Replay TV PC Edition

[SprDtyF350]

Saw this while wasting time.. All I gotta ask is why??


http://www.replaytv.com/product_details.asp

[jbarr]

Good question.

<soapbox>
ReplayPC is a product that should have come out years ago, and I feel its release will simply be too little, too late. I'm not knocking the product as such, it's just that I've been a HUGE ReplayTV (the hardware, standalone version) proponent for years, and have evangelized ReplayTV to countless people, but a couple years ago, I had to give up. ReplayTV is a fine product, but they simply dropped the ball on development. Yes, improvements and enhancements were made, but they were evolutionary instead of revolutionary. ReplayTV led the pack in from a technical perspective in so many circles, but failed to maintain that edge.

ReplayPC, from the Web site, appears to be a decent product, and if you are familiar with ReplayTV, it should be simple to use. But it still seems limited in many ways, especially when compared to SageTV or MythTV.

To me, SageTV is what ReplayPC/ReplayTV could have been had its developers and executives listened to their customers.
</soapbox>

Sorry for the rant. I really do hope ReplayPC is successful and useful, but I'm putting my dollars and time into SageTV at this point.

[stevech]

On the topic of marketing - I noted today that BeyondTV is on the shelves at Fry's. SageTV isn't.

Probably unimportant in terms of sales. But it does get exposure.

[SprDtyF350]

Originally Posted by stevech

On the topic of marketing - I noted today that BeyondTV is on the shelves at Fry's. SageTV isn't.

Probably unimportant in terms of sales. But it does get exposure.

I really don't understand the whole BTV thing. It was used in Maximum PC mag for the HTPC they built, it is advertised all over, and now sold in stores. It is my opinion (I purchased BTV, Beyond Media, and BTV link a few years ago) that BTV is the worst supported, most feature lacking PVR software out there. Yet, it gets exposure. Isn't that kind of how the inferior VHS format beat the much better Beta? It bothers me when a big magazine does an article and sings praises for a program without giving any others a fair shake. Wonder how much BTV paid them??

My question in regards to Replay Tv is more of a why would I want to spend $20.00 a year for something I get with Sage as part of the deal? Replay was my favorite in terms of features, and I believe it had a good chance to be the better in comparison to Tivo. Just don't think it was marketed very well, and I had a problem paying for the guide.

[blade]

Originally Posted by SprDtyF350

I really don't understand the whole BTV thing. It was used in Maximum PC mag for the HTPC they built, it is advertised all over, and now sold in stores. It is my opinion (I purchased BTV, Beyond Media, and BTV link a few years ago) that BTV is the worst supported, most feature lacking PVR software out there. Yet, it gets exposure. Isn't that kind of how the inferior VHS format beat the much better Beta? It bothers me when a big magazine does an article and sings praises for a program without giving any others a fair shake. Wonder how much BTV paid them??

My question in regards to Replay Tv is more of a why would I want to spend $20.00 a year for something I get with Sage as part of the deal? Replay was my favorite in terms of features, and I believe it had a good chance to be the better in comparison to Tivo. Just don't think it was marketed very well, and I had a problem paying for the guide.

In business it isn't about who has the best product. We've all seen it too many times to think otherwise.

[mayamaniac]

I don't think SageTV does a lot of advertising, if any at all. Snapstream and microsoft spend a lot of money to market their products, and of course they get more exposures. It's the same deal with Tivo and ReplayTV. ReplayTV is arguably a better product but does less advertising as Tivo, and so Tivo became better well known as a PVR/DVR product.

SageTV is for the power user because it offers powerful features, yet their prices are competitive. But at a glance, the SageTV default interface is plain and boring looking compare to Tivo, MCE, or BTV. And for people new to PVR/DVR softwares and hardware, "looks" can be a persuasive buying decision factor. There are very few resources where you can read a complete unbiased in-depth review of the major PVR products available. So its hard to decide which product is better without spending lots of time researching on the internet. Those people who do the research, well most of them ended up here.

[stevech]

A wise veteran in engineering told me years ago, and I now more than ever see how true it is:

"The Genius Isn't In The Invention, It's In The Marketing".

(assuming $$$$ is the objective).

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by stevech

A wise veteran in engineering told me years ago, and I now than ever see how true it is:

"The Genius Isn't In The Invention, It's In The Marketing".

(assuming $$$$ is the objective).

