Serious Issues with Sage

[jmxp]

Here are my list of current issues with Sage:

1) HD Stuttering on 1080i
2) Video Renderer - Only options are Overlay for HD and Default for SD. VMR9 looks bad with both HD and SD.
3) Sonic Decoders - This decoder pack gives the best PQ, but it crashes Sage and the PC all together
4) Discreet program guides for HD tuners and SD tuners


Issue 1:
I know there are other threads on this, but I'm piling on. Sage stutters playing back 1080i hd content. I can play the same file over the same network over the same PC over the same codecs with WMP9.x and I get no stuttering.

I've tried Purevideo with Default/Overlay/VMR9 and the only one that yields acceptable PQ is Overlay. Default/VMR9 both cause CPU utilization to spike and stuttering to render the clip unwatchable. I've tried every combination of options I can come up with on the Nvideo decoder with no discernible difference. FSE doesn't appear to have an affect one way or the other.

I've recently found that if I boot the machine and fire up some HD content using Purevideo and Overlay, I can get "close" to acceptable 1080i viewing with an occasional stutter, but then if I go load up a ripped DVD or MP3 from the Media Center and go back to watching HD content, I get horrible stuttering...sufficient enough to require a reboot.

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Issue 2:
SD content looks best with the Default Renderer and Nvidia decoders. VMR9 and Overlay both look like crap for SD which is frustrating because I have to switch between Overlay and Default when I go from HD to SD. AND...when I use Default or Overlay, I get graphic artifacts consistently. ie If I browse the program guide and select a show, I'll see a faded artifact of the program guide, or the status bar on the screen while my content is playing very regularly. The quickest way to dispense with the artifacts is to modify the aspect ratio which repaints the screen and wipes the artifacts.

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Issue 3:
I've installed Sonic's DVD Pack which yields excellent PQ for HD and SD with Default and Overlay. This decoder also provides low CPU utilization with HD content, but EVERY TIME I timeshift a few presses in a row, it either crashes Sage or the Entire PC reboots. I REALLY thought I had something here regarding consistent quality for SD and HD using one renderer option until I timeshifted and my whole PC just reboot itself.

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Issue 4:
The EPG arrangement for HD leaves a lot to be desired. In order to get the Channel Numbers above 125 for HD channels (200, 201, 202, 203, 204) and the associated programming I have to select the same program guide for the HD tuners and the digital tuners. Of course, the problem here is the digital tuners can't get HD content and I don't have SD channels mapped for the HD tuners. There should be an option in the Program Guide channel setup to say which tuners get which channels. ie 201 can be tuned by tuner 1 and 2 only, not 3 and 4. I saw a suggestion to get the program guide for a neighboring town and just use that for the HD tuners, and I've tried that. This solves the problem for Prime Time programming, but all non-primetime (ie late night) shows are wrong. ie the guide says Seinfeld is playing, but when I tune to that channel I get Cheers?@%


Hardware:
Abit NF-M2 Micro ATX, Onboard GF6150 and RealTek Toslink out to my DD/DTS receiver. Seagate Barracuda SATAIII 3g/s, 1GB 2x512MB DDR800, AMD AM2-3200.

Tuners:
Server Tuners are 2xATI Theater Pro 550's for SD and 1xHDHomerun Dual Network Tuner for HD

Software:
Latest Purevideo, Latest Forceware, DX9.0c, Sage v6.0.19, Windows XP Pro/SP1, Java 5 Update 10.

[real_per]

Originally Posted by jmxp

Here are my list of current issues with Sage:

1) HD Stuttering on 1080i
2) Video Renderer - Only options are Overlay for HD and Default for SD. VMR9 looks bad with both HD and SD.
3) Sonic Decoders - This decoder pack gives the best PQ, but it crashes Sage and the PC all together
4) Discreet program guides for HD tuners and SD tuners


Issue 1:
I know there are other threads on this, but I'm piling on. Sage stutters playing back 1080i hd content. I can play the same file over the same network over the same PC over the same codecs with WMP9.x and I get no stuttering.

