BLU-Ray & SageTV - The Roadmap

[bcjenkins]

If you are using HIP or Girder it shouldn't be too hard for remote mappings. Also, p-dvd *may* support the MCE remote natively. At least that would make sense to me ;-)

B

Check with your playback software maker to determine remote control support.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mikesm

This just isn't that hard. Linux with mplayer can play HD-DVD today, and they certainly don't have an AACS license. You do need to be able to understand the format of .evo files and have hardware and codecs capable of decoding h.264 and vc-1 without problems.

But mplayer can't play them legally. A commercial app/company is a bit bigger of a target than mplayer when it comes to doing stuff without a license, and there would be significant liability Sage would be taking on by "supporting" HD DVD and/or Blu-ray without a license.

But the bigger problem is the DirectShow infrastructure just isn't quite there yet for HD DVD and/or Blu-ray. Once that's in place, I think things could be a bit different.

It sounds like with foreign codecs we can get that in Sage today (though i think they should be shipping vc-1 and h.264 codecs with sage, just as they do mpeg-2). We just don't have the support for understanding evo files.

Sage is not unique in it's situation. As for VC-1 and H.264 decoders, well VC-1 decoders are included/available directly with Windows, and until Sage really starts recording in H.264, there's no point adding an extra expense to the app.

I am not asking for sage to get AACS certification. That isn't going to happen. But that isn't the same as playing unencrypted hd-dvd and blu-ray media. Both formats have pc compatible burners available, and software exists for making your own hidef movies. It's the same situation as with DVD's.

Yeah, but with DVDs, the infrastructure is already there to play them. You realize that Sage relies almost entirely on DirectShow and filters for playback of DVDs.

users need to add "code" to be able to back up media to their hard drives. We aren't asking sage to do this, just to play things back the same was as they do with DVD's.

Then start asking for real splitter/demux, navigator, and audio decoder filters (the later two are the biggies) from the media community. Those are where the problems lie. There's no robust way to play EVOs (not sure about m2ts).

What am I missing here?

What you're missing is that until the infrastructure is in place, short of writing EVO, M2TS, and HDi/BD-MV/BD-J support into Sage itself, there just isn't much for Sage, or any Dshow app to leverage to support these discs.

[nielm]

Originally Posted by mikesm

Linux with mplayer can play HD-DVD today

no it cannot
Mplayer can play unencrypted HD-DVD files.
It cannot play AACS-encrypted HD-DVD disks. For that you need a decrypting tool (illegal under DMCA) and some way to get the appropriate AACS keys (which as soon as they are released, will change for new disks)

Google for "mplayer aacs hd-dvd" for more info

[Ryokurin]

If all you care about is that sage can play unencrypted EVO files than that is likely possible now anyways since there are ways to make the files comply to a directshow stream. All you need is a recent version of ffdshow tryouts (or something that can decode a WVC1 stream) , and haali media splitter. Windows media player and Zoom player can see and use it, I see no reason why Sage can't, although I admit I haven't tried.

If anyone wants to see before I get home from work heres a evo trailer. http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8EGB8DWJ

edit: tried it didn't play it, but thats likely a splitter issue and I don't feel like messing around with it to see if I can get it to work since that trailer is the only .evo file I will likely have for quite some time. it does work in other players however.

[mayamaniac]

I say leave the legal issues out of the talk. Since Blu-Rays and HD-DVDs can be created ala home videos without encryptions, then SageTV should be allowed to develop a player to play them.

[osburnfamily]

I'm just wondering now that the format wars appear to be over, if there will be any near-future support for BD discs?

I'm considering buying a BD drive for my PC along with PowerDVD Ultimate; but, it would be nice not to have to get up from the couch to minimize/maximize Sage just to play a BD movie.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by osburnfamily

I'm just wondering now that the format wars appear to be over, if there will be any near-future support for BD discs?

