MVP and Powerline Networking: Incompatible?

[mdnttoker]

I'm hoping somebody out there has hit upon this issue already. I'm having problems with my MVP and Netgear HDX101 Powerline 200mbps adapters.

GB-PVR and SageTV work great when the MVP is plugged directly into my router, but as soon as I plug the MVP into the powerline adapters (plugged into the same outlet to get max rated speed), and the powerline to my router, the MVP won’t load (after a hard reboot: get the infinite Loading Application....).

Now here’s the interesting part: if I get SageTV or GB-PVR loaded onto the MVP while the MVP is directly connected to the router, turn the MVP off (sleep), and then move the MVP's ethernet connection to the Netgear powerline adapters without power cycling the MVP, everything works great after waking the MVP from sleep.

So I’ve determined the problem is the Netgear HDX101 Powerline adapters. Either because:

1) They don’t do half duplex (is there anyway to determine this?), or

2) The MVP refuses to search across more than 1 MAC address (each Powerline adapter has its own MAC address). Although, I have confirmed that the MVP does get its own IP address across these hardware MAC's.

3) Some other unknown issue…

The only thing that really bugs me though is that as long as I don’t power cycle the MVP, and load the firmware first via the router, it works fine until the next power cycle. So I’m not really sure where to go from here.

Has anyone experienced anything like this using powerline adapters?

Anyone have any suggestions on where to go from here? Any way to confirm half/full duplex operation?

Thanks,

-Dan

[Deadbolt]

Can you use ethereal on your SageTV server to see if it is getting the BootPs from the MVP and to monitor the TFTP transaction?

[shhas]

I don't the answer to your question but really would like to know what you think of this device and its throughput. I tested the previous version which was advertised at 85 mbps and could only get around 20 mbps in the basement.

What kind of speed do you get with this that is advertised at 200 mbps?

[mdnttoker]

I get about 20-30 mbps (actual throughput) between my family room and my office, which are on 2 different corners of the house. (200mbps only when plugged into the same outlet)

NOTE: The Hauppauge software loads up fine across the Netgear Powerline Routers, even after a hard power cycle.

SageTV and GB-PVR, however, will not load across the Powerline Routers after a hard power cycle. (but will via a soft power cycle after loaded via ethernet)

The problem I'm currently having is trying to figure out why SageTV and GB-PVR have a hard time on initial load after a power cycle, while the Hauppauge software does not.

-Dan

(I'm downloading Ethereal now...)

[mdnttoker]

Thanks for the reply Deadbolt.

I've attached two Ethereal logs I got from the Powerline and the DirectToRouter configurations. (linked due to size restrictions on this board). They both seem to imply its booting up fine (getting an initial IP and starting loading of the SageTV app.) I'm trying to learn what I'm doing with Ethereal from the WIKI, but if you get a chance Deadbolt, and you take a quick look?

The one thing I've noticed: after about packet #710 the Powerline log shows repeated UDP packets being sent over and over. The DirectToRouter log shows continued variations in the UDP packet content throughout.

I posted this Q at the GB-PVR boards too, and CSY posted an interesting explanation:
http://forums.gbpvr.com/showthread.p...060#post133060

But I'm still trying to figure out why the Hauppauge software GUI loads fine.

Thanks!
-Dan

MVP DirectToRouter Ethereal logs:
http://www.mysharebox.com/dl.php?key=1393002

MVP via PowerLine Ethereal logs:
http://www.mysharebox.com/dl.php?key=8015995

[mdnttoker]

I downloaded Qcheck and tested the connection between my MVP and Server in 2 different ways. (The MVP is connected to a switch port on my Linksys WRT54GL running DD-WRT firmware).

1) Linksys WRT54GL configured as a wireless bridge: SageTV gets to the "Booting" screen and then hangs. Qcheck notes ~5% UDP streaming packet loss between WRT router and the gb-pvr server.

2) Linksys WRT54GL connected to Netgear HDX101 powerline routers: SageTV: I get the infinite "Loading Application" screen. But in this configuration, Qcheck notes 0% UDP streaming packet loss between WRT router and the gb-pvr server.

What does the 0% UDP packet loss tell me? Would a duplex mis-match cause UDP packet loss? Is there any other reason that SageTV is refusing to load across the new Netgear HDX101 Powerline routers given that Qcheck returns zero UDP packetloss across the network?

Thanks,
Dan

[enthilzha]

Dan,

Can you repost your ethereal captures? I do network analysis & design for a living and would be happy to look at captures to figure out what is going on. I'm having similiar issues with a wireless MVP. If I hook things up PC->crossover cable->MVP everything works fine, if either the PC or the MVP become wireless the MVP always gets stuck at "Loading Application...".

