Was SageTV easy to install?

[stevech]

I started with a decent-speed laptop running Sage (low power consumption) and several USB drives.

I never liked the soft video quality and crummy dropped frames for busy scenes or for camera panning. I blamed it on the mpeg encoder; I was wrong. This is just standard def TV I'm speaking of.

Then I went to an MVP driven by an IP stream from a PC that runs Sage and lots of other always-on applications, with RAID1 in a video recordings partition (64KB). Gee, all these issues went away. In hindsight, the conversions from video to mpeg to the laptop's video frame buffer, then resample it to NTSC to go to the TV as S-video - was causing all the quality issues. So TV on a PC needs much better video chips than in the typical laptop or even low cost desktop. But even great/fast chips don't overcome the issues due to resampling already-compressed/decompressed MPEG.

The MVP's bootloading with Sage is very fragile as compared to the same product used with Hauppauge's host software rather than Sage. It's one of those damned-hard-to-get-working things that is fine until anything changes in your LAN addressing.

[vexhold]

I have had many difficulties with SageTV, but I have loved tinkering with it and trying to figure it out. (thats half the fun) Youll never know how it works if you dont have problems.

Of course my issues I had due to having SageTV before I had "all" my hardware. lol.

The only issue I am having now is with the remotes, which I have an open post about in hardware.

Other than that it seems to working great.

Oh, and I love cheese.

[stevech]

Originally Posted by MitchSchaft

It's common knowledge among us tech folks that wireless is not good for video application.

If wireless means 802.11/WiFi, generally yes.
But streaming standard def to an MVP using 11g and a good signal is fine. Uses 1/3 or so of the available 22Mbps at the IP layer.

[lobosrul]

Install was as easy as could be, but I had minor stuttering on 1080i channels for years, until I got a Purevideo2 capable card (and then the STX HD-100). Also had great trouble in getting h.264 mkv files to work. In fact I've had to "fix" that no less than 3 times.

[loomdog32]

Myfrst Sage install was a major PITA to get setup.. Now that Im "used to it" I could get it done in 2hrs max... This is an area Sage needs some MASSIVE improvement in.....

[Brent]

Originally Posted by loomdog32

Myfrst Sage install was a major PITA to get setup.. Now that Im "used to it" I could get it done in 2hrs max... This is an area Sage needs some MASSIVE improvement in.....

Could you expand on what made it a major PITA for you? A little more detail might help in improving those things...

[freedml]

Here are some of my pet peeves:

Wireless MVPs just don't work except for Standard Def. SageTV should either say that they are only supported in a 'wired' mode or change the software to automatically (or a manual setting to) transcode at a lower bitrate to a wireless device.

Similarly, PlaceShifter should work at whatever bitrate is available. Right now it assumes that anything on the local network is wired, so if you try to use your wireless home network it has problems.

I wish there were a PlaceShifter option to display a sharp picture at whatever size screen the bandwidth will support, like YouTube does.

I finally wired the whole house. That was a bit of an adventure, having never needed a switch before and not having terminated ethernet cable in years. I'm pretty good at it now. Thank God I bought a decent cable tester!

Now SageTV works pretty well.

Except when it doesn't.

Sometimes it's poor antenna signal, which SageTV should monitor.

Fairly often the sound is not synced properly with the video. Still don't know why that happens or how to fix it.

Sometimes commercials have screechy, fast-sounding audio but then it often fixes itself when the show comes back on. Another mystery.

SageTV works well enough and has enough advantages to be better than our old analog DVRs which become almost useless in Feb. But it should work a lot better.

Oh, yeah. I tried installing SageMC (very confusing terminology. It took me months to figure out that this was a collection of add-ons all rolled into one XML package) and it bombed my system. So I went back to SageTV and just added the features I really wanted one at a time.

