SageTV media extender review on Extremetech

[Brent]

Here's a quote from the podcast

Originally Posted by DL.TV Podcast

It's complicated to setup, but if you're really "nerdy about your video" its good.

Overall the mention of SageTV was pretty short in the podcast. He dismissed it as being difficult to setup, but didn't dwell on his incorrect statements made in his review. He also showed the extender as well as a Hauppauge HD-PVR (called it the HD-DVR incorrectly but no big deal I guess).

Good to see the extender out on the podcast - just wish it was available for sale right now in case anyone is curious after watching the podcast

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by Brent

Here's a quote from the podcast



Overall the mention of SageTV was pretty short in the podcast. He dismissed it as being difficult to setup, but didn't dwell on his incorrect statements made in his review. He also showed the extender as well as a Hauppauge HD-PVR (called it the HD-DVR incorrectly but no big deal I guess).

Good to see the extender out on the podcast - just wish it was available for sale right now in case anyone is curious after watching the podcast

It was short, and the brevity limited the inaccuracy ; he's still confused (as many paeople are) about Placeshifter, I think. Overall, it is good that SageTV and the extender is getting more press.

[stanger89]

Just curious, what's confusing about placeshifter?

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Just curious, what's confusing about placeshifter?

The two questions that get most often asked by newbies regarding placeshifter are:

1. What is it? It's not SageTV Client, but it's like Client. Obviously Placeshifter can be used as a tool to "stream SageTV to remote devices" as the podcast mentioned, but it's not the only option and remote can be defined as either inside or outside the LAN.

2. How is it licensed? The whole concurrent license model (which I think is a GREAT thing, BTW) seems to cause some people to stumble initially, particularly when you throw in the extenders or a true Client license.

Both of these questions are easily addressed, and I think anyone who has any interest at all in building their own PVR system can quickly figure it out with a couple of questions.

[emveepee]

I actually think the review is far even though I haven't used the SageTV HD Extender. With my work with MythTV and GBPVR and their extenders I have come to realize that the majority of people don't want a PVR, some just want an xmbc or a video jukebox, some people are happy with UPnP on their PS3/xbox360 some people want a VMC extender.

The fact is I think most people like plug and play and I think it would be wrong to rate this as a higher then a three, even if part of a PVR system it probably ranks a 5.

Martin

[Brent]

Originally Posted by emveepee

I actually think the review is far even though I haven't used the SageTV HD Extender.

So what are you basing your opinion on then?

With my work with MythTV and GBPVR and their extenders I have come to realize that the majority of people don't want a PVR, some just want an xmbc or a video jukebox, some people are happy with UPnP on their PS3/xbox360 some people want a VMC extender.

And this is relevant because......

The fact is I think most people like plug and play and I think it would be wrong to rate this as a higher then a three, even if part of a PVR system it probably ranks a 5.

I'm probably missing your point here - are you saying that because the SageTV HD Extender is plug-and-play it is a 5 or a 3?

Seriously, the Popcorn Hour and the MVP are great for what they do, but the HD100 is way better. I'm all for allowing others to create "open source" extenders to do what they want Martin, but the HD100 with SageTV is pretty tough to beat - especially if you try it

[emveepee]

For me the answer to the question is simple, I don't think any media extender is worth 4 or 5 for the average computer user, your neighbour, your colleague etc. There are some many pros and cons to each device that this is too difficult. As a SageTV extender this probably rates a 5 but this doesn't mean that it is perfect I note several shortcoming but that isn't my point. I do how SageTV works and I do know how media extenders work so I am sure I have a very good idea how this box would perform.

If you don't want SageTV, or don't want the hassle of any PVR, then these devices can be compared a little more equitably. In this category SageTV doesn't really stand out to make it a four or five. I brought up MythTV GBPVR because I can configure these system (as well as SageTV and BTV too) easily but I do think most people cannot, so you have to give some reall weight to zero-conf. This is why there are iPods and Apple-TV's it's not a question of technical superiority.