I've seen a lot of posts about packet loss / network errors but I don't think this is the root cause of the problem. I'm sure there are some folks out there with existing wired/wireless network issues but I've seen a lot of posts that make it sound like people with rock solid networks are STILL having problems with the MVP. My hunch is that the MVP is extremely picky at some point in its boot process and if it doesn't receive a specific server response it doesn't retry and just dies.

I can't finish analysis on my own setup until I can borrow a wireless analysis appliance from my office (tomorrow). In the mean time I'd be happy to take a look at your captures and let you know what I find.

[mdnttoker]

Originally Posted by enthilzha

Dan,

Can you repost your ethereal captures? I do network analysis & design for a living and would be happy to look at captures to figure out what is going on. I'm having similiar issues with a wireless MVP. If I hook things up PC->crossover cable->MVP everything works fine, if either the PC or the MVP become wireless the MVP always gets stuck at "Loading Application...".

I've seen a lot of posts about packet loss / network errors but I don't think this is the root cause of the problem. I'm sure there are some folks out there with existing wired/wireless network issues but I've seen a lot of posts that make it sound like people with rock solid networks are STILL having problems with the MVP. My hunch is that the MVP is extremely picky at some point in its boot process and if it doesn't receive a specific server response it doesn't retry and just dies.

I can't finish analysis on my own setup until I can borrow a wireless analysis appliance from my office (tomorrow). In the mean time I'd be happy to take a look at your captures and let you know what I find.

Thanks for the offer. I'm going to wait until I get my Dell Managed Switch in on Tuesday so I can do some port mirroring on the switch the MVP is connected to. That way I can compare the data coming out of the MVP to the data being seen by the SageTV Server machine.

Right now, the MVP and Sage Server are seperated by a pair of Netgear HDX101 Powerline routers. I'm curious to see if they're not passing along something req'd by Sage.

I'm leaning towards it being a problem with Sage's TFTP implementation, because GB-PVR and Hauppauge's software loads fine across the powerline routers.

I'm a bit of a noob in regards to Raw packet captures, so I'd love to have you take a look at some Ethereal logs once I get them.

Thanks,
Dan

[mdnttoker]

Just as a final follow-up, I was able to get the HDX101 powerline routers to work fine with the MVP once I put a DELL 8-port switch in between the MVP and the powerline routers.

http://www.dell.com/content/products...en&s=bsd&cs=04

Still bothers me that it took another $80 high-performance switch to get this setup to work. I'm guessing it has something to do with the way the MVP boots up.

You would think that the MVP + Powerline networking would be a natural combination given that most residences aren't wired w/Ethernet.

And just to let everyone know, even with the A/C, microwave, and cordless phones on, I get a minimum of about 20mbps from one end of the house to another with these routers.

Plenty of bandwidth for std. definition TV.

-Dan

(EDIT: Oops, spoke to soon, back to the same old infinite Loading Application. This is killing me!)

[enthilzha]

Glad to hear things are working for you. I found a work around for my own setup by installing the Hauppage MVP software, diabling SageTV's server function and then my wireless MVP works flawlessly and is getting ~58dBm of signal strength. This really makes me think something is going on with Sage's implementation so I'm going to open an official support request.

[mdnttoker]

The MVP boots up via TFTP served UDP packets, so a lost packet could spell doom for the boot-up process. I'm assuming a more robust TFTP server would fix most of these boot-up issues in Sage.

See, for example, GB-PVR:
http://forums.gbpvr.com/showthread.php?t=18679&page=3

Any comment Sage?

-Dan

[enthilzha]

I agree with you on the TFTP bootup - my own ethereal captures show the same thing. Here is the question I'd love to answer - if I use the Hauppage MVP software over my wireless link everything works fine. If I try using the SageTV extender feature over the SAME wireless link I get stuck at "LOADING APPLICATION...". I've repeated this process dozens of times with the same results. If I had an underlying wireless networking issue I would assume that packets wouldn't be dropped only when using Sage. This is what makes me think there might be something on Sage's end that needs to be addressed. The packet captures I've analyzed when booting the MVP from Sage show a LOT of UDP traffic going between the Sage server and the MVP but at a certain point it gets stuck in a loop sending the same UDP string back and forth in an infinte loop - no evidence of packet loss. Assuming UDP packet loss during a TFP transfer the entire transfer should fail, not get stuck in a loop. I'll be interested in what Sage has to say regarding the support request I opened up.

Until then I'm still a hopeless Sage addict. Sage - if there is assistance I can provide in terms of network analysis please let me know. I'm more than happy to volunteer my time for such an awesome product

[mdnttoker]

That's the exact same problem I was having. I got the infinite "Loading Application" screen and Ethereal showed infinite loop of UDP packets being sent to the MVP.

I sent in my Ethereal captures to Sage and they said that "a certain UDP packet wasn't being seen by the SageTV server."

