Newbie question

[heffneil]

I have a question about how Sage works with multiple endpoints and multiple tuners. I guess the question is: is the relationship of tuners to TV's one to one? If I am watching something on one TV via a client and the other TV turns on will it use the next available tuner? Also I am curious if I could get one STB that has premium channels and use a tuner that is just connected to cable and if someone tunes to a premium channel it would use the STB vs the straight cable.

Thanks,

Neil

[kevine]

Originally Posted by heffneil

I guess the question is: is the relationship of tuners to TV's one to one?

Yes.

Originally Posted by heffneil

Also I am curious if I could get one STB that has premium channels and use a tuner that is just connected to cable and if someone tunes to a premium channel it would use the STB vs the straight cable.

As long as that tuner/STB is NOT being actively viewed by another TV/Client or currently recording, it will use find it/use it. For example, there is a list of tuners that can tune to each station and Sage will use that pool of tuners to accomplish your task unless it is being used.

[heffneil]

How does sage know if someone is watching that tuner? Does the user have to pick the tuner to use? Does the interface differ if it is media extender vs a PC client?

Shew lots of questions.

Thanks!

Neil

[gibsonpa]

Good questions. As a new sage user...i was wondering a similar thing. I plan to purchase 3 of the HD extenders when they come in stock..but only have 2 HD OTA tuners in my PC.

So if I turn on all 3 extenders and attempt to watch live tv on all three...what will happen?

I can see where the first 2 lextenders (live tv) will work since I have 2 tuners...but the third extender will do what? Error message all tuners in use, "steal" a tuner from another extender, ???....any ideas?

[Opus4]

First, the number of tuners only matters if you are trying to use more clients than tuners to watch live TV on different channels on each client.

Live TV is simply watching show that is currently recording -- multiple clients can watch the same live TV recording, or multiple clients can watch multiple existing recordings. But, if they all try to watch a different live TV channel, then you will need 1 tuner per client. And, if any client is watching a show live and there are no unused tuners, then another client won't be able to change the channel because you then get into the fight about which client has the right to change the channel that someone else is watching.

Note that this live TV question often comes up from newer users. Once people get used to recording their TV shows, live TV usage tends to drop -- not for everyone, but it seems to work that way for a lot of people. Many people find that it is more convenient to record their shows and watch them later.

- Andy

[heffneil]

I think what I am suggesting is oversubscribing the number of STB's to clients. Also I am trying to cheap out by not having to buy 3 STB's to watch HBO if we only watch HBO one at a time (if that makes sense). In theory one person might watch a premium channel but the other two clients might watch standard television which wouldn't require an STB but just another tuner.

Thanks!

Neil

[BFisher]

My opinion is you can't go wrong with more tuners...

I have 6 tuners (3 OTA HD, 3 SD from DirecTV STBs). Rarely are they all used... however, I like the flexibility just in case. The biggest example is the babysitter. I want to ensure that everything scheduled to record will always record regardless of what she wants to watch. So if I have 5 simultaneous recordings scheduled (never), there will still be an open tuner for her to watch. (but if all 3 OTA tuners are busy and she selects an OTA channel, it will pop up a warning message and ask her to confirm. She then selects no and chooses the same channel without the HD and it gives her the satellite version).

Also, the user doesn't know what tuner is being used. All the channels for all the tuners show up in the grid guide (no, I don't have 6 Fox channels listed... it's smart and doesn't duplicate). The user selects what they want to watch and it tunes the right tuner to that channel (all transparent).

Rarely (never) do we watch live TV anymore. Once you get used to commercial skipping, live tv is unbearable. Also, channel surfing is not fun because of the delays (remember - live TV is still being recorded and you are watching a recording (just 1-2 seconds delayed)). We will routinely watch live TV 30-45 minutes after it starts (commercial skipping works while it's still recording).

[heffneil]

I will watch live TV and probably pause it when the baby cries or the phone rings. I do record things that are on the at the same time as other programs I watch. I just wasn't sure if the system could be configured in such a way to tell if someone wants to watch HBO to use the STB that has HBO vs the line that doesn't have premium channels.

Neil

[BFisher]

yes, it's smart enough to handle that... invisible to you

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by heffneil

I have a question about how Sage works with multiple endpoints and multiple tuners. I guess the question is: is the relationship of tuners to TV's one to one?

No, it's really many to many, tuners and clients are entirely separate. Think of it this way, all a client does is request to watch shows. It doesn't matter if the show was recorded three weeks ago, or if it's airing right now.

On the server side, it simply manages watch requests, recordings, and tuners. If a client requests a recorded show, it sends it to the client. If a show is scheduled to record, Sage pulls a tuner from the pool and uses it. If the client requests to watch a show that's currently airing, the server "schedules" a recordings which pulls a tuner out of the pool to record it, and sends that recording to the client.

If two clients request the same live show the server just points them both to the same recording. If they request different live shows. the server starts two recordings (using two tuners).

This all expands to n clients and m tuners. If there aren't enough tuners to support the number of requested recordings (schedule and live) Sage alerts the user.