I would be happy to compare the Popcorn Hour functionality (which is way overrated too, and I have more than one) to the SageTV HD extender but that serves no purpose but I don't think the can compared on a basic scale.

Martin

[cncb]

Originally Posted by emveepee

I do how SageTV works and I do know how media extenders work so I am sure I have a very good idea how this box would perform.

It performs as well as a PC running Sage except without all the configuration/setup. Any shortcomings would be in the Sage software and not the extender.

[Brent]

Martin,
I'll be honest here. I'm not sure what you are even saying.

[emveepee]

What I think I am reading is this device deserves a 4 or 5 even because SageTV is worth a 4 or 5. That's too biased for my liking. An objective look would also look at what this device doesn't too and that is what it makes it average.

Martin

[reggie14]

I kind of agree with Martin. The HD100 is great at what it does: it's a SageTV extender and nothing else. The HD100 is a pretty bad general-purpose media extender. I'm not sure how that translates into a single "star" rating. But mainly because the HD100 is tied to a single platform, and partially because there's no 802.11n option, I certainly wouldn't give it a perfect rating.

[dgeezer]

I sometimes get the feeling that the reviewers set out to spend a couple hours playing with a new device and writing a review only to find out that it will require a bit of work to get the HD100 working if they aren't already running SageTV. Even comparing it to the popcornhour (which I used to own) isn't really fair since the PCH is able to perform quite a few functions just by plugging it into your network and turning it on.

The best thing about the HD100 to me and probably most anyone else who already uses SageTV is it's tight integration, no codec issues and zero configuration. Trying to review it as a stand alone device isn't really fair.

For someone like me, who has an interest in PVR's and HTPC's but just enough knowledge to be a danger to myself and others, the HD100 has definitely been a 5-star experience. I used GBPVR for years and never had any problems with the software itself. All my problems were network, codec and client/server related. I read Brent's review of the HD100 and made the switch to Sage based solely on his review of the HD100.

If the popcornhour ever gets the same level of integration into GBpvr as the HD100 has with SageTV I would probably switch back. By this I mean that there is no way for my wife or daughter to get the client to do anything except display SageTV on the TV upstairs. You would be amazed at the number of ways they could screw up a client PC and how it's always my fault.

[mickp]

I think that it's only fair to give ratings based on how well a device performs in it's category.

When reviewing the HD100 it should be compared to other devices designed to perform the same function. A head to head comparison with all of the other Sage HD extender devices would surely give it at least 4/5.

I'd be interested in a review that compared VMC extenders and the HD100 starting from the pov of an existing server infrastructure. How easy was each device to get up and running oob, how do the picture quality, responsiveness, output options, network connectivity compare.

Shame on these reviewers for not taking the time to understand what it is that they're reviewing. All of the reviews that I've seen have it arse about. They assume that Jo Bloggs is going to purchase the extender as an alternative to the pch or that dlink thing that Brent reviewed and go on about how laborious the setup of the "software" aka Sage is compared to the do nothing file sharing guff that comes with the "non media centre extender" category of devices.

FFS reviewers!!!1! If you're going to bother putting pen to paper re: the HD100 then please try to comprehend that you're comparing it to either an MCE extender or an as yet non existent Tivo extender.

</rant>

Mick.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by dgeezer

I used GBPVR for years and never had any problems with the software itself. All my problems were network, codec and client/server related. I read Brent's review of the HD100 and made the switch to Sage based solely on his review of the HD100.

If the popcornhour ever gets the same level of integration into GBpvr as the HD100 has with SageTV I would probably switch back.

Since I've only toyed with GBPVR a few times without really delving deep into it my experience with it is pretty light. So I'm curious, why would you switch back to GBPVR over SageTV? What did you like better about it?

Regarding the PopcornHour, can you view liveTV with it? Using one of the skins/hacks can you view GBPVR's regular interface when using it as an extender? Does it require configuring, setup etc to get it to work?

[Brent]

Originally Posted by emveepee

What I think I am reading is this device deserves a 4 or 5 even because SageTV is worth a 4 or 5. That's too biased for my liking. An objective look would also look at what this device doesn't too and that is what it makes it average.