[Brent]

I'd like to try to address some of your peeves and hopefully make life better for you. Or at least point out a few things that might be helpful here:

Originally Posted by freedml

Here are some of my pet peeves:

Wireless MVPs just don't work except for Standard Def. SageTV should either say that they are only supported in a 'wired' mode or change the software to automatically (or a manual setting to) transcode at a lower bitrate to a wireless device.

I'll say it. Wireless isn't really a great idea for HTPC's in general - especialy with Hi Def.

Similarly, PlaceShifter should work at whatever bitrate is available. Right now it assumes that anything on the local network is wired, so if you try to use your wireless home network it has problems.

Placeshifter streams at the speed allowed based on the connection between your remote PC and server. So I think it already does what you are asking - works for me from work, from my car using a 3G USB card, even from my parents house which uses awful Satellite internet. The key is whether your server can handle the transcoding required to reduce the quality down to a streamable level for your connection.

Sometimes it's poor antenna signal, which SageTV should monitor.

I agree this would be nice to have, but the best way to deal with OTA is get a quality signal to start with and don't mess with it. I'm in an area that doesn't get great OTA for a few channels so I have to remove those from the OTA lineup to avoid problems - same with any HTPC software I think.

Fairly often the sound is not synced properly with the video. Still don't know why that happens or how to fix it.

There are fixes for that - If you haven't already you should start a thread to see if you can get help on that one.

Oh, yeah. I tried installing SageMC (very confusing terminology

Agreed - it is confusing - but once you know SageMC 16x9 is the user-developed replacement UI. Confusing naming unfortunately but easy to get used to after you know it.

It took me months to figure out that this was a collection of add-ons all rolled into one XML package)

Its really quite a bit more than that. It's a replacement User Interface that re-works the menus, adds functionality that isn't in the standard STV (UI) and does build-in many of the plugins. Also has some plugins available to it that aren't available to the standard STV.

and it bombed my system. So I went back to SageTV and just added the features I really wanted one at a time.

Glad that worked for you, but I'd be interested to know how it "bombed your system." Was it just messed up at installation or did it have some other issues?

[freedml]

Brent, I think you're wrong. If you're wireless on the LAN it gives terrible playback except in SD. It doesn't monitor the actual bandwidth or buffering. It just sends it as is and if it doesn't work tough luck.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by freedml

Brent, I think you're wrong. If you're wireless on the LAN it gives terrible playback except in SD. It doesn't monitor the actual bandwidth or buffering. It just sends it as is and if it doesn't work tough luck.

I'm never wrong

Okay, I'll admit that I'm sometimes wrong, but I dont' think this is the case here. SageTV Placeshifter does transcode down based on the bandwidth.

• You'll need about 240 kbits/sec minimum bandwidth for watchable video.
• How capable is your server CPU - can it transcode/compress enough to placeshift? The worse the connection, the more work your server has to do.
• On your placeshifter PC what is the CPU and GPU? It shouldn't take too much, but something to consider
• Despite what you think, it automatically detects your connection speed and gives you a corresponding bitrate. So you might try manually specifying the bitrate to be less than your upload speed (e.g., 512 instead of 768)

For more ideas on troubleshooting check out this thread which is appropriately located in the Placeshifter forum.

[freedml]

It transcodes fine when I'm using internet from another location. It just doesn't transcode when I'm using the wireless on the LAN. I think it's designed that way. It doesn't monitor the bandwidth or create a buffer when it's sending a recording to the LAN.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by freedml

It transcodes fine when I'm using internet from another location. It just doesn't transcode when I'm using the wireless on the LAN. I think it's designed that way. It doesn't monitor the bandwidth or create a buffer when it's sending a recording to the LAN.

Ah - I see what you're saying now. But I still think it detects the connection speed even then. I'll have to try it myself from home tonight to watch it more closely. But I have to say - I've been watching TV using my work laptop from the patio outside my home on WIFI with a fairly weak connection and it worked fine - but not sure how it's doing it within the LAN like that so I'll have to check...