Minimizing issues and blaming marketing isn't the way to get to a best of breed product. Sage has it's strengths and weaknesses. For example, some people like the default GUI, but others really prefer MCE's flashiness or BTV;s look. And until the latest beta, Sage's multimedia support was awful. And we still don't have the kinds of plugins that MCE has, like My Movies 2, that make playing archived DVD's really simple.

Sage is very cool, but it is very complex to set up as a full blown media center. BTV actually has some advantages here.

I think Sage is listening - the V6 beta is proof of that. To really expand the market, Sage needs to simplify configuration, improve the GUI, especially in areas of media support. The larger the base of users, the more plugins will be developed that help Sage compete even more aggressively.

But if we just blame marketing and the fact that users are too stupid to see why Sage isn't superior, Sage will die on the vine. You have to have a certain critical mass in this business to survive, at least in a non open source model. Sage is close, but not there yet.

Thanks,
Mike

[blade]

Originally Posted by mikesm

Minimizing issues and blaming marketing isn't the way to get to a best of breed product. Sage has it's strengths and weaknesses. For example, some people like the default GUI, but others really prefer MCE's flashiness or BTV;s look. And until the latest beta, Sage's multimedia support was awful. And we still don't have the kinds of plugins that MCE has, like My Movies 2, that make playing archived DVD's really simple.

All the software you named has its own benefits and drawbacks and areas that need improving. I haven't seen anyone say otherwise.

As I said before, having the superior product doesn't automatically equal success. You can have the best product in the world, but if people don't know it exists they're not going to buy it. I'm not saying how good the product is doesn't matter, but it's not everything nor is it usually the most important thing.

Right now the PVR industry is in the early stages of growth. During this stage it is not about who has the best product. There are plenty of potential customers who don't own a PVR and know very little about them. It is all about getting the word out and educating the masses as to the existance of their product. Right now increasing market share is easy and there is little direct competition. It is foolish for companies to begin price wars and directly compete with one another right now because there are still plenty of potential customers and fighting over existing customers would reduce profit margins.

Once the industry begins to mature competition will increase when almost everyone that is going to purchase a PVR owns one already. Growing market share becomes more difficult and taking it from your competitors becomes necessary. Consumers understand the technology better and this is when you begin to see more direct comparisions between products. Marketing still plays a huge role during this stage as does existing market share.

With software there are very few cost in "producing" additional units so you don't really have the point of diminishing returns that you see in traditional industries. Also profitability is going to scale better with increased sales due to the low to non-existant costs of "producing" additional units.

This means market share will have a much greater effect on profitability than in traditional industries. This makes it even more likely that the market leader will also be the low cost leader during the early stages. This means more cash to pump into marketing and/or development than their competitors. The low cost leader also has the ability to reduce the price of their product to levels that their competition can't meet without forcing them into very slim profit margins or even into the red.

We all know that MCE is going to be the market leader. The question is who is going to be #2.

I think Sage is listening - the V6 beta is proof of that. To really expand the market, Sage needs to simplify configuration, improve the GUI, especially in areas of media support. The larger the base of users, the more plugins will be developed that help Sage compete even more aggressively.

But if we just blame marketing and the fact that users are too stupid to see why Sage isn't superior, Sage will die on the vine. You have to have a certain critical mass in this business to survive, at least in a non open source model. Sage is close, but not there yet.

I agree that Sage needs to simplify the installation and setup. I also believe they really need to get more OEMs carrying preconfigured machines because so many potential customers aren't capable of building their own. It goes without saying that they also need to continue improving the product.

I disagree with your thoughts on marketing and user intelligence though. I don't think you really understand how important marketing is. Early adopters tend to be more techinically savy and research products before buying. I assume you're probably one of these people as are most who frequent this forum. These types of people often don't realize how little the average consumer understands about the products and how unwilling they are to do the research required to fully understand and choose which product will best fit their needs. The majority are going to make a purchase based on brand recognition or a review by an "independent" magazine, website, etc....

If you don't think marketing is important then how do you explain when websites and magazines do product reviews of MythTV, MCE, BTV, and don't even include Sage in the roundup? If people haven't heard of your product they sure aren't going to review or recommend it no matter how good it is.

[stevech]

And Sage needs to simply

reword the menu choices to de-geek them
reorganize the menus into a logical structure - most-oft-used atop
reduce number of button-pushes for the most common actions

The WAF here is OK, but only because MCE or TiVo has never been in this house.

