BeyondTV vs. RTV PCE, GBPVR, MythTV, SageTV, and MCE

[dvasco]

I started this thread on AVSforum

After finally making and using an HTPC with GBPVR I can say it is missing a few features that maybe even BeyondTV, MythTV, SageTV, and MCE are missing. I will be updating this as I learn more about each software and their individual features and limitations. A spreadsheet will be in the works. Any large or small detail that can be provided will be appreciated. The number of asterisks indicate personal importance.

The following are a mix of features RTV 55xx has and what RTV PCE may have. Hopefully RTV PCE will have most of the RTV 55xx, except what has been stated it will not have.
1. Remembering last position in a show for resuming at later time. *****
2. Slow-motion playback ***
3. Notification that the software is going to start recording something ***
4. Show|Nav™: ***
5. Previous/Last ****
6. Return to Live **
7. Overlap Manager (this can actually be fixed in most HTPC software with a second tuner and using padding and conflict management) **
8. Very long buffer, even with show changes on same channel. **
9. Notification that show is buffered and data will be lost on a channel change. ****
10. Predictable recording*** (Again, HTPC fix is to use multiple tuners and conflict management)
11. So far, of the HTPC software only MCE has support for Closed Captioning. All others are hacks for PVR-250/350. The CC on GBPVR is bothersome. SageTV CC might be good. I haven't tried it yet ****
12. Auto ComSkip

Features RTV 55xx doesn't have and RTV PCE may not have and other HTPC software does.
1. Integrated free realtime remote web admin of recordings with the ability to cancel a recording (without plugins or 3rd party software, ie Wirns and DVArchive. my.replaytv.com is not realtime and is too slow) *****
2. Integrated DVD player. *****
3. Save buffer to a recording. ***
4. Weather plugin ***

What none of them have.
1. Audio normalization across the board for archived shows, recorded shows, buffered "LiveTV", DVD and music.

Developments since first post are BeyondTV4 webadmin sucks. Based on price, features, and design I think ReplayTV PCE is too expensive over the longterm even if it does provide all of the features possible. I am not a Linux user so MythTV is not a choice for me even though it looks really good. SageTV 5 seems excellent for only $80 but is missing parental control over imported media. GBPVR is great for being free and even if they charged up to $80 it would still be a good choice. Why would I go with MCE 2005 when SageTV and GBPVR exist?

I still need help. I have question marks on the spreadsheet included in HTPC files. The zip file is an xls spreadsheet.

[blade]

What is Show|Nav??

Sage doesn't use a buffer, LiveTV is recorded the same as a scheduled recording.

#6 Takes you to the end of a recording in progress (catches you up to Live). It's supposed to already be fixed for future releases so that it takes you back to where you left off watching when you return to LiveTV.

#7 Not sure what you want there. Sage will automatically remove padding for back to back favorites on the same channel so they can be recorded and there is a conflict manager when something can't be scheduled. Doesn't remove padding for shows on different channels.

#8 Doesn't use a buffer so not a problem.

#9 Same as above.

#13 Once again not sure exactly what you're asking.

#14 It's not free, but there is a placeshifter client that allows you to connect to your server and gives you the same user interface as a regular client. If your server is powerful enough it can transcode the video so that you can watch it across the net. If you're just looking for a web interface of course you have the webserver plugin you've already noted.

[mayamaniac]

Looks like SageTV is the product for you since most of the features, if not all, with the asterisks are fully supported in SageTV. So download the trial and give it a shot.

[dvasco]

Originally Posted by blade

What is Show|Nav??

Sage doesn't use a buffer, LiveTV is recorded the same as a scheduled recording.

#6 Takes you to the end of a recording in progress (catches you up to Live). It's supposed to already be fixed for future releases so that it takes you back to where you left off watching when you return to LiveTV.

#7 Not sure what you want there. Sage will automatically remove padding for back to back favorites on the same channel so they can be recorded and there is a conflict manager when something can't be scheduled. Doesn't remove padding for shows on different channels.

#8 Doesn't use a buffer so not a problem.

#9 Same as above.

#13 Once again not sure exactly what you're asking.

