STV vs. XML

[Slack]

What's the difference and why do I get so confused?

When I first installed SageMC16x9. I followed all the directions, and believe I imported SageMC16x9.xml into the default skin. And it all worked a treat.

Then after putzing around with tuners, which dumps you back into the default 'STV'. I somehow loaded the SaceMC16x9.STV. Which now, no longer shows an option to load the SageMC16x9.XML.

I find that SageMC16x9.STV hides or removes some of the tweakability I found with the SageMC16x9.XML. REC Icon etc... HD Icon in the guides etc...I had installed color coded guide bars, and glassy Icons & such but when the STV loads they all seem to disappear.

Now, even when I load the SageTV3 (or similar) STV (supposedely the default) I still don;t see an option for importing xml, just STV. When I select it it seems to filter out the XML.

[ke6guj]

shut down sage and manually edit the sage.properties or sageclient.properties STV line to SageTV3.xml, then restart Sage. Once you do that, you can choose other .xml files.

Delete the sagetv3.stv and sageMC16x9.stv files. They are obsolete and no longer needed.

Those stv files don't know about .xml files, so they don't list them as options.

[dflachbart]

Originally Posted by Slack

I find that SageMC16x9.STV hides or removes some of the tweakability I found with the SageMC16x9.XML. REC Icon etc... HD Icon in the guides etc...I had installed color coded guide bars, and glassy Icons & such but when the STV loads they all seem to disappear.

SageMC16x9.STV is a very old version, probably left over from a previous install

Now, even when I load the SageTV3 (or similar) STV (supposedely the default) I still don;t see an option for importing xml, just STV. When I select it it seems to filter out the XML.

• shut down the UI
• open SageClient.properties (or Sage.properties if you are using server in non-service mode) and find the line STV=... and change SageMC_169.stv to SageMC_169.xml
• restart, everything should be back to normal

Just delete SageMC_169.stv (and SageTV3.stv), STV files are old and evil...

Edit: Jack was faster

Dirk

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by Slack

What's the difference and why do I get so confused?

When I first installed SageMC16x9. I followed all the directions, and believe I imported SageMC16x9.xml into the default skin. And it all worked a treat.

Then after putzing around with tuners, which dumps you back into the default 'STV'. I somehow loaded the SaceMC16x9.STV. Which now, no longer shows an option to load the SageMC16x9.XML.

I find that SageMC16x9.STV hides or removes some of the tweakability I found with the SageMC16x9.XML. REC Icon etc... HD Icon in the guides etc...I had installed color coded guide bars, and glassy Icons & such but when the STV loads they all seem to disappear.

Now, even when I load the SageTV3 (or similar) STV (supposedely the default) I still don;t see an option for importing xml, just STV. When I select it it seems to filter out the XML.

STV extension is the old SageTV Application Package extension.
You should think of these as Sage "skins" or "themes". This changes mostly what Sage looks like and it's functionallity. DELETE THESE THAT END IN STV! These are old and are limiting and will prevent you from loading the new STV "skins" or "themes".

XML is the NEW extension for these STV SageTV Application Package files.
(People have begun to refer to them as STVs.) Again, think of these as Sage "skins" or "themes". It's a look and functionallity.

NEVER IMPORT A STV !
You don't import a STV ("skin") in the default STV and most other STVs. You LOAD an STV. When you load an STV its extension ends in .xml.

STVi extension is the SageTV Application Package Import.
Think of these as a "plug-in" or "add-on" and is usually meant to add a single new function or application to SageTV. (Example: Video Edit, Netflix, MovieTimes, etc.)

NEVER LOAD AN STVi !
Never load an STVi. Bad things can happens. ALWAYS import an STVi. Let associate the "i" with Import.

SAGEMC IS AN EXCEPTION TO THE RULES !
SageMC was designed for particular ease of use and for use with a remote only. (For the most part) Because of that SageMC was never designed to handle Imports. That's why you don't see .STVi extensions in there. But what it CAN see is the .xml extension. Which is also the default extension for STV also. And this is where the confusion comes in. In SageMC, when importing a plugin you will see STV and Imports because they both use the .XML extension. You just need to be careful and understand what you are doing. Know the name of the import you wish to use. Look for imports specifically designed for SageMC. They will say so.

When you've hosed yourself, stop SageTV. (Quit, don't sleep) and modify the properties files and put this line back in:

STV=C\:\\Program Files\\SageTV\\SageTV\\STVs\\SageTV3\\SageTV3.xml

(this works for the default install.)

Restart Sage and you will have the default skin loaded.

I think a couple of things need to happen to reduce the confusion. Change the reference from STV to maybe something like STVAP or refer to them generically as a "skin" or a "theme" to be less confusing. And NO MORE .STV extensions in any of the downloads.
Refer to the imports as STVIM or refer to them generically as "plug-ins" or "add-ons" to be less confusing.

SageMC should either follow the standard of .XML for skins and .STVI for imports OR use its own extension for imports such as .SMCI to reduce the confusion.

Just some thoughts on reducing the confusion and let me know if I was inaccurate in any of the explanations above.