I've tried Purevideo with Default/Overlay/VMR9 and the only one that yields acceptable PQ is Overlay. Default/VMR9 both cause CPU utilization to spike and stuttering to render the clip unwatchable. I've tried every combination of options I can come up with on the Nvideo decoder with no discernible difference. FSE doesn't appear to have an affect one way or the other.

I've recently found that if I boot the machine and fire up some HD content using Purevideo and Overlay, I can get "close" to acceptable 1080i viewing with an occasional stutter, but then if I go load up a ripped DVD or MP3 from the Media Center and go back to watching HD content, I get horrible stuttering...sufficient enough to require a reboot.

__________________________________

Issue 2:
SD content looks best with the Default Renderer and Nvidia decoders. VMR9 and Overlay both look like crap for SD which is frustrating because I have to switch between Overlay and Default when I go from HD to SD. AND...when I use Default or Overlay, I get graphic artifacts consistently. ie If I browse the program guide and select a show, I'll see a faded artifact of the program guide, or the status bar on the screen while my content is playing very regularly. The quickest way to dispense with the artifacts is to modify the aspect ratio which repaints the screen and wipes the artifacts.

Which Processor have you got ?
The 6150 chip isn't excactly designed for 1080i video rendering.
http://www.nvidia.co.uk/page/purevideo_support.html

Also, it might not necessarily be the best idea, to use the latest drivers. Several people have apparently experienced problems using the latest Forceware drivers... see this thread; http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&page=37&pp=30

[jmxp]

Originally Posted by real_per

Which Processor have you got ?
The 6150 chip isn't excactly designed for 1080i video rendering.
[URL="http://www.nvidia.co.uk/page/purevideo_support.html[/URL]

Also, it might not necessarily be the best idea, to use the latest drivers. Several people have apparently experienced problems Forceware drivers... see this thread; [URL="http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=601451&page=37&pp=30"[/URL]

I can play 1080i via WMP no problem with this configuration. The stuttering is tied to Sage.

Same answer on the drivers. I can load 1080i content over the network in Windows Media Player and get absolutely no stuttering.

CPU is an Athlon 64 3200.

I read the Nvidia link. I don't see in that chart where the 6150 isn't supposed to support 1080i content but that may be my inability to interpret the chart. Can you elaborate?

[real_per]

Originally Posted by jmxp

I can play 1080i via WMP no problem with this configuration. The stuttering is tied to Sage.

Same answer on the drivers. I can load 1080i content over the network in Windows Media Player and get absolutely no stuttering.

CPU is an Athlon 64 3200.

I read the Nvidia link. I don't see in that chart where the 6150 isn't supposed to support 1080i content but that may be my inability to interpret the chart. Can you elaborate?

If it only applies to Sage, there are probably people here that can help you better than I.

I'm probably going to buy the same motherboard as you have, and from reading about it, i just see a lot of people having problems displaying HD in MCE etc., but who could play them "outside". All using the 6150 chip.

[jmxp]

FYI On this Motherboard, I had nasty instability issues with OCZ ram. I had to underclock and over-volt the CPU to get it stable. Once I did that it was very stable. I recently replaced the OCZ DDR800 with g.skill ddr800 and that seems to have cured the requirement to underclock/overvolt.

This is classic Abit though. Feature rich but tempermental. Once you get the right configuration on them, they tend to be rock solid, but it's a challenge most of the time to get them to that state.

I contrast their stuff with Epox which generally works awesome out of the box (it even took that OCZ ram without a hiccup), but their feature set is very vanilla.

[real_per]

Originally Posted by jmxp

FYI On this Motherboard, I had nasty instability issues with OCZ ram. I had to underclock and over-volt the CPU to get it stable. Once I did that it was very stable. I recently replaced the OCZ DDR800 with g.skill ddr800 and that seems to have cured the requirement to underclock/overvolt.

Thanks alot. I've heard bad things about OCZ ram too, so i'll definitely get some G-skill.

Hope, you get your picture problems sorted.

