WHS and SageTV Performance

[AtariJeff]

I've been running SageTV on my Windows Home Server for several months now and, in general, I am quite pleased with the setup. I have noticed though a loss of performance (studdering video, freeze ups) when my media extender is powering up and when it goes into 'balancing storage' mode. It's starting to impact the WAF. Anyone running WHS have some performance tips for me? I'm running an Athlon64 3000+ with 1GB of RAM. Server has a total of 2.66TB of storage. SageTV recordings drive is 300GB unmanaged by WHS.

[oaamaas]

Don't know if this will help - but I can share some experiences.

I had a somewhat similar experience as you in my first WHS install. All disks where managed and formatted in 64k sectors. I had stuttering and pauses, sometimes frequently. I added the WHS toolkit and run the Server Storage Diagnostics and got a terrible report - a massive amount of files with tombstone problems. Also I typically run into trouble each Sunday morning - the backup cleanup failed, and all backups had to be deleted.
Anyway - I reinstalled everything, let the 4x 500GB drives be managed on default 4k sectors and made a span of 2x 300GB unmanaged drives formatted in 64k sectors. These last disks are ONLY used by SageTV for recordings. Downloads, rips and edits are stored in the managed area (SageTV import directories set up here).
Setup is probably much like yours - but I do not have any of these problems anymore.
After the initial bad experience I've done some more reading in the manuals (the PDF on the drive extender was pretty useful) and make sure to avoid my initial bad mistakes like:
- Defrag (defrag of a managed area gave me my first server hang)
- Addessing directories directly (always use the share paths for anything)
- User Admin on WHS server (only use the WHS console)
- Disk Admin on WHS server (only use the WHS console)
The only exception from the above is with the unmanaged disks - I of course used the Disk Admin for reformat and for assigning a drive letter. It did give me a critical network message - I got rid of that after the first reboot.
Also - since I had bad experiences on my first try I've made sure that the four managed and the two spanned disks run on separate SATA-controllers. Probably overkill, but why not when I have two ...

To summarize I think my initial problems was very much self inflicted - and the second run following the manuals strict resolved all issues. Both the SageTV Client and the MVP work great now.

[bigjoe22]

I resently formatted and installed WHS coming from a working XP pro install. (why, I dont know) After installing WHS and all the updates, I cannot get video to work. I get a trouble rendering video evrytime and with every setting I try. I have installed windvd, hoping the codecs needed to be installed??? Any Ideas? I have the Hauppauge PVR500 and a HVR-1600.

Thanks,
joelM

[src666]

I was considering moving my SageTV server onto WHS, but after some thought I decided it would be a bad idea. The biggest advantage of WHS is the managed storage, but this is also the biggest disadvantage. Managed storage is the equivalent of software RAID, and software RAID 5 at that (yes, I know that it's not really RAID 5, but there's an equivalence in terms of overhead). There is no way I would expect a software RAID 5 solution to perform well enough for SageTV.

As was mentioned by oaamaas, don't let Sage record onto managed drives. It's a performance pit.

[oaamaas]

Bigjoe22:

Are you trying to run SageTV on the WHS as "the server" or are you also going to use it to watch content (I guess you do)? Since I only use WHS as server I can't help much. But it is possible, one of the really early forum topics on WHS confirms that (http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?p=223255&postcount=71). I'd guess that some also use the Server 2003 (which is the basis for WHS) to watch content - try to search the forums for advice.

I personally can't watch using my server, I RDC into it (network connected only, no keyboard/mouse/screen) and I also got an unresolved blocking audio driver issue that I do not bother to fix. I know how - I just don't need to.

As for the cards: I do use the PVR 500 with XP drivers - for the other card I can't say. My WHS setup works flawlessly - as a server for my XP machine with SageTV client and for the MVP. Probably going to get a couple of HD extenders as well.