And I hoped this helped reduce the confusion.


Gerry

EDIT: You can see why I was slower.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by gplasky

I think a couple of things need to happen to reduce the confusion. Change the reference from STV to maybe something like STVAP or refer to them generically as a "skin" or a "theme" to be less confusing. And NO MORE .STV extensions in any of the downloads.
Refer to the imports as STVIM or refer to them generically as "plug-ins" or "add-ons" to be less confusing.

While I agree that the STV/STVI terminology is somewhat confusing, it's become pretty ingrained over the past couple of years. My feeling is that any attempt to change it now would only increase confusion, given people's habits of speech and the large number of existing posts that use those terms. Better to stick with the historical terminology that everybody can agree on (flawed though it may be) than to introduce a competing standard that perhaps only a few people will adopt.

Also the word "theme" already has a specific technical meaning in Studio, so using it as a synonym for "skin" or "STV" in addition to its technical meaning is probably not a good idea.

At this point there's no good reason for users of V4 or later to keep old .stv files around, so perhaps the simplest solution to the STV-vs.-XML issue is to fix the SageTV installer (and/or the SageMC installer) to rename *.stv to *.stv.obsolete, or something along those lines. Then they won't show up in the Load dialog and people won't be tempted to use them by mistake.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

While I agree that the STV/STVI terminology is somewhat confusing, it's become pretty ingrained over the past couple of years. My feeling is that any attempt to change it now would only increase confusion, given people's habits of speech and the large number of existing posts that use those terms. Better to stick with the historical terminology that everybody can agree on (flawed though it may be) than to introduce a competing standard that perhaps only a few people will adopt.

Also the word "theme" already has a specific technical meaning in Studio, so using it as a synonym for "skin" or "STV" in addition to its technical meaning is probably not a good idea.

At this point there's no good reason for users of V4 or later to keep old .stv files around, so perhaps the simplest solution to the STV-vs.-XML issue is to fix the SageTV installer (and/or the SageMC installer) to rename *.stv to *.stv.obsolete, or something along those lines. Then they won't show up in the Load dialog and people won't be tempted to use them by mistake.

I'll agree that getting rid of the files .STV makes all the sense in the world and should be done.

Theme was thrown out there as a suggestion and I completely forgot about its use in Studio. So that's no-go. Maybe refer too it as Sage TV "Personality".

If we can seperate the names from the extensions both then and now it looks like:

STV = .xml file for defining the look and functionality of SageTV. You would LOAD this file

STVI = .STVI file for defining one or more functions not found in the core SageTV. You would IMPORT this file.


Now if SageMC can come around and maybe consider:
SMCI = .SMCI file for defining one or more functions not found in the core SageMC. You would IMPORT this file.

And the only reason I'm suggesting a different import extension for SageMC is because it IS a different animal and for the most part the import should be specifically written for SageMC only.

Gerry


EDIT: Also meant to thank you for all the work you have done with your Studio tools. Great work and they are becoming indispensable.

[Slack]

Thought I would get blasted for asking such a stupid question.
Or for not searching first. ("XML vs STV" produces boatloads of hits)


In short, you dudes are awesome.

[dflachbart]

Originally Posted by gplasky

STV extension is the old SageTV Application Package extension.
You should think of these as Sage "skins" or "themes". This changes mostly what Sage looks like and it's functionallity. DELETE THESE THAT END IN STV! These are old and are limiting and will prevent you from loading the new STV "skins" or "themes".

XML is the NEW extension for these STV SageTV Application Package files.
(People have begun to refer to them as STVs.) Again, think of these as Sage "skins" or "themes". It's a look and functionallity.

NEVER IMPORT A STV !
You don't import a STV ("skin") in the default STV and most other STVs. You LOAD an STV. When you load an STV its extension ends in .xml.

STVi extension is the SageTV Application Package Import.
Think of these as a "plug-in" or "add-on" and is usually meant to add a single new function or application to SageTV. (Example: Video Edit, Netflix, MovieTimes, etc.)

NEVER LOAD AN STVi !
Never load an STVi. Bad things can happens. ALWAYS import an STVi. Let associate the "i" with Import.

SAGEMC IS AN EXCEPTION TO THE RULES !
SageMC was designed for particular ease of use and for use with a remote only. (For the most part) Because of that SageMC was never designed to handle Imports. That's why you don't see .STVi extensions in there. But what it CAN see is the .xml extension. Which is also the default extension for STV also. And this is where the confusion comes in. In SageMC, when importing a plugin you will see STV and Imports because they both use the .XML extension. You just need to be careful and understand what you are doing. Know the name of the import you wish to use. Look for imports specifically designed for SageMC. They will say so.

When you've hosed yourself, stop SageTV. (Quit, don't sleep) and modify the properties files and put this line back in:

STV=C\:\\Program Files\\SageTV\\SageTV\\STVs\\SageTV3\\SageTV3.xml

(this works for the default install.)

Restart Sage and you will have the default skin loaded.

Excellent write-up, Gerry. I added it to the first post in the SageMC thread, it might help some of the newcomers.

Dirk