[Jesse]

Hi,

My most recent client build uses the Abit NF-M2 nView mobo. FWIW it has been rock solid using Kingston DDR2 800. There was no memory on the Abit site for the board that I could find at newegg so I used the config utility on the Kingston site to find it.

Jesse

[jmxp]

I've got no complaints with the Abit now that the RAM has been switched out.

I would appreciate some commentary from our friends at Sage on the issues I've outlined though.

[GKusnick]

You do realize this is a user-to-user forum, right? If you need an answer from Sage tech support, your best bet is to contact them directly.

[real_per]

Originally Posted by Jesse

Hi,

My most recent client build uses the Abit NF-M2 nView mobo. FWIW it has been rock solid using Kingston DDR2 800. There was no memory on the Abit site for the board that I could find at newegg so I used the config utility on the Kingston site to find it.

Jesse

Actually it's here: http://www2.abit.com.tw/test-report/nf-m2-nview.htm?2

[astribli]

What's a real shame is that people keep starting up new threads. There are a lot of threads already about issues with stuttering, cpu spiking, lock ups, etc. They all seem to be related to version 6 as well. I think a new thread starts up about every 3 days

[PhillJones]

I'm sure astribli meant to say.

There's a big thread on stuttering during HD playback here.

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22282

If it's any consolation, you're not alone. Lots of people can't get sage to playback HD, they're investigating the issue.

[cummings66]

And if they took the reports from several beta testers seriously who said it stuttered they would not have released Version 6 into the wild. They didn't take us serious and look at the mess it's caused. I've said it many times before and I'll say it again, Version 6 should not have been released as broken as it is for HD playback.

The registry fix mentioned in the other thread helped but did not eliminate the problem, but it's a start. Like many others I have good playback outside of Sage and nothing but frustration inside of it, yet it's better now than before due to the registry fix.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by cummings66

And if they took the reports from several beta testers seriously who said it stuttered they would not have released Version 6 into the wild. They didn't take us serious and look at the mess it's caused. I've said it many times before and I'll say it again, Version 6 should not have been released as broken as it is for HD playback.

The registry fix mentioned in the other thread helped but did not eliminate the problem, but it's a start. Like many others I have good playback outside of Sage and nothing but frustration inside of it, yet it's better now than before due to the registry fix.

It's not broken for everyone. It runs fine on my nForce2 board with an AMD XP3000+ and a 6600GT and nVidia decoder. This was used by private testers before it went to general testers. YMMV.


Gerry

[cummings66]

You would be correct, there are some who can run it. Yet you have to admit that more and more people are reporting the exact same issues with HD playback.

I know when I reported mine I had already heard of a couple cases and do you know what tech support told me? They said they had not heard of it and asked for the error log.

The problem was, it was not the first time they heard of it. That to me says they ignored the problem or they would have admitted to it. In case you can't tell that upsets me. I prefer honesty.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by cummings66

You would be correct, there are some who can run it. Yet you have to admit that more and more people are reporting the exact same issues with HD playback.

I know when I reported mine I had already heard of a couple cases and do you know what tech support told me? They said they had not heard of it and asked for the error log.

The problem was, it was not the first time they heard of it. That to me says they ignored the problem or they would have admitted to it. In case you can't tell that upsets me. I prefer honesty.

Support doesn't necessarily read and follow the forum. The only way they can hear of it is when someone submits a support ticket. There is no dishonesty going on. These are user to user forums. These are not Tech Support forums. That is why it is SO important to submit the Support requests.
Support

Gerry

[cummings66]

From what I gathered they had submitted them, of course I could be wrong about that but I thought it was done.

I know I've preached about it, you must submit those requests or you're not going to get a fix and griping about it here doesn't do any good.

[salsbst]

As one of the users who had trouble with HD under v6 where no trouble was evident under v5, I'll respond.

Yes, I posted my problem to the boards when I found it (fairly late in the beta cycle, I'm cautious) and yes, I reported it to Sage through the bug report mechanism.

