What's so bad about SageTV's UI?

[jominor]

Originally Posted by mlbdude

Everyone knows that SageTV has the best technology out there for PVR. However, MCE has more users and is growing much faster than SageTV. MCE users use MCE since it is powerful enough, looks good, and is easy to setup and use. I don't think you ever hear them claim they use it since it is more powerful than the alternatives.

If SageTV goes out of business because they did not put in the time to their UI and user experience that is simply LAME. I don't think personal opinion on UI's matter too much. We should be much more interested in seeing SageTV survive and flourish.

Well, I don't think a few disgruntled people who, to be frank interchange intuitiveness and taste will be the cause of any problems. MS is a tough company for the likes of IBM, Oracle, or Google to combat and they've got billions.

I would argue that Sage and all the rest are doing a great job considering their resources. What's ironic is that some of the people complaining about the UI would probably complain about the upgrade price.

Regardless, try changing the UI in MCE if you don't like it and see how far one would get!

[Opus4]

Someone mentioned the pop-up options dialogs having icons next to some commands... those icons usually indicate that there is a direct command to access that option w/o having to first use Select to see the dialog. Examples: use Play to watch the highlighted show, or use Info to jump to the detailed info for a show or view the sublist, etc. You can also use those direct commands while the dialog is open.

- Andy

[jominor]

Sage, IMO, has been very responsive to change, when that change adds value beyond taste.

Look at the shift from 1.4 to 2.0 and beyond.
Look at Studio.
Look at things like the watched or don't like icons.
Or the "Set all as watched" or "Set all as don't like."
Auto resetting the show indicator when you rewatch a show.


This is all the result of user feedback that added true value, that spanned users, thus moving from tastes to truly intuitive application usability and feedback.

[SHS]

mlbdude if MCE has more users and is growing much faster than SageTV then why is everday I get email ask about MCE Alternatives software becase that user can't do xyz thing or why this, why that.

[nielm]

Originally Posted by jominor

I was one of them. Originally, you selected a showand press the remote button, you watched the show. Now, you get a menu with more options.

Press Play instead of Select...

[mlbdude]

Originally Posted by SHS

mlbdude if MCE has more users and is growing much faster than SageTV then why is everday I get email ask about MCE Alternatives software becase that user can't do xyz thing or why this, why that.

Not sure. Maybe because out of the many MCE users there are a few power users that are looking for more? Maybe as MCE usage grows it will actually help SageTV in a way as well.

[jquinlan]

Originally Posted by jominor

But I don't want weather first because I don't use it everyday. I don't use pictures either or LiveTV. That's your taste, but not mine. The Default worked with my WAF for years before I changed it. And that was to remove or rename stuff.

My wife, no computer expert by any stretch had no problem understanding what "Sleep" means for example, which is why I renamed that option in Sage 5 back to sleep.

Exactly, that is why it needs to be updated to support the requests of the users and not require additional plug-ins to accomplish what people are doing. SageMC gives me the option to enable or disable menu options without a plug-in, the plug-in gives you more options like moving thing around, but again it required a plug-in or a change of the STV to accomplish it. It not about understanding, I think everybody can understand the SageUI menus, it is about desired use.

[bcjenkins]

Originally Posted by jominor

Well, I don't think a few disgruntled people who, to be frank interchange intuitiveness and taste will be the cause of any problems. MS is a tough company for the likes of IBM, Oracle, or Google to combat and they've got billions.

I would argue that Sage and all the rest are doing a great job considering their resources. What's ironic is that some of the people complaining about the UI would probably complain about the upgrade price.

Regardless, try changing the UI in MCE if you don't like it and see how far one would get!

I don't like the "look" of the UI, and I purchased upgrade price the first day it was published. I would even pay for a better looking UI too, if it justified the development costs/conversion/separation to themes. About the only reason I use SageMC over the default UI is because I can change the look of it. Niel's dynamic menus allows me to change the menu ordering to my personal likings.

B

[bcjenkins]

Originally Posted by mlbdude

Not sure. Maybe because out of the many MCE users there are a few power users that are looking for more? Maybe as MCE usage grows it will actually help SageTV in a way as well.