SRC666:

I'm very satisfied with my WHS. On the first try I followed in gplasky's footsteps and reformatted disks into 64k sectors - to bad WHS does not offer some advanced options to let the user select that when adding disks. Anyway - on second try after having messed up the server I did not want to take any risks. Massive copying of hundreds of gigabytes takes time, and my family really use the media center every day. So I did everything straight forward with HDs in 4k sectors.

My experience is that such a setup does give a risk for stuttering - also not popular among family members. My guess is that this problem mainly has to do with HD sector sizes and not so much to do with "raid". You do not have to duplicate content for the recording share - or for any share at all - on WHS. But since I did have stutters - on my machine that is nowhere near a low-end setup - the obvious and easy way out was to "remove" disks out of the managed area and then optimize. Also note that only recordings are done outside of the managed area - other stuff like divx downloads, ripped DVDs and on ARE on the 4k sector disks. This content is duplicated and plays fine. The solution was to balance the load somewhat when playing, recording and WHS "balancing" files between disks came on top of each other.

[PGPfan]

Originally Posted by src666

I was considering moving my SageTV server onto WHS, but after some thought I decided it would be a bad idea. The biggest advantage of WHS is the managed storage, but this is also the biggest disadvantage. Managed storage is the equivalent of software RAID, and software RAID 5 at that (yes, I know that it's not really RAID 5, but there's an equivalence in terms of overhead). There is no way I would expect a software RAID 5 solution to perform well enough for SageTV.

As was mentioned by oaamaas, don't let Sage record onto managed drives. It's a performance pit.

Just so you realize, 'Managed Storage' isn't anywhere close to RAID 5, or even Raid for that matter. In WHS, all it does is allow the 'managed' drives to be viewed as one volume and be easily grown using different size drives. It offers no 'parity' which exists on all flavors of RAID. Protection wise, WHS is only doing data mirroring. It does work great as a Sage server, however. As you mentioned, it's best NOT to use a managed drive as your Sage recording drive unless you have a VERY powerful server. The WHS box frequently 'load balances' the managed drives (spreads data across the various disks), and this will take a large toll on data throughput during writes.

-PGPfan

[bigjoe22]

The trouble I'm having has not yet led me to disk problems as I cannot even see the avi's I have stored on my HD. I get the playback error whether I try and watch tv or play a movie. I CAN start divx player and play my avi's so it has to be something in Sage doesnt it? All hardware shows fine in control panel.... is there a decoder I can change in Sage somewhere? I have messed with every setting I can find....
Sage ran perfect in XP with same hardware?
Lost I am!!

JoelM

[Djc208]

Originally Posted by bigjoe22

The trouble I'm having has not yet led me to disk problems as I cannot even see the avi's I have stored on my HD. I get the playback error whether I try and watch tv or play a movie. I CAN start divx player and play my avi's so it has to be something in Sage doesnt it? All hardware shows fine in control panel.... is there a decoder I can change in Sage somewhere? I have messed with every setting I can find....
Sage ran perfect in XP with same hardware?
Lost I am!!

JoelM

What are you watching the content on? If Sage is running on your WHS you need to be doing playback through either an extender/placeshifter or a client.

WHS is a stripped down version of Server 2003 with some special features and a custom interface. It is not designed to be used as a computer with a normal keyboard, mouse, and display. It's supposed to be managed remotely and just perform server duties off in a closet or corner somewhere.

If you want to use it as an all-in-one I suggest going back to XP.

[src666]

Originally Posted by PGPfan

Just so you realize, 'Managed Storage' isn't anywhere close to RAID 5, or even Raid for that matter. In WHS, all it does is allow the 'managed' drives to be viewed as one volume and be easily grown using different size drives. It offers no 'parity' which exists on all flavors of RAID. Protection wise, WHS is only doing data mirroring. It does work great as a Sage server, however. As you mentioned, it's best NOT to use a managed drive as your Sage recording drive unless you have a VERY powerful server. The WHS box frequently 'load balances' the managed drives (spreads data across the various disks), and this will take a large toll on data throughput during writes.

