What's so bad about SageTV's UI?

[MeInMaui]

Originally Posted by Mark SS

Not looking to switch to MP, all to well aware of its short comings. Link was to highlight what can be done with a UI, albeit that being a prototype.

Actually I wasn't so much knocking MP. We've had run-ins with that particular skin author before, so you probably shouldn't even think about using any of her graphics. It got ugly last time.


Aloha,
Mike

[Mark SS]

Originally Posted by pawn

Sounds great. When do you get started?

Your point being? I was suggesting that if Sage have enhanced the capabilities of the UI, perhaps they should update the UI to use them. Obviously they can lay off until we've got DVB-S, DVB-S2 and CAM/CI support

[AngelofDeth]

I think his point is, if you want an interface like what you linked to, it can be done by the end user, IE YOU. You also asked why this doesn't already exist, I think the answer is probably the demand for something like that is low, with a small number of those actually having the ability to actually create it.

[OneThomas]

Folks - seems if you ask 50 different people what how they think the default user interface on SageTV should be organized, you'll get 50 different answers. I personally, like the UI exactly as it is. If I (or other users) really want something different, we can use the Studio to create something. Just my 2 cents....

[stevech]

given one is proficient at C, VB6, asm, how long would it take to learn and use Sage Studio?

[Halstead]

Originally Posted by AngelofDeth

I think his point is, if you want an interface like what you linked to, it can be done by the end user, IE YOU. You also asked why this doesn't already exist, I think the answer is probably the demand for something like that is low, with a small number of those actually having the ability to actually create it.

Originally Posted by OneThomas

Folks - seems if you ask 50 different people what how they think the default user interface on SageTV should be organized, you'll get 50 different answers. I personally, like the UI exactly as it is. If I (or other users) really want something different, we can use the Studio to create something. Just my 2 cents....

Actually, this is kind of the point of this thread, no? I don't think anybody is knocking SageTV's configurability (no sane person, anyway). The issue is the out-of-the box usability, which I think is far less than it should be. To wit:

- Inconsistent UI & control behavior (I offered the example of the back/exit button earlier in the thread, but there are others)
- Lack of integration between media modules, particularly newer ones
- Poorly managed application complexity (these two are well described by sainswor99 on page 3)

I think that SageTV v6's default UI is a lot like MS Office 2003- a lot of functionality has been added to the application over the past few versions, and it's feeling lass and less like a coherent user experience.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by stevech

given one is proficient at C, VB6, asm, how long would it take to learn and use Sage Studio?

For the fundamentals, probably not much longer than it takes to work through the tutorials in the Studio manual. Those exercises should teach you 90% of what you need to know to start tweaking the standard STV. Say a couple of hours for the tutorials, a day or two of experimentation to get the hang of it, maybe a week to produce something you can begin to feel proud of. (These are of course very rough guesses based on my own recollection of how long it took me. YMMV.)

Learning how to package up your tweaks in STVI form takes maybe another couple of days, depending on how disciplined you've been about segregating your new code from the existing code and keeping track of your changes as you go.

Learning everything you need to know to build a new STV from scratch is an ongoing project. I've been an avid Studio user for over a year now, and have probably done more weird stuff and pushed harder at the limits of Studio than almost anybody except Opus4, and I'm still discovering new subtleties.

Proficiency in a variety of programming languages certainly helps, but be aware that Studio is not really very much like the languages you mention. Lisp is perhaps the closest analogy, but even that doesn't really capture the flavor of Studio coding.

Best place to start the learning process is probably here.

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by stevech

given one is proficient at C, VB6, asm, how long would it take to learn and use Sage Studio?

I only knew COBOL before I started with SageTV Studio. Still by no means an expert but I can usually get what I want done in Studio. Took me about 6 months to feel comfortable. YMMV

[nick_l]

Originally Posted by BobPhoenix

Still by no means an expert but I can usually get what I want done in Studio. Took me about 6 months to feel comfortable. YMMV

Originally Posted by GKusnick

I've been an avid Studio user for over a year now, and have probably done more weird stuff and pushed harder at the limits of Studio than almost anybody except Opus4, and I'm still discovering new subtleties.

here.

These posts illustrate one of my points. Every time someone posts that something is wrong with the user interface someone else says check out so and so's STV. for a product that relies heavily on its user base for UI "innovations" that is one hell of a learning curve. Im not saying that there is anything wrong with studio, per se... but if you could separate out the pretty UI parts from the more difficult bits, imagine how many more people might contribute. By now many High Schools are teaching XML in there computer classes!!! This user base is a huge selling tool for Sage and it should be made as easy as possible to contribute to.

And as far as the interface not being important, consider the ipod. when the ipod came out there were already plenty of mp3 players out that were more open standards compliant, had more storage, did more (i.e. FM radio) than the ipod, but the ipod won the war. Why? It's attractive (to most) and simple to use.

For the people that say that the default interface isnt ugly, two words: IT IS. There are plenty of men that still rock mullets and plenty of women who still wear stretch pants, but that doesn't make them any less ugly. Unfortunately for many, our society has some accepted standards of beauty, be it for ourselves, our homes, cars, or even our software. For Sage, those 8bit graphics just arent cutting it anymore. Consider that many of the new potential sage customers may not even remember a world before Windows 98. Sage needs to keep up with them if it wants to compete long term. Additionally, for those that want to keep the current look, with the customazation of Sage, they still can.

BTW, im not trying to offend anyone, just trying to put in my two cents as plainly as possible, and Sage is still the best out there by far.


Nick

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by nick_l

There are plenty of men that still rock mullets and plenty of women who still wear stretch pants, but that doesn't make them any less ugly.