I cut my teeth on mce, came to Sage when I couldn't do multi-room without buying xbox or really expensive extenders. Also, native tuner limitation was a bust too.

B

[Halstead]

Sorry to be so quiet- I'm currently talking to the client that I did the usability study with about releasing some of the results here. If they say no, I'm afraid I won't be able to answer Stanger's (very reasonable) questions to me.

I can say this- I agree than much of the discussion here is really about taste and preference as opposed to usability. However, usability (or lack thereof) is fairly definable- it just requires an understanding of your market and users. One could make a very reasonable argument that SageTV's UI is perfect for it's current market- how much value is there for something just like TiVo, but requires me to assemble the PVR myself?

I will mention (after getting the OK from my client) one thing that came up over and over again with Sage- the ''back/last' functionality. CE interfaces with 'exit' or 'back' functionality generally have that function take the user 'up' a level in the UI. Alternatively but much less common is to have the function take the user to the most recent UI screen/activity. In our testing with novice PVR users (we tested no current MCE or BTV users) there was a tremendous frustration with the behavior of the back button as well as the left/right arrows of the remote (an MCE remote was used for all PVR software tests, and a series 2 TiVo remote was used for the TiVo tests)

One of the things you learn early on in market consulting (usually the hard way) is that your opinion, although interesting, may not be relevant. My own love of SageTV has much to do with my willingness to spend a night a month and a weekend every 9-12 months fixing/tweaking/upgrading my Media setup. For me it's a hobby that I love, and the members of my household enjoy the results. It's a different story for those that want to buy the software and have it work intuitively out of the box. SageTV just doesn't seem to deliver as well as some others in that regard.

I will post all of my SageTV tweaks, but I may not get to them before the weekend.

[sainswor99]

Still working on my list (not really; actually lurking at lunch), but some of the topics here intrigued me enough to post (again). As I think through some of my major concerns about the default UI, some basic precepts come to mind:

1. I bought Sage because it had a media center app built into it; it managed not only television but also music & photos. However, the interface is still very tv-centric. The media center app, while a great selling point, is still buried a couple clicks down.

2. The new features don't look or feel like the old features. IF you go into the media center, you introduce several new navigational elements that you don't have when watching TV. Go into the Google Video or YouTube, and the navigational structure changes again.

3. Most actions seem to be organized around the source of media you are interacting with, rather than what you want to do. For example, Archived Videos and Imported Videos are in the Media Center, Online videos are under the Online Services menu, and Live TV and Recorded Shows are at the home page; I just want to WATCH something. It would seem to me that there must be a better way to organize the information rather than on the origin of that information.

4. I believe that imitation may be a sincere form of flattery, but innovation sells. I don't think that BeyondTV or MCE have the best interfaces either; they all have their strengths, but I think SageTV needs to do a better job of creating a comprehensive media-centric approach (that doesn't necessarily resemble Media center or BeyondTV)

5. One-click to do something. The fewer clicks I have to do to get somewhere the better. Why can't I play a random list of all of my songs with one press of the play button? Why can't I click on a "Watch" button, and it present me with options to watch something like I watched the last time (e.g., LiveTV, vs Recorded Videos vs Photos, etc).

6. Organize sub activities on the same form as the current activity. For example, Refresh imported media is on the setup screen. I use Placeshifter for most of my watching without a remote; if I notice that for some reason my music list is incomplete, and I want to refresh it, there's an awful lot of menu navigation to do that. Why can't refresh imported media be in the media center?


More to come,
Stu

[Halstead]

Originally Posted by SHS

mlbdude if MCE has more users and is growing much faster than SageTV then why is everday I get email ask about MCE Alternatives software becase that user can't do xyz thing or why this, why that.

Because MCE is growing so fast everyday. A market leading solution like MCE can have a 'raising all boats' effect, as long as the competition brings things of value to the table, which SageTV clearly does.

I've talked to plenty of users for whom MCE was their first HTPC solution. As they began to hit the wall of MCE's limitations, they searched for alternatives, either in 3rd party MCE solutions or applications like SageTV.

If it wasn't for MCE, most of these people never would have found out about SageTV.