I'd bet money not. AACS requires a guaranteed secure path from disc to display and there's an $8 Million fine if you break that requirement. Sage would (I think) need a major overhaul to support that level of security.

[Mitch G]

Although, I wonder if (and hope) the USB port on the HD100 could be a link in a secure path to deliver BluRay to my TV.


Mitch

[osburnfamily]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I'd bet money not. AACS requires a guaranteed secure path from disc to display and there's an $8 Million fine if you break that requirement.

Really? wow! Apparently knowbody's challanged the idea of fairuse on BD then? I have small children that seem to eat dvd's for breakfast. If I'm not allowed to make a backup copy of my disc--I think I'll just have to skip the idea of HD dvd content all together!

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I'd bet money not. AACS requires a guaranteed secure path from disc to display and there's an $8 Million fine if you break that requirement. Sage would (I think) need a major overhaul to support that level of security.

This is only an issue for AACS protected content. The fact that powerdvd does stupidity for all HD content and not just AACS protected content is a bug that looks like will get fixed, and hopefully other players will not have that same bug in them.

Again, it's worth noting that Sage plays back DVDs from hard drives now, provided they are not protected by CSS. Being able to do the same thing for BR content not protected by AACS should be completely consistent with the Sage DVD policy, though much more complicated by the nature of the menus and auxiliary content found in BR discs.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mikesm

This is only an issue for AACS protected content.

Which is everything on BD because BD requires AACS protection on all pre-recorded discs.

Again, it's worth noting that Sage plays back DVDs from hard drives now, provided they are not protected by CSS. Being able to do the same thing for BR content not protected by AACS should be completely consistent with the Sage DVD policy, though much more complicated by the nature of the menus and auxiliary content found in BR discs.

But Sage uses 3rd party (MS I believe) Directshow filters for handling the navigation of unprotected DVDs (it uses 3rd party decoders for handling CSS). The problem for Sage in that area is that given the crazy protection requirements for commercial BD content, the odds of someone creating a software component that handles BD navigation, especially BD-Java, that's easily usable for SageTV is not great. I don't expect SageTV LLC to dedicate resources to creating a BD(-J) navigator.

Now, the massive caveat for that is it looks like Arcsoft Totalmedia Theater installs Dshow navigator filters for HD DVD and BD, though they crash Graphedit whenever I try to place one in a a graph.

[SageDonkey]

Originally Posted by osburnfamily

I'm just wondering now that the format wars appear to be over, if there will be any near-future support for BD discs?

I'm considering buying a BD drive for my PC along with PowerDVD Ultimate; but, it would be nice not to have to get up from the couch to minimize/maximize Sage just to play a BD movie.

You don't have to get up - I use SageMC and it uses mlbdude's external players. Tell SageMC to use an external player for your media. I only wanted to use PowerDVD for the BluRay stuff, so there is an option to limit the external players to a certain extension (search the props file). I create .iso's of my Blu-Ray discs and name them .bluray. I then tell SageMC to limit the external players to only the .bluray extension. My external player is configured to be a .vbs script that mounts the BluRay iso and calls PowerDVD with the virtual drive letter. Finally, I have EventGhost mapping all the PowerDVD keys to my remote. The only tricky part I found (besides all the moving parts) was that PowerDVD seems to launch one instance for the menus and another instance for the application itself which sometimes tricks SageMC into thinking PowerDVD is done, so it reclaims focus. My VB script polls at 5 second intervals for PowerDVD - if there isn't at least 1 instance, it assumes I'm done and returns so SageMC can grab focus. Not as nearly great as native, but pretty seemless and my wife can use it and doesn't really notice a difference (integration wise that is).

[Polypro]

...and if you happen to use an MCE receiver with either the MCE remote or a Harmony with MCE codes, it's pretty easy as well. Create a menu item with neilm's Dynamic Custimizable Main Menu that launches PowerDVD, press play. When finished, I have Ctrl-X mapped (with an MCE keyboard) to the Exit button and PDVD closes.