#14 It's not free, but there is a placeshifter client that allows you to connect to your server and gives you the same user interface as a regular client. If your server is powerful enough it can transcode the video so that you can watch it across the net. If you're just looking for a web interface of course you have the webserver plugin you've already noted.

Thanks for replying. I hope you can answer my questions.

ShowNav in the ReplayTV 5xxx lets me jump ahead in a show to a specific point. This is not really necessary since I can also jump ahead a specific amount of time by entering the time and skip button. I have it listed for the ReplayTV people. They can be picky.

If I am watching a channel like Discovery on LiveTV but I did not set up the recording it automatically saves the show in my recordings? If I don't change the channel or exit LiveTV when that show is over is a new recording made?


#6 wasn't really important since I plan on using 2 tuners. 1 for OTA. I have it listed for the ReplayTV people.


#7 I don't think this will be important once I have 2 tuners. I have it listed for the ReplayTV people. It is for when shows start at 8:05 and end at 9:05.

#8 This was actually a good thing since LiveTV couldn't be saved. If SageTV is working as I think you are saying then all is good.

#9 If I only had 1 tuner and I exited LiveTV would it continue to record? What if I started watching another channel? Will it warn me something else is being recorded. Most households have multiple viewers and they could easily change a channel once someone steps out of the room for a minute.


#13 This is something that is planned and specifics aren't given in www.replaytv.com They only give a diagram. This could be the software knowing that a series has changed timeslots or it could be knowing Discovery and those channels show the same thing 2 times in the same night and therefore conflicts can be resolved easily by using a different timeslot.

#14 The webserver is good enough.

[dvasco]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

Looks like SageTV is the product for you since most of the features, if not all, with the asterisks are fully supported in SageTV. So download the trial and give it a shot.

I tried it on a computer that has no tuner so I couldn't even see the guide and all that. GBPVR allows for installation and full use, except for recording and watching TV. Same with BeyondTV4. I may try it on the computer with the tuner but first there is an audio squeak from my PVR-350 I need to fix.

[mayamaniac]

there is a null tuner you can install so that it emulates a fake tuner so you can setup the tuner and guide.

[nielm]

Originally Posted by dvasco

ShowNav in the ReplayTV 5xxx lets me jump ahead in a show to a specific point.

Time scroll command + FF/REW will do the equivalent of clicking/dragging the time bar. Sounds like what you want

If I am watching a channel like Discovery on LiveTV but I did not set up the recording it automatically saves the show in my recordings? If I don't change the channel or exit LiveTV when that show is over is a new recording made?

yes if you watch it in its entirity. If not, a partial recording is kept on disk which can be (depending on an option) automatically deleted shortly after.
You can also press RECORD and all that you have watched so far will be kept, and it will continue recording whatever else you do

#6: there is a LIVETV command which will jump to 'NOW' when watching LiveTV, or Start LiveTV at now which you can map to a remote button

#8 This was actually a good thing since LiveTV couldn't be saved. If SageTV is working as I think you are saying then all is good.

As each show viewed in liveTV is recorded into a separate file, the 'buffer' is as big as your HDD!

#9 If I only had 1 tuner and I exited LiveTV would it continue to record? What if I started watching another channel? Will it warn me something else is being recorded. Most households have multiple viewers and they could easily change a channel once someone steps out of the room for a minute.

see above: yes if you set it to record before exiting liveTV. If not, recording will stop, and if it is a partial recording, by default it will be deleted shortly after (this can be disabled)


#13 predictable recording:
Sage can suggest things to record based on your viewing habits (Intelligent recording / intelligent suggestions plugin). It needs some viewing history to train it.
It also does intelligent conflict management -- it knows that if there is a conflict and one of the shows is re-shown later, it will record the second show instead.


18 Audio normalization can be done with other tools such as reclock, or AC3filter

I believe 10 only works with specific capture hardware

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by dvasco

If I am watching a channel like Discovery on LiveTV but I did not set up the recording it automatically saves the show in my recordings? If I don't change the channel or exit LiveTV when that show is over is a new recording made?

BTW: this & a lot of other things are explained in the SageTV PDF manual, which is available as a separate download from the installer. But, if you've installed the program, you already have it.