For some reason, Sage seems to think the early adopter users have been doing this, so they don't need to do so; this of course doesn't work for the plug-and-play users

[mayamaniac]

I believe the SageTV UI needs improvements, but that does not mean its less functional then BTV, MCE, or Tivo. The SageTV is VERY functional once you spend a week or so using it. Heck, I'm even getting used to the new media center UI now too. The just need to "pretty it up" a bit to improve first impressions of potential buyers.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by blade

...

I disagree with your thoughts on marketing and user intelligence though. I don't think you really understand how important marketing is. Early adopters tend to be more techinically savy and research products before buying. I assume you're probably one of these people as are most who frequent this forum. These types of people often don't realize how little the average consumer understands about the products and how unwilling they are to do the research required to fully understand and choose which product will best fit their needs. The majority are going to make a purchase based on brand recognition or a review by an "independent" magazine, website, etc....

If you don't think marketing is important then how do you explain when websites and magazines do product reviews of MythTV, MCE, BTV, and don't even include Sage in the roundup? If people haven't heard of your product they sure aren't going to review or recommend it no matter how good it is.

Actually, I understand the importance of marketing very well. The problem is that to atrract the retail distribution channels that BTV and others use, the base level complexity, GUI, and functionality has to all be there and available in the default settings. That means no editing properties files, loading new STV's, etc... It all has to work out of the box with a minimum of hassle. Otherwise the returns will be so large that no retailer will put up with it. BTV isn't a great example - once every two months or so you'll see it go on sale at fry's for free after rebate. Not a good sign. But at least BTV is simpler to set up, and has things like commercial skip in it's base package, plus beyond media has DVD archiving and meta data support, etc...

As to why Sage isn't reviewed, quite honestly I think people read this forum, see the complexity in the product, don't see the distribution in retail (I mean, reviewers don't review things that readers can't buy), and conclude it's not an important platform. Myth gets reviewed because of the support for commercial skip and builtin media ripping, which are great features, and it's open source. Quite honestly, I don't know why media portal doesn't get more play, as it has a lot of the benefits of open source packages, but doesn't get into all the linux hair. BTW, I have built and installed Myth systems, and am a unix hack by trade, but video decode support in linux lags significantly behind windows - no purevideo for linux...

Once it gets simplified, then I think you can make the case for retail distribution, and that will trigger a lot of reviews etc... Sage is making good progress, but some of the needed changes make make some of the defaults incompatible with what some folks here are used to. How much change in this direction are people willing to put up with to grow share?

Just my opinion.

Thanks,
Mike

[blade]

Originally Posted by mikesm

The problem is that to atrract the retail distribution channels that BTV and others use, the base level complexity, GUI, and functionality has to all be there and available in the default settings. That means no editing properties files, loading new STV's, etc... It all has to work out of the box with a minimum of hassle. Otherwise the returns will be so large that no retailer will put up with it.

I think most everyone agrees with this.

Setting up any HTPC software requires a lot more technical savy than the average consumer posses. It wouldn't be a problem for an OEM to set up a generic hardware configuration with Sage installed that just "works out of the box". With the right hardware Sage is very easy to setup.

As to why Sage isn't reviewed, quite honestly I think people read this forum, see the complexity in the product, don't see the distribution in retail (I mean, reviewers don't review things that readers can't buy), and conclude it's not an important platform.

If you check any product's forum you're going to see problems with setup. Sage took about 15 minutes to setup the first time I ever installed it. You're making out like the base installation is difficult and it isn't unless you have hardware or software conflicts. Also Sage can be purchased online so readers can buy the product.

Once it gets simplified, then I think you can make the case for retail distribution, and that will trigger a lot of reviews etc...

I agree it needs simplifying.

You keep referring to retail distribution as if that is the only way to market a product and that isn't the case. I agree it would be good exposure though. Personally I learned of Sage when HTPCnews.com did an indepth review of it and even included step by step installation instructions complete with pics. I was sold right then. There is nothing stopping Sage from approaching reviewers about their product or contacting those that do reviews and do not include Sage or give incorrect information. They may already do this, but you have to be very aggressive.

Sage is making good progress, but some of the needed changes make make some of the defaults incompatible with what some folks here are used to. How much change in this direction are people willing to put up with to grow share?

I don't really see this as a problem. Sage is very customizable and having the defaults simplier and more user friendly isn't a big deal as long as "power users" can still dig down and do their thing.