Yes, I was unhappy with the level of attention that I felt it received. I was also unhappy with the fact that users who were not experiencing similar problems felt the need to defend the beta on the boards because they and other users they knew of didn't have problems.

I still don't think v6 is quite where v5 was on rendering in my environment.

I do know that SageTV LLC can't test every software/hardware combination out there, not even close. It would be pointless to try.

On the other hand, I thought I had built up some reputation for reporting only real problems and for reporting them on systems that were otherwise stable.

For whatever reason (I think CES played a big part), mine and other reports of rendering hiccups were seemingly shrugged off prior to the release of v6.

Since then, I believe they have worked on the problem. I know that the problems we had in our home are mostly gone due to the registry fix Jeff posted in another thread.

Do I think v6 should have gone out the door in the state it was in? No.

Do I still wonder about why the registry fix mostly solved my problem, while no patch has been released? Yes.

Am I still frustrated that I'm running Nvidia's decoder in film deinterlace mode and that I can see the deinterlacing problems when I'm trying to watch TV? Yes.

Am I angry? Not so much anymore.

I am worried that SageTV may be under pressure to deliver features at the cost of quality. There are some very large sharks swimming in these waters nowadays. SageTV was and is the obvious choice for quality PVR, for those who don't turn into bowls of jelly when they see flashy interfaces. But there is a lot of integrating that SageTV needs to support, and I understand why attention to a subset of users' rendering problems has been neglected while they chase random proprietary video/audio formats.

It sucks, but that's what happens when major market movers decide that they want to occupy your market space (is there an 800 lb. gorilla in the room, yes you bet).

SageTV is a for-profit entity. I believe they are under increasing pressure from investors to show the money. I hope they can find a way. If, in the meantime, it means I have to rearrange my home network, reduce my resolution, move hard drives around, live with inferior deinterlacing, and sell my first-born, I'm willing to do most of that.

I don't yet have a first-born, and I might have hell to pay if I told my wife that we needed to replace the laptop that we use in the bedroom because SageTV v7 is messed up. Truth be told, I was close to this with v6. She's "mad as hell and ain't gonna take it no more" ("Network" reference, for the uninitiated, great movie). I'm just frustrated with the direction of the market. I've seen it coming all along, but I still can't accept it. Let there be no doubt, the home entertainment market is failing due to DRM concerns. Value is being left on the table, consumers and producers of entertainment are being deprived, cats are sleeping with dogs (ok, that might make a good YouTube clip).

Let me type on more thought, since I've rambled so far so fast... the major problem with PVR is the advertising model. Did you know that Studio 60 is about to be cancelled? Have you watched the show? It's a good show, not great, but really good. There aren't a lot of really well-put-together shows on TV anymore. TV needs to get a divorce from advertising. I'd be happy to pay for my entertainment television -- I just want to choose where and when I watch it.

DRM + advertising model + PVR = TV sucks

I would recommend that the next time a version is released, it gets substantially wider testing on the basic features of a PVR. You are not supposed to go backwards, as far as rendering goes, v6 went backwards for a number of us. That's not a good thing.

I'm done for now. Can't even be bothered to proofread what I've written. I know it's largely off topic, but whatever. I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore.

P.S. This is not directed at SageTV.

[salsbst]

I guess I forgot to include the <rant/> and <oneSheetToTheWind/> tags.

Suffice it to say that I think I understand why the rendering problems of some (me being one of them) may not trump the competitive pressures in the marketplace.

[jmxp]

Originally Posted by astribli

What's a real shame is that people keep starting up new threads. There are a lot of threads already about issues with stuttering, cpu spiking, lock ups, etc. They all seem to be related to version 6 as well. I think a new thread starts up about every 3 days

The shame is that Sage still does this after all these threads. Exposure is key in my opinion. The more people that call it out, the more people that see it *BEFORE* they buy this software, the more motivated Sage will be to fix it.

This is a major problem, it deserves exposure, and I started this thread out acknowledging that I'm piling on.

Great, they're looking at it. Where is the fix?