What happens during Live TV is covered in the "SageTV Quick Start Guide" section, which starts on p. 20 for v5.

The manual is quite large, so I'm not suggesting you go read all of it at once, but in Adobe Reader, there is a Bookmarks area on the left where you can see all the various chapters, appendices, etc. You may see areas to check out based on the things listed there. It may help clear up some of your questions, or even give you an idea of what can be done besides those things on your list.

- Andy

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by dvasco

ShowNav in the ReplayTV 5xxx lets me jump ahead in a show to a specific point. This is not really necessary since I can also jump ahead a specific amount of time by entering the time and skip button. I have it listed for the ReplayTV people. They can be picky.

I wrote this plugin to do time specific jumps in a video. I am also thinking about enhancing it to do percentages as well as absolute and relative times.

BobP.

[waynedunham]

RE: Show/Nav

I'm a ReplayTV user (2 5500's upped to 100gb's, and a 3030 and 2020 upped to 60gb's) and a SageTV user. The import that BobP mentions directly above was written after a request I made. (Thanks again Bob!) There are commercial skip plugins for SageTV to manually (similar to show/nav's way of doing it on the 5500's) or automatically ( similar to enabling commercial skip on RTV 4000's). However I was missing the ability to Quickskip/Replay 'x' minutes like I could on my Replays, as well as the ability to jump to 'x' minutes into a program (what I call the "I fell asleep about 15 minutes into the program" feature). I had become so used to doing it that way over my years with ReplayTV that I found myself no using SageTV's recordings, mostly because of that single missing UI feature.
With BobP's import it's now virtually the same as using the Replay's method.

[dvasco]

Originally Posted by waynedunham

RE: Show/Nav

I'm a ReplayTV user (2 5500's upped to 100gb's, and a 3030 and 2020 upped to 60gb's) and a SageTV user. The import that BobP mentions directly above was written after a request I made. (Thanks again Bob!) There are commercial skip plugins for SageTV to manually (similar to show/nav's way of doing it on the 5500's) or automatically ( similar to enabling commercial skip on RTV 4000's). However I was missing the ability to Quickskip/Replay 'x' minutes like I could on my Replays, as well as the ability to jump to 'x' minutes into a program (what I call the "I fell asleep about 15 minutes into the program" feature). I had become so used to doing it that way over my years with ReplayTV that I found myself no using SageTV's recordings, mostly because of that single missing UI feature.
With BobP's import it's now virtually the same as using the Replay's method.

I am glad you did that. It is already available on GBPVR and BTV so I figured SageTV already had it. Way to go guys.

[dvasco]

Originally Posted by Opus4

BTW: this & a lot of other things are explained in the SageTV PDF manual, which is available as a separate download from the installer. But, if you've installed the program, you already have it.

What happens during Live TV is covered in the "SageTV Quick Start Guide" section, which starts on p. 20 for v5.

The manual is quite large, so I'm not suggesting you go read all of it at once, but in Adobe Reader, there is a Bookmarks area on the left where you can see all the various chapters, appendices, etc. You may see areas to check out based on the things listed there. It may help clear up some of your questions, or even give you an idea of what can be done besides those things on your list.

- Andy

I had already read the manual, manually and with ctrl-f. Since it is so large it is tiring to go over and over for every single feature when also looking up features of BTV, MCE, and MythTV at the same time. I am not a lazy person that doesn't know how to use documentation. I want to thank those that are answering my questions whether I didn't see it in the manual or it wasn't covered in detail, or not covered at all. Anything I didn't point out is either a non-issue or available in all PVR's.

[dvasco]

Originally Posted by nielm

Time scroll command + FF/REW will do the equivalent of clicking/dragging the time bar. Sounds like what you want
yes if you watch it in its entirity. If not, a partial recording is kept on disk which can be (depending on an option) automatically deleted shortly after.
You can also press RECORD and all that you have watched so far will be kept, and it will continue recording whatever else you do

#6: there is a LIVETV command which will jump to 'NOW' when watching LiveTV, or Start LiveTV at now which you can map to a remote button

As each show viewed in liveTV is recorded into a separate file, the 'buffer' is as big as your HDD!
see above: yes if you set it to record before exiting liveTV. If not, recording will stop, and if it is a partial recording, by default it will be deleted shortly after (this can be disabled)


#13 predictable recording:
Sage can suggest things to record based on your viewing habits (Intelligent recording / intelligent suggestions plugin). It needs some viewing history to train it.
It also does intelligent conflict management -- it knows that if there is a conflict and one of the shows is re-shown later, it will record the second show instead.