P

[CollinR]

I am with all that sage Sage should be able to play non encrypted Blu Rays as soon as possible just as it can play non encrypted DVDs.

Think about this how many use a CD burner today, and how cool they were a decade ago. Blu Ray is going to do that to DVD burners before long, we just go through too much data now. This is ultimately why Blu Ray won the format wars, it's obvious in the PC world Blu Ray would survive either way. Having both the motion picture and data markets like DVD does helps everyone involved. I don't want to have a 20 disk DVD backup (which doesn't have any video, at all!!! ~100GB) when I could have just 2 Blu Rays (and possibly only 1 half full in the future), commercially nobody does either.

The codecs and the menu system is all I care about, I can totally understand Sage not wanting to touch the decryption side. The video formats and java menus however, thats right in Sage's back yard.


Also wasn't it kinda demonstrated that ethernet enabled Blu Ray players (most all new ones) can be used as HD extenders? This would be cool enough to offset the fact that the devices only support a single disk at a time. So if the road map goes in this direction I don't really have any problems there either.

[sam99]

Originally Posted by osburnfamily

Really? wow! Apparently knowbody's challanged the idea of fairuse on BD then? I have small children that seem to eat dvd's for breakfast. If I'm not allowed to make a backup copy of my disc--I think I'll just have to skip the idea of HD dvd content all together!

I know I have skipped the idea. Yes, the picture is beautiful, but my regular dvd playback is pretty enough. And the cost of the discs are prohibitive. The majority of my dvd collection is getting a bit old as everything is ridiculously overpriced. They rerelease movies on dvd that are 20 years old and want $30 for them, bleh. I have the money, so it is not about the money to me, it is about what the industry thinks they can charge which I will not support.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by CollinR

I am with all that sage Sage should be able to play non encrypted Blu Rays as soon as possible just as it can play non encrypted DVDs.

Think about this how many use a CD burner today, and how cool they were a decade ago. Blu Ray is going to do that to DVD burners before long, we just go through too much data now.

Honestly, I really doubt it, not soon at least. If Blu-ray supplants DVD it will be because the industry makes it happen, not because of mass acceptance/adoption.

The problem for Blu-ray (as a storage device) is it's really to mediocre in terms of storage capacity. DVD is plenty big for most most data storage except backup. But Blu-ray isn't even close to big enough for backup needs. I just find it really hard to make a case for BD in terms of data storage, it's just not enough bigger than DVD to be really attractive.

This is ultimately why Blu Ray won the format wars,

Blu-ray won the war because the industry decided it should. And the industry decided it should win, based almost entirely on hype, hype that it has yet to live up to.

it's obvious in the PC world Blu Ray would survive either way.

Survive, probably, thrive, maybe, maybe not.

Having both the motion picture and data markets like DVD does helps everyone involved.

I agree it's better having only one format.

I don't want to have a 20 disk DVD backup (which doesn't have any video, at all!!! ~100GB) when I could have just 2 Blu Rays (and possibly only 1 half full in the future), commercially nobody does either.

Problem is, Blu-ray is wholely insufficient for any sort of real backup duty that DVD can't handle relatively easilly. It would take me 80 BD-50's to back up my systems.

As for more modest backups, it's faster, easier, and cheaper to just use a hard drive that's disconnected from the system when not in use. Or for me, I backup my OS to my NAS (when I back it up).

The codecs and the menu system is all I care about, I can totally understand Sage not wanting to touch the decryption side. The video formats and java menus however, thats right in Sage's back yard.

In terms of programming language, yes, but that would still be a massive undertaking for Sage to build support for BD-J. Heck, the standalone manufacterers have enough trouble with it.

Frankly I couldn't care less about the menus though, if Sage can handle BD M2TS files, including chapters that would meet 99.9% of my wants for HD playback, and it basically does that now (no chapters though).

Also wasn't it kinda demonstrated that ethernet enabled Blu Ray players (most all new ones) can be used as HD extenders?