Not sure how Sage could fix this if its a problem with the MVP.

-Dan

[timnelsonic]

I had the same issue and found that if I gave the MVP a LONG time to boot up -- sometimes up to two hours -- the Sage "application" would eventually load. After that, it worked flawlessly, but obviously a two hour wait isn't practical. BTW, the throughput on the powerline adapters is great. Everything else I use them for works fine...everything but Sage.

I contacted Sage tech support and they admitted it was a known issue and they didn't know how to fix it. Incidentally, it didn't sound like they were trying very hard to fix it so don't hold your breath on this one.

BTW, I was a big Sage fan, but I finally threw in the towel and went over to the dark side (Windows MCE). I was getting tired of the numerous small things that almost, but don't quite, work in Sage. It's a great app, but takes way too much tinkering.

I miss the flexibility of Sage, but MCE is MUCH more solid. And yes, it works with the Powerline adapters.

[mdnttoker]

Originally Posted by timnelsonic

I had the same issue and found that if I gave the MVP a LONG time to boot up -- sometimes up to two hours -- the Sage "application" would eventually load. After that, it worked flawlessly, but obviously a two hour wait isn't practical. BTW, the throughput on the powerline adapters is great. Everything else I use them for works fine...everything but Sage.

I contacted Sage tech support and they admitted it was a known issue and they didn't know how to fix it. Incidentally, it didn't sound like they were trying very hard to fix it so don't hold your breath on this one.

BTW, I was a big Sage fan, but I finally threw in the towel and went over to the dark side (Windows MCE). I was getting tired of the numerous small things that almost, but don't quite, work in Sage. It's a great app, but takes way too much tinkering.

I miss the flexibility of Sage, but MCE is MUCH more solid. And yes, it works with the Powerline adapters.

<rant>That's the one thing I'm very surprised about. The 200mbps powerline networking gear would seem to be a great fit for MVP/Sage. I'm running a bunch of network captures at the developers request, but if Sage were serious about their product working they'd buy a pair themselves and make the powerline router tests part of the firmware qualification tests. </rant>

I have found one solid work-around though. My MVP is plugged into an 8-port switch, I do the initial load by plugging my laptop into hte switch and loading Sage onto the MVP. I then put the MVP to sleep, unplug the laptop, and turn on the Sage Service on my Sage Server upstairs.

Once coming out of sleep, the Sage software on the MVP finds the sage server and runs great.

Ideally though, it'd be nice if I didn't need this hack...

-Dan

[mdnttoker]

Originally Posted by jds23

Or you could buy them a pair and send 'em to them.

Didn't these things just come out? Give it some time, if it can be worked out, I am sure it will be.

From my end, Sage does work and works great, so I think they are fairly serious about its development.

Heh...I know, I suppose the wife ragging me about spending a $100 for software that "doesn't work" got me worked up.

Don't get me wrong, I've been very impressed so far when it does work. And I know they have no control over the crap networking implementation by Hauppauge.

Anyway, if anyone is interested, here are the network captures I sent in to Sage tech support:

Sage Server is 192.168.0.3
MVP is 192.168.0.14

1st Capture: Network capture from the SageTV Server side of the powerline routers (using the SageTV server itself):

http://d.turboupload.com/d/943845/Sa...esnt.pcap.html

2nd Capture: Network capture from the MVP side of the powerline routers (using port mirroring and a laptop to capture data):

http://d.turboupload.com/d/943879/MV...Load.pcap.html

3rd Capture: MVP with Sage loaded via a laptop connected to the same switch as the MVP, MVP put to sleep, the laptop was removed, and SageTV loads fine from the Sage Server upstairs upon coming out of sleep:

http://d.turboupload.com/d/943903/MV...oute.pcap.html

-Dan

[mdnttoker]

Just thought I'd update this thread.

I've now updated to Sage 6 beta, and the MVP is now connecting and loading just fine over the HDX101 powerline adapters.

Just a note: I also improved the connection by enabling Spanning Tree Protocol on the router. The Netgear powerline devices were generating these packets, so I thought I'd enable it on the router. Seemed to help a bit.

-Dan

[rickgillyon]

Originally Posted by timnelsonic

I miss the flexibility of Sage, but MCE is MUCH more solid. And yes, it works with the Powerline adapters.

So what integrated MVP solution do you use with MCE?

[rickgillyon]

Originally Posted by mdnttoker

NOTE: The Hauppauge software loads up fine across the Netgear Powerline Routers, even after a hard power cycle.
SageTV and GB-PVR, however, will not load across the Powerline Routers after a hard power cycle.

I may be wrong here, but isn't the Hauppauge software in flash whereas the Sage/GBPVR needs to be loaded?

[12three45]

No, there is no software on the MVP, it is loaded even with Hauppage.