18 Audio normalization can be done with other tools such as reclock, or AC3filter

I believe 10 only works with specific capture hardware

SageTV needs to put you on their payroll.

[dvasco]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

there is a null tuner you can install so that it emulates a fake tuner so you can setup the tuner and guide.

Thanks a million.

[dvasco]

Another question. If MusicaUno on TVEI channel 407 on DirecTV changes date, time, and sometimes is preempted will Sage figure that out once the guide reflects a change? GBPVR recorded something else last week in the normal MusicaUno timeslot because something else was on and the guide reflected that.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by dvasco

I started this thread on AVSforum

After finally making and using an HTPC with GBPVR I can say it is missing a few features that maybe even BeyondTV, MythTV, SageTV, and MCE are missing. I will be updating this as I learn more about each software and their individual features and limitations. A spreadsheet will be in the works. Any large or small detail that can be provided will be appreciated. The number of asterisks indicate personal importance.

The following are a mix of features RTV 55xx has and what RTV PCE may have. Hopefully RTV PCE will have most of the RTV 55xx, except what has been stated it will not have.
1. Remembering last position in a show for resuming at later time. *****

Sage does this.

2. Slow-motion playback ***

Sage has Pause/Step, but not slowmo.

3. Notification that the software is going to start recording something ***

Sage asks if it can change the channel if:
You're watching "LiveTV"
and
You have no free tuners.

4. Show|Nav™: ***

To quote blade: "What is Show|Nav??"

5. Previous/Last ****

Sage has this.

6. Return to Live **

Main menu - Watch LiveTV (I think that does it, but never watching live TV myself, I'm not sure.

7. Overlap Manager (this can actually be fixed in most HTPC software with a second tuner and using padding and conflict management) **

?? Sage has very advance conflict management/resolution.

8. Very long buffer, even with show changes on same channel. **

Sage records shows, it does not have a buffer.

9. Notification that show is buffered and data will be lost on a channel change. ****

Data isn't lost (immediately) on a channel change, an new Live recording is started.

10. Predictable recording*** (Again, HTPC fix is to use multiple tuners and conflict management)

I don't have a clue what this is.

12. Auto ComSkip

Sage has this through addons.

Features RTV 55xx doesn't have and RTV PCE may not have and other HTPC software does.
1. Integrated free realtime remote web admin of recordings with the ability to cancel a recording (without plugins or 3rd party software, ie Wirns and DVArchive. my.replaytv.com is not realtime and is too slow) *****

See neilm's webserver.

2. Integrated DVD player. *****

Sage has this.

3. Save buffer to a recording. ***

Sage has this (though it's not a "buffer").

4. Weather plugin ***

Sage has this.

[stevech]

As a typical user, I can offer to the propective SageTV user....

I installed and used
GBPVR: Wished it worked. The family approval on ease of use was horrible.
BeyondTV: OK if you want a one-size-fits-all and a somewhat static product.
SageTV: Was my choice. It has flaws. But now, the family approval factor is very high. This was our first PVR experience. 75% of TV viewing is now SageTV playback. This took several months. I have yet to customize the user menus for our preferences other than to add the gas-guage disks-full indicator. This is on the to do list, but doing this first using the SageTV PC client so my goofs won't affect the "mission critical" SageTV in the other room.

For Live TV: we always watch the real TV not Sage. It's too inconvenient to time-shift by 5 minutes to allow for commercial skipping. So during Live TV commercials, we hop to a different show.

PS: Another key factor in a high approval factor was fan noise of the PC near the TV. Now using a 1.8GHz laptop with Svideo out to main TV and two USB drives. It's silent. Solved that problem.