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Brent

I'm never wrong

Okay, I'll admit that I'm sometimes wrong, but I dont' think this is the case here. SageTV Placeshifter does transcode down based on the bandwidth.

But not on a LAN, Sage does no transcoding then. Though I believe there is an option to force transcoding even on a LAN.

[freedml]

It does it once in a while, but there is no way to know when it will do it. My wireless signal is strong and 48mbps and when I tried to play a show today it just went back to the placeshifter menu. Didn't even play it with starts and stops.

I fired up the broadband wireless and it played beautifully, if fuzzy from the transcoding at 60-100kbps, which is the way it usually goes.

Haven't found a way to make it transcode properly over the LAN.

[loomdog32]

Originally Posted by Brent

Could you expand on what made it a major PITA for you? A little more detail might help in improving those things...

Oh boy.. where to begin... hmmmm.....

MCE IR Blaster - never could get it to work, spent the better part of 5 hrs playing with it / remote worked great from first start, actually used to during first setup.. ended up using FireWire instead. including the drive to a 24hr WalMart, 1hr away, took less time to get working (and glad I did as I am having 1000% better success with it then I did with the IR Blaster in VMC)

HD HomeRun - had to lookup the solution online and manually change the Sage.Prop file to get it to work (this may have been fixed by the new SiliconDust drivers?).. Granted I had to do the same for FW.. This is something that is VERY disapointing to me.. for as old as Sage is, it should be farther into dev to NOT have to do stuff like this

I have to setup 4 different epg sources (2x HDHR for QAM / 2x HVR for analoge cable / 2x HVR for QAM / 2x HDPVR for digital cable from STB).. granted I have more tuners than most users and would be advanced config, but its very annoying when random channels pop up (expecially when UVerse adds channels (its one of my ch sources).. they are oddball 4 digit and nowhere near usable as I have Comcast)

The above took me 2 days.. Come home from work Friday afternoon, download and install Sage. Had Sage up, usable and ready to customize/configure Saturday Night/Sunday Morning... I almost walked away from Sage at this point to go back to the DRM ridden VMC.. Yes HDPVR no work, just would have returned them and used HDHR and HVR for STB using 4 instead of 8 tuners Im using now.

In VMC, I didnt have to play with the EPG like i DO in Sage.. go thru the first run utility to set color/contrast/brightness/screen size/audio setup (something very sorely missing in Sage).. It detects the tuners and sets them up automatically (I just have to setup the remote and delete chs from the EPG).. Install HDHR and setup in its utility.. open VMC and delete repeat chs in EPG.. All I have to do now is install a/v codecs (which all I had installed where needed filters for AVC encoded mkv files) and put my media files in searched for directories.. Including a Vista install was under 4 hrs (this is mainly because only need 3 drivers outside Vista - LAN, Xonar and nVidia, 4 if you count HDHR)

Yes 4 hrs vs 34hrs (approx 1500 friday till 0000 sunday, 34hrs till all 8 tuners worked properly - includes install of OS)...... hmmmm... Yes.... Sage needs to improve on this

Now where does install stop and configuration begin?? If initial config is part of the install, then there is more, but it becomes very user specific.. Ill leave this out as it probably doesnt belong in a thread here.. The fact that Sage is sooo configurable is a major plus and something I do enjoy about it.. I played with config for about 2 more weeks before i stopped continually tweaking it (something that wouldnt have happened in VMC).. I havent even started playing with the phaseshifter yet


I noticed some wireless talk in the thread aswell...

I have 1 client using 802.11n.. It is less than 20ft from the ap, thru 1 wall.. I have miminal issues with SD or HD content (skipped frames w dropped packets - maybe 1-2 noticable spots (.5-1 sec gap in playback) every hr or so, but so is the nature of wireless)...

[Djc208]

Originally Posted by loomdog32

its very annoying when random channels pop up (expecially when UVerse adds channels (its one of my ch sources).. they are oddball 4 digit and nowhere near usable as I have Comcast)

There is an option in Sage now to prevent it from automatically adding new channels when they appear in the linup.