[jbarr]

Originally Posted by Opus4

Someone mentioned the pop-up options dialogs having icons next to some commands... those icons usually indicate that there is a direct command to access that option w/o having to first use Select to see the dialog. Examples: use Play to watch the highlighted show, or use Info to jump to the detailed info for a show or view the sublist, etc. You can also use those direct commands while the dialog is open.

Hadn't realized that. I'm learning a lot from this thread. I guess it's time to download the latest .pdf manual and kill some time re-reading it again....

[jominor]

Originally Posted by nielm

Press Play instead of Select...

I think I tried that. I'll try again...

[Edit]
Nope. Doesn't work.

[Goodspike]

I've never understood "Live TV" and in fact forgot it was there. It seems to be a choice to "watch random channel." I can't imagine why you'd ever hit that choice.

[jominor]

Originally Posted by Goodspike

I've never understood "Live TV" and in fact forgot it was there. It seems to be a choice to "watch random channel." I can't imagine why you'd ever hit that choice.

Especially if you have more than one tuner. Which one should you start watching?

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by Goodspike

I've never understood "Live TV" and in fact forgot it was there. It seems to be a choice to "watch random channel." I can't imagine why you'd ever hit that choice.

I believe it will bring up the last channel that was viewed similar to what you get when you turn on your TV. It probably bases viewed as the channel of the last video that was played back. This is also probably in the manual but it has been a while since I've read it too. This is the first thing I remove from the menu when I import NIELM's dynamic menus, however.

[tmiranda]

Funny - Several years ago Sage added the "live TV" button because people thought it was silly that there was no way to "watch live TV" without going to the guide.

BTW - "Watch Live TV" works just like turning on a regular TV, whatever channel was on when you turned off the TV comes back on.

[Halstead]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

Still working on my list (not really; actually lurking at lunch), but some of the topics here intrigued me enough to post (again). As I think through some of my major concerns about the default UI, some basic precepts come to mind:

1. I bought Sage because it had a media center app built into it; it managed not only television but also music & photos. However, the interface is still very tv-centric. The media center app, while a great selling point, is still buried a couple clicks down.

2. The new features don't look or feel like the old features. IF you go into the media center, you introduce several new navigational elements that you don't have when watching TV. Go into the Google Video or YouTube, and the navigational structure changes again.

3. Most actions seem to be organized around the source of media you are interacting with, rather than what you want to do. For example, Archived Videos and Imported Videos are in the Media Center, Online videos are under the Online Services menu, and Live TV and Recorded Shows are at the home page; I just want to WATCH something. It would seem to me that there must be a better way to organize the information rather than on the origin of that information.

4. I believe that imitation may be a sincere form of flattery, but innovation sells. I don't think that BeyondTV or MCE have the best interfaces either; they all have their strengths, but I think SageTV needs to do a better job of creating a comprehensive media-centric approach (that doesn't necessarily resemble Media center or BeyondTV)

5. One-click to do something. The fewer clicks I have to do to get somewhere the better. Why can't I play a random list of all of my songs with one press of the play button? Why can't I click on a "Watch" button, and it present me with options to watch something like I watched the last time (e.g., LiveTV, vs Recorded Videos vs Photos, etc).

6. Organize sub activities on the same form as the current activity. For example, Refresh imported media is on the setup screen. I use Placeshifter for most of my watching without a remote; if I notice that for some reason my music list is incomplete, and I want to refresh it, there's an awful lot of menu navigation to do that. Why can't refresh imported media be in the media center?


More to come,
Stu

Wow, great post. #s 1-3 are just soooo on the money (particularly #3). I can't tell you how many times my fiancee has asked me 'where is xxxxxx video? I can't find it!' and it's because she was looking in Recoded TV for something in Imported Videos or vice versa. I think recorded vs. imported should be filters, not different parts of the UI.

[Goodspike]

Originally Posted by tmiranda

Funny - Several years ago Sage added the "live TV" button because people thought it was silly that there was no way to "watch live TV" without going to the guide.

BTW - "Watch Live TV" works just like turning on a regular TV, whatever channel was on when you turned off the TV comes back on.

Does it remember that? If you only had one tuner, I'd guess it would be whatever channel something last recorded on, if that was after you'd watched TV. Too lazy to look it up though.