Sage was run on a Pioneer BD player yes, my guess though is that the Sage Extender SW was slightly tweaked and it replaced the BD software on that player, I bet that player wouldn't play a BD.

Then there's the licensing fees, Sage would almost certainly have to license the BD-J technology (unless somebody builds an Open Source version).

This would be cool enough to offset the fact that the devices only support a single disk at a time. So if the road map goes in this direction I don't really have any problems there either.

That would be nice, I agree.

[CollinR]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Honestly, I really doubt it, not soon at least. If Blu-ray supplants DVD it will be because the industry makes it happen, not because of mass acceptance/adoption.

The problem for Blu-ray (as a storage device) is it's really to mediocre in terms of storage capacity. DVD is plenty big for most most data storage except backup. But Blu-ray isn't even close to big enough for backup needs. I just find it really hard to make a case for BD in terms of data storage, it's just not enough bigger than DVD to be really attractive.

Keep in mind DVDs were about x4 the storage of a CD when they took over. Blu Ray is x4 the size of a DVD per layer and supports 4 layers.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Blu-ray won the war because the industry decided it should. And the industry decided it should win, based almost entirely on hype, hype that it has yet to live up to.

I think it would be foolish to think "the industry" (can we agree to call them an empire???) didn't weight the other points.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Sage was run on a Pioneer BD player yes, my guess though is that the Sage Extender SW was slightly tweaked and it replaced the BD software on that player, I bet that player wouldn't play a BD.

Then there's the licensing fees, Sage would almost certainly have to license the BD-J technology (unless somebody builds an Open Source version).

I'm guessing placeshifter was tweaked to run portable from the Blu Ray disk... This would allow you to simply change disks without effecting the player at all.

Originally Posted by stanger89

That would be nice, I agree.

I would say inevitable, I serisouly doubt those guys went through some massive undertaking to run Sage on that player. Whats in it for them?

[Deacon Crusher]

Frankly I couldn't care less about the menus though, if Sage can handle BD M2TS files, including chapters that would meet 99.9% of my wants for HD playback, and it basically does that now (no chapters though).

So, do you have that playback working on an extender or just on the PC.

I'm trying to get it working on an extender and I either get hangs, or black screens or one time I got playback, but it was very very jerky, like the extender engine couldn't keep up or server was trying to transcode or something.

Thanks

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by CollinR

Keep in mind DVDs were about x4 the storage of a CD when they took over. Blu Ray is x4 the size of a DVD per layer and supports 4 layers.

But DVD didn't replace CDs, it replaced VHS, DVD compliments CDs.

As for 4 layer Blu-ray, yes they've shown up to 8-layer BD in the lab, but the BD-ROM specs only support 2 layers, so I'd be very surprised if we ever see >2 layer BDs.

I think it would be foolish to think "the industry" (can we agree to call them an empire???) didn't weight the other points.

I think technical specs had little to do with it. Less than copy protection, promises of a quick victory ala PS3 and politics.

I'm guessing placeshifter was tweaked to run portable from the Blu Ray disk... This would allow you to simply change disks without effecting the player at all.

I really doubt that, if I were a betting man, I'd bet money it was tweaked Extender code, especially considering the the new Pioneer BD players run on a Sigma platform very similar to the HD100's Sigma platform.

I would say inevitable, I serisouly doubt those guys went through some massive undertaking to run Sage on that player. Whats in it for them?

Like I said, I'd guess it was just a quite tweak to the Extender code (heck, maybe no change at all). I think the problem is not SageTV, it's that I'd be rather surprised if Pioneer actually were to offer a BD player with SageTV Extender software on it.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Deacon Crusher

So, do you have that playback working on an extender or just on the PC.

I've got a BD-sourced TS file that kind of plays on the extender. I need to experiment more to see if the problem is my network/server or the extender itself. But note the "basically", that's there because it's not 100% there yet.