krutaw]

Originally Posted by AndyS

I'd forgotten about PXE - that does seem like the way to go and I've done it before. However, what I've seen in the past is that you get the original image back every time you restart, so wiz.bin and sageclient.properties changes would get lost. How do these PXE solutions deal with storage of volatile data?

Andy.

I had thought about having a single static image that had the basic configuration and then script in the necessary files for each sage client so that the client would be basically bulletproof. Then a simple shutdown script could be run to backup the wiz.bin and properties files so that any changes made would keep for the next time.

More conveluted than what Anders said, but I think Windows (and the sage client) would be more resilient.

[krutaw]

Originally Posted by _Demo_

I have already done a similar thing with a linux client. You need to install a nfs server on the sagetv server and install another copy of sagetv in a new home directory (note that you need to have a second license and activate the second copy using the client computer). You then install a tftp server and configure pxelinux (http://syslinux.zytor.com/pxe.php) to boot the kernel with the root file system as the nfs partition.

If any of you is interested I could post a more complete guide.

_Demo_

I thought about doing this once we had a linux client available, but until that day comes, I'm gonna have to stick with Winders.

Though, I can't complain too much, as support for drivers is more robust and mainstream in Windows than Linux. *SHRUG*

[AndersNolberger]

Originally Posted by krutaw

I had thought about having a single static image that had the basic configuration and then script in the necessary files for each sage client so that the client would be basically bulletproof. Then a simple shutdown script could be run to backup the wiz.bin and properties files so that any changes made would keep for the next time.

More conveluted than what Anders said, but I think Windows (and the sage client) would be more resilient.

Actually I thing Ardence has support for something like that but I have not tested how they do it. It is ment to be used in a big network where everyone boots the same image.

Anders

[krutaw]

Originally Posted by AndersNolberger

Actually I thing Ardence has support for something like that but I have not tested how they do it. It is ment to be used in a big network where everyone boots the same image.

Anders

OMG. I saw it in person for the first time today, and I gotta say that I've *EXTREMELY* impressed. You were absolutely correct about what the list price is for clients, $250 / client, and I think it was $600 / server (with both being required.)

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too expensive for most people for this type of use, however, for a work type environment, it's so freakin' cool and justifyable. I really dig the integration with AD that they have for the same static machine to be able to have different machine accounts.

Anywho... Sorry to have hijack'd the thread considering this is way too expensive for home use.

[PGPfan]

Andy, did you see my post regarding AVS having done a 'group buy' on an earlier version of this product? It's definately too expensive IF we are stuck paying what corporations pay, but it IS possible to get it cheaper. The question is, are there enough folks here interested in a 'group buy' to actually make it worth pursueing?

-PGPfan

[AndersNolberger]

Originally Posted by krutaw

You were absolutely correct about what the list price is for clients, $250 / client, and I think it was $600 / server (with both being required.)

I am about to buy this and I have been quoted approximately $250 (1625 dkk + tax) for the whole solution for one client. In my email conversation with a danish reseller for Ardence they say:

"OBS. Du betaler jo ikke for "Serveren" til dine klienter!"
which means
"OBS. You do not pay for the server for your clients!".

When you buy more then 10 clients the licensing becomes different but the actual price per client should be lower.

This is not exactly free either, but for a silent computer that is something I am ready to pay.

If enough people are interested I can ask for a price if we buy together.

Anders

[PGPfan]

Hi Anders,

Perhaps you could talk to your distributor in advance and ask what we might be able to arrange for:

Server and 5 clients is xxx.xx
Each additional client is xxx.xx

Pricing for the following packages:
1-5 'packages' for xxx.xx
6-12 'packages' for xxx.xx
12-20 'packages' for xxx.xx
20+ 'packages' for xxx.xx

One 'package' would constitute 1-Server and 5-Clients.

Maybe this might help stimulate some interest here.

-PGPfan

[AboveUnrefined]

I am about to buy this and I have been quoted approximately $250

Why would you want to go full blown PXE? That is really meant for POS and corporate environments where security is an absolute must... the big thing about a PXE system is if someone steals a computer all they're going to get is how to boot the system in the environment it's in.

For $250 you could buy a pretty big CF card with an IDE->CF adapter or just a USB flash drive and use nLite to shrink your XP installation....

I guess my whole thing is that I get that doing a PXE is neat, but I don't think it justifies dropping $250 + just to do something overkill like that, it's not even expandable unless you drop more money into licences... then you also get into bugs that might exist, etc...

[PGPfan]

There are MANY reasons that this would be desireable. If you don't see a need, you aren't being forced into it. As for CF, it just not meant to be used to boot from regardless of wether or not you can get an CF/IDE adapter. I've tried that numerous times before and performance in general is poor at best. This is why there is a recognized need for device like the I-Ram.

-PGPfan

[krutaw]

Originally Posted by PGPfan

Andy, did you see my post regarding AVS having done a 'group buy' on an earlier version of this product? It's definately too expensive IF we are stuck paying what corporations pay, but it IS possible to get it cheaper. The question is, are there enough folks here interested in a 'group buy' to actually make it worth pursueing?

-PGPfan

Actually, corporations will pay significantly less for this type of solution. When it comes right down to it, you'd have to come up with 10's of thousands of people to get them to cut a pricebreak like what you're talking about.

[PGPfan]

Actually Andy, that's not correct. AVSforum DID a groupbuy (with about 20 people participating) and what I posted (like $200-$250 for a server and 5 client license) was what they actually paid for. Due to personal reasons I couldn't participate, but was planning on it so I'm well aware of the costs involved.

Granted this was when the company was called "Venturcom" and the product was "BXP" but it IS the same exact thing. The upside for the company is simple, they get the 'word out' about their product that could generate future revenue. Downside is that they don't make a big profit on these FEW sales. Most companies will do such a thing, knowing that the HTPC market will have absolutely NO impact on their current sales, but the exposure of their software just might.

As Anders stated above also, the software isn't as expensive as you've been told, at least not if you look around a little bit.

-PGPfan