-PGPfan

Sorry, but any "Managed Storage" that "spreads data across the various disks" is performing a RAID-5 like activity. It isn't straight mirroring - it's distributed mirroring. I understand that they aren't using parity, which eats more processor time but less drive space. But they are doing more work than simple RAID-1, which is the most I would ever let software do (and would avoid if possible).

I never said word one about WHS being a bad solution, or not powerful. I just said that recording to managed disks is a bad idea.

If anyone does use WHS for Sage Server, I would recommend using unmanaged disks at 64K blocks - as is recommended for any other Sage server configuration.

[dballer1]

1. Its shadow copies. No raid at all.
2. like RAID-5 Actviity. Not even close. RAID5 is a group of disks or data protected with a parity bit. Spreading data across disks can be RAID 0,3,4,5,6,10,50 (probaly missing some) as well.

[Slipshod]

Originally Posted by src666

Sorry, but any "Managed Storage" that "spreads data across the various disks" is performing a RAID-5 like activity. It isn't straight mirroring - it's distributed mirroring. I understand that they aren't using parity, which eats more processor time but less drive space. But they are doing more work than simple RAID-1, which is the most I would ever let software do (and would avoid if possible).

For the record, WHS's drive pool bears absolutely no resemblance to RAID-5, and really shouldn't be described as "RAID-5 like". If you want to try and describe it in common disk terms it's closest to "JBOD-like" (and even that is a stretch because of the crazy "tombstone" method used to present it as one pool), but with per-share-mirroring. The performance overhead in WHS's managed pool is completely different from parity calculations in RAID-5, and is caused by moving the files from disk-to-disk in the background regularly to "balance" the distribution and keep the write-target disk clear.

It's wacky, and I trust any RAID (software or otherwise) more than the current iteration. After they fix the data corruption issue it'll be appropriate for their target market, but I will still be using RAID instead.

[Polypro]

1. I don't store TV, but I *do* store my DVDs on the Managed Drive Pool...absolutely no stuttering with the .vob files. I *am* using Diskeeper WHS however.

2. WinDVD may not allow third party access to their CoDecs...try installing PDVD or Nvidia PureVideo.

3. While installing programs and Add-Ins hasn't been a problem, don't *EVER* try to "tweak" WHS by messing with the services...let whatever is running, run...don't ask me how I know

My WHS has been a rock...had some .wma corruption before I knew not to edit files from the server, but after that, nothing but stability.

*Oh! Don't enable Jumbo Frames on the WHS NIC (At least with a Realtek)...caused a bunch of problems. WHS is slow to tranfer to, no matter what.

P

[dibs]

I just got a Mediasmart Box preloaded with WHS. I have 4 500GB drives installed and want to use 3 as the "managed storage", and then leave the remaining 500GB drive for recoring and watching live TV when I get my HD-PVR on Tuesday.

My question is, how do I format the 4th drive in 64k sectors? Right now, I have the 3 in the managed section of the storage, and the other one is outside. What do I do with it to prepare for the HD-PVR?

Thanks, I'm kinda noobish at this, but very excited.

[inlvnv]

You would need to remote in to WHS and bring up disk management. From there, initialize and format the external drive to 64k cluster. System will assign a drive letter.

[dibs]

Cool. Can I do that through the console, or do I have to remote in?

Thanks again

[othy]

You will have to remote in to open disk management. If you've never done this before, right click on My Computer and select "Manage". Disk Management is at the bottom of the list. It's essentially the same as XP.

Tim

[dibs]

OK. I'm in disk management and rick click on new partition on the unallocated disk. I went through all the settings (primary partion, max capacity, drive letter, NTFS) until the finish button, but it never asked my about cluster/sector size. How do I select that?

[dibs]

Nevermind. Found it.