If I am watching something on one TV via a client and the other TV turns on will it use the next available tuner?

It depends on what you mean by "turns on". If you mean litterally turn on client, then just sitting in the menu at startup, no tuners are used*. Only when that other client requests a unique, currently-airing show is a tuner occupied.

*There is an exception to that, if you have video background always enabled, when you "start" a client, it will tune to the last tuned channel, and will occupy a tuner. Personally I have video background disabled.

Also I am curious if I could get one STB that has premium channels and use a tuner that is just connected to cable and if someone tunes to a premium channel it would use the STB vs the straight cable.

Oh, most certainly, I'd guess this is the most common setup. You could have one tuner setup for just the digital channels (the ones that need the box), then you can setup other tuners to record direct off the cable. When you go through channel setup you just pick a different "lineup" (eg "Basic" for analog channels and "Digital" for the digital ones, the providers I've used have at least 2 lineups usually which differ only in the default-enabled channels). You could add digital tuners for OTA (local digital) broadcasts too.

[heffneil]

I think that answers a bunch of the questions pretty well. How does one have 6 tuners? Do you have a big machine? I really want to do some HD capturing and was going to use the Black Magic card for component input but I figured I would get some OTA tuner cards. I have FIOS so I have a little concern there. I will have to find out how much the individual boxes are to see if it just doesn't make sense to get a bunch and not deal with less tuners.

Thanks for all the help.

Neil

[kevine]

Originally Posted by heffneil

I think that answers a bunch of the questions pretty well. How does one have 6 tuners? Do you have a big machine? I really want to do some HD capturing and was going to use the Black Magic card for component input but I figured I would get some OTA tuner cards. I have FIOS so I have a little concern there. I will have to find out how much the individual boxes are to see if it just doesn't make sense to get a bunch and not deal with less tuners.

Thanks for all the help.

Neil

I have 9. There really is no limit but yes, it is limited to the amount of hardware you have. I don't think it is a big server but it does do the job. I only have 1 STB for cable and I do not record HD from it. I use 5 QAM tuners for that.

You can see my server in my signature below.

[BFisher]

Originally Posted by heffneil

I think that answers a bunch of the questions pretty well. How does one have 6 tuners? Do you have a big machine? I really want to do some HD capturing and was going to use the Black Magic card for component input but I figured I would get some OTA tuner cards. I have FIOS so I have a little concern there. I will have to find out how much the individual boxes are to see if it just doesn't make sense to get a bunch and not deal with less tuners.

It's all based on your hardware in your server. When i built mine, I made sure I had plenty of expansion slots (and hard drive connections). I have room for more still...

I bought 3 cards - each with 2 tuners on it (1 OTA HD and 1 SD for STB each).

I would be a bit more patient on the Black Magic card. Yes, you can go that route... but I would wait just a little longer and see what else is released. There are several plug and play HD component solutions on the near horizon (or claim to be) - where the Black Magic card requires some work to make it work. Plus I think you may be more limited by it since (I think, but I don't own one) it requires CPU processing rather than encoding on the card itself.

[heffneil]

Yeah I was going to have to build some killer server. Dual quad cores to support that box. The biggest challenge that I could see was that it would usually have not more than 4 PCI Express slots so that is 3 black magics (or some other combination of cards for tuners) which seemed limited to me.

How does the HDHomeRun connect to the PC? Is there anything that can do over the air HD or over the cable HD?

Neil

[BFisher]

I would be surprised if a PC could handle the 3 black magics (but I really don't know what I'm talking about since I don't own one... my impression is that it requires some serious horsepower... which is why I'm waiting for the Hauppauge stuff which should do the encoding on the board)

My server is quad-core - and runs great, no issues. It has 3 PCIe and 4 regular slots. So far, I'm using the 3 PCIes so I have room for expansion. I have 2 Avermedia 780s and 1 Hauppauge 1800. They do my HD OTA and my SD from the DirecTV STB.

HDHomerun is a good solution, but I opted to not use it to minimize network traffic. I have 5 extenders (4 MVPs, 1 HD... but will be replacing MVPs over time) and I wanted all the network throughput for them (so they can all watch something at same time without issues). Adding HDHR just seemed like more traffic to me and more potential for issues. Many people here have them and are very happy. I am very happy with my cards-in-the-box solution

[kevine]

Originally Posted by heffneil

How does the HDHomeRun connect to the PC? Is there anything that can do over the air HD or over the cable HD?

Either 100 Mbps ethernet anywhere on the network or direct connect to a 2nd NIC port directly to the server. If you ahve a Gbit network, no issues with throughput. I have 2 and 4 MVPs with no problem. The bottle neck is your server to the switch because that has inbound and outbound traffic with an HDHR. That should be Gbit if you can. (server NIC and switch)

HDHR and and a lot of other solutions do both ATSC (OTA) and QAM (unenrypted digital cable). You should find out if you get unencrypted channel before you buy something for QAM. The Silicondust website is a good source for that.