Kind of like Walmart at 2 AM. Except, you'll see lots of women that still rock mullets as well.

[tmiranda]

I still like the idea of shipping multiple STVs with Sage then during the install process let the user choose which one to use....

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by nick_l

...that is one hell of a learning curve.

Just to clarify: I never meant to say that it takes a year to learn to use Studio effectively. In fact I said you can be doing productive work within a week. But there are a lot of features in Studio, some of them accessible to beginners, and some meant for experts. Naturally it takes longer to discover and learn all the expert features, just like any other powerful tool. But that shouldn't discourage beginners from getting started.

And you don't have to know anything about XML to use Studio. It saves its files in XML form, but you never need to look at or understand the raw XML.

[FidgetyRat]

For me, I don't think the sage US is terrible. I have used SageMC since I started with sage mainly because of its customization options. I like the ability to filter videos and get nice icons to represent different things.

Mainly, (and sadly) the #1 reason is that I personally hate the 12h clock system and MC at least lets me force 24h on certain screens. Still no EPG though. ARGH!

Really though, Its hard to write down what I do or do not like about the UI. Its just something you (or the girly) feel comfortable using.

[sainswor99]

I don't know if I'd call it terrible; it's just not good. Big difference there.

I've been trying to think of a reasonable analogy to explain my concerns with the "thrown-together" feel of the stock UI after implementing a new feature, and the best I've come up with so far is: the car stereo.

Way back before CD's were mainstream, most cars came with a radio & a cassette deck. You could get a really spiffy car radio with a cassette deck (lots of blinky lights and stuff), but it was basically a radio. Most of these car stereo's operated the same way (so it was pretty intuitive), but limited in features.

To add a CD, you had a couple of choices. The easy way was to buy a CD cassette adapter, where you plugged a tape-like cartridge into the tape deck and plugged a portable CD player into the backside. Still reasonably intuitive, and some people liked having a separate unit to run the CD. You could even get a wired or wireless remote for your steering wheel to operate the CD. So to listen to a CD, you had to plug up the equipment, stick the adaptor in the deck, set the radio to a "tape" source, control the volume from the radio, and control the tracks from the remote. Manufacturers eventually started putting line-in plugs on to the radio face (because in-dash CD player were still pretty expensive). Eventually, however, in-dash CD players became the standard; a single set of controls (on the radio head) controlled the radio, the cassette deck, and the CD player.

Sage's implementation is kind of like having a cassette adapter & portable CD player, right out of the box. Sure, the basic controls are pretty intuitive (Live TV, Recordings, etc), and even the add-ons are reasonable, but they just don't flow well from one to the other. The Media Center looks like an add-on, as do Online Services. Great features to have; just wish it felt more integrated.

What happens when IPTV becomes more standard? Is it LiveTV or an Online Source? Should it matter? How about when they finally add a "Play CD option"? Is that in the Media Center, or somewhere else? What about Streaming radio?


Stu

[nick_l]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

Just to clarify: I never meant to say that it takes a year to learn to use Studio effectively. In fact I said you can be doing productive work within a week.

And you don't have to know anything about XML to use Studio. It saves its files in XML form, but you never need to look at or understand the raw XML.

I certainly never meant to misrepresent your comment. I do think that a week is still an awfully long time to have to spend on something that only has a single value (i.e. Making sage more attractive/useful). My point with xml is that most people already have at least some knowledge of it, so why not go there directly for the simpler things at least.

Nick

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by nick_l

I certainly never meant to misrepresent your comment. I do think that a week is still an awfully long time to have to spend on something that only has a single value (i.e. Making sage more attractive/useful). My point with xml is that most people already have at least some knowledge of it, so why not go there directly for the simpler things at least.

Nick

FWIW....

You can probably be up and doing "simple" things in an hour or two with Studio. Renaming buttons, adding or removing buttons, etc. That's all pretty simple, almost drag and drop (not quite).

And really a lot of the Sage UI is built on image files. You could do a lot to the UI by just replacing the images it ships with.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

Sage's implementation is kind of like having a cassette adapter & portable CD player, right out of the box. Sure, the basic controls are pretty intuitive (Live TV, Recordings, etc), and even the add-ons are reasonable, but they just don't flow well from one to the other. The Media Center looks like an add-on, as do Online Services. Great features to have; just wish it felt more integrated.

I guess the question is how, how do you integrate them better without just dumping everything into a single menu?

What happens when IPTV becomes more standard? Is it LiveTV or an Online Source?

Well IPTV isn't online (it's IP based, not internet based). Assuming there were a way to integrate it with Sage, I'd venture it would be configured like another source. Of course that depends on the level of integration possible.

Should it matter?

Yes, IMO. IPTV is basically the same use-theory as Cable, Satellite, or OTA, just a different delivery mechanism. GooTube is somthing entirely different.

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I guess the question is how, how do you integrate them better without just dumping everything into a single menu?

I already provided a possible solution further up the thread; the important thing is that you use a consistent approach and use similar controls where appropriate.

[stevech]

Originally Posted by nick_l

These posts illustrate one of my points. Every time someone posts that something is wrong with the user interface someone else says check out so and so's STV. for a product that relies heavily on its user base for UI "innovations" that is one hell of a learning curve.

Based on the above 3 or so posts on the learning curve time for Sage Studio, I have to take a pass on it. I'd go for it if it were like a couple of evenings.

[nielm]

Originally Posted by stevech

Based on the above 3 or so posts on the learning curve time for Sage Studio, I have to take a pass on it. I'd go for it if it were like a couple of evenings.

you will never know how difficult or easy it is if you don't try...