In VMC, I didnt have to play with the EPG like i DO in Sage.. go thru the first run utility to set color/contrast/brightness/screen size/audio setup (something very sorely missing in Sage).. It detects the tuners and sets them up automatically (I just have to setup the remote and delete chs from the EPG).. Install HDHR and setup in its utility.. open VMC and delete repeat chs in EPG

Um, not to be rude, but how is this not playing with the EPG? It might not be the same, (and I'll admit that Sage's method of re-mapping channels leaves a little to be desired) but it doesn't sound like VMC was "plug-and-play" either. Besides with VMC restriction on tuner number and type they can design it to be easier.

[loomdog32]

Originally Posted by Djc208

Um, not to be rude, but how is this not playing with the EPG? It might not be the same, (and I'll admit that Sage's method of re-mapping channels leaves a little to be desired) but it doesn't sound like VMC was "plug-and-play" either. Besides with VMC restriction on tuner number and type they can design it to be easier.

VMC, all I had to do was pick cable, pick correct lineup, exclude channels.. HDHR setup was done completly in its setup manager.. all i had to do was exclude the "duplicate" channels it creates (it would show the actual channel and a clone to pull epg data)..

Its just that.. With the number of tuners im using, I have to use multiple different EPGs to set them up..

IE: HDHR uses different channel numbers than the QAM tuners.. Now I have to use different EPG data to even map these channels and have to reassign logical numbers so I dont end up with oddball channel numbers..

Specific Example KMPH, HDHR has it on 88.6, QAM is 26.2, HDPVR and Analoge is 6 (Its an OTA Fox affilate, OTA is 26 or 26.2 logical and 28.2 Physical, cable via STB or Analoge is 6, QAM logical is 26.2 and physical is 88.6).. They are all connected to the same source, Comcast... Because I have to use multiple EPGs, they all by default get assigned different logical numbers and different callsigns (26 KMPH, 28.2 KMPH-DT2, 6 KMPHSD and 26 KMPH-SD).. now do this for 20+ different channels... Because of oddball things like this between the differnt EPG guides, it took forever. Now that I know to look for it, It doesnt take that long....

VMC didnt do this, granted I wasnt able to define as many tuners (which is really where this issue really steams from).. I guess what im really saying here is the ability to reuse the SAME EPG for multiple tuners where the channel exists on a different physical channel

[voidstar]

I can't believe the post results! I don't know anyone who has stuck with SageTV long enough to get it to work. I guess I like pain... I first tried using SageTV under Vista and it never worked. After constantly being told it's Vista's fault I switched my computer over to WinXP and found different problems. What didn't work? Crashing, video codec issues, EPG, lockups...

What does good mean?
Not having to restart SageTV and to have it download the EPG and map your channels without tweaking it.

Do you know what Zip2It is? Do you know how to turn on the debug flag? If you do I hope you voted poorly! A good program does NOT require you to understand how it's written. A good interface does not require its people to read the manual for everything.

Is there anything better than SageTV under Windows? No.
Will I switch to another program if it works better? Yes unless SageTV focuses on its users.

When SageTV is working I'm very thankful but the amount of time it took away from my family is not acceptable.

[stevech]

Sage has been an appliance here - running months on end on a dedicated XP PC, along with other apps. Just out-of-the-box, no codec hassles.

The Standard Def MVP is a PITA to get working, sometimes, but sage itself is straightforward.

[thorforyou]

After using MCE 2005 for 2 years I made the transition to SageTv.

It was amazing. The setup worked without a hitch. I did spend some time getting winamp and exetuner to work and I also spent a little time getting the serial control of my Diectv receiver to work but Sage is for the most part rock solid. In the past 2 years the product has improved and the developers are always trying to introduce more functionality.

The music app could use some better visualizations other than that I am really happy and highly recommend Sage to anyone looking for an ever improving media center.

I am happy to have made the move to sage.