Martin

I look at it this way. The HD100 extender is just that - an HTPC extender. It should be reviewed on the basis of how well it performs that task as an HTPC extender and that alone. Why? Because the buyer/reader has 2 decisions:
1. Which HTPC program do I want to use - does it satisfy my needs/wants as a HTPC program. Does it do what I want it to? Is it easy to set up? How much will it cost me? etc. etc.
2. How good is the HD100 as an extender? How well does it perform as an extender to the HTPC program (in this case SageTV) and does it perform the functions I need it to? Is it easy to set up (the extender not the software?) Can I view and play back the content I want to how I want to? Is it cost effective vs. diy?

So if you are reviewing SageTV vs. competing HTPC programs your focus is on #1 above. You obviously have to consider your options for clientPCs and/or extenders, but the focus here is on the software itself.

If you are reviewing the extender, you focus on #2 with a quick look at #1. That is how the VMC extenders are reviewed and how the AppleTV is reviewed.

I look at MythTV and compare it to competing products. It is more difficult and unwieldy than I am willing to deal with in my home so it was abandoned. BUT I make that decision with the focus on #1. Similar comparison with GBpvr and the popcorn hour. If I was looking at a review of the PCH I would look at its capabilities and a review of its performance with a focus on #2 because the decision of which HTPC software or platform I want/need has already been determined from the review based on #1.

Not sure we'll all agree on this, but this is how I look at it. Compare the HD100 to the VMC extenders. You'd be hard-pressed to find a VMC extender that could handle the things the HD100 can. You'll also find that the reviews are based on the extender itself and its performance - NOT on the pros and cons of VMC itself.

[dgeezer]

Originally Posted by Brent

Since I've only toyed with GBPVR a few times without really delving deep into it my experience with it is pretty light. So I'm curious, why would you switch back to GBPVR over SageTV? What did you like better about it?

Part of why I liked it better is simply because it is what I used for several years and I am more familiar with it. But there are several things I like much better.

1. Sub provides hooks to external batch files when most major events occur. Such as when a recording completes or the EPG updates. This, for example, makes it much simpler to run comskip on your recordings since GBpvr will run your postprocessing.bat file after each recording (or even during). This can trigger comskip or showananlyzer as well as file conversions etc. Therefore there is no dirmon or comskip monitor required. I was able to have my server go into standby as soon as comskip was done whereas I have to keep my server powered on 24/7 with Sagetv. This seems like such a waste since the HD100 will bring the server out of standby and display the home menu screen within a couple seconds of the time it takes with the server powered on all the time.

2. All your recordings are maintained in a directory structure instead of all being in one big folder. This makes it a trivial matter to delete, say, all your recordings from the olympics or "Dancing with the Stars" when the season is over.

3. EVR support on Vista.

Originally Posted by Brent

Regarding the PopcornHour, can you view liveTV with it? Using one of the skins/hacks can you view GBPVR's regular interface when using it as an extender? Does it require configuring, setup etc to get it to work?

Yes, liveTV works. Yes you can view the interface. Yes, it does require signifcantly more configuring than the HD-100. But then almost anything in the world of computing would.

I bought a popcornhour when they first came out and GBpvr support was in it's infancy. Even then it would show the UI and playback recordedTV perfectly. However, configuration was tough and not terribly stable. From what I read it has come a long way. The popcornhour is a far more versatile device than the HD100. it supports an internal harddrive, USB drives, has a torrent client etc. It can also do internet radio and playback from a NAS without any PC's on the network running, but probably not with the GBpvr interface. I wasn't able to get a stable enough config for the family and so I succumbed to the Ebay frenzy at the time and made almost enough to buy the HD100.

I really do like SageTV and think that it is a great program and is actually on par with GBpvr in most ways.

[emveepee]

Originally Posted by Brent

Regarding the PopcornHour, can you view liveTV with it? Using one of the skins/hacks can you view GBPVR's regular interface when using it as an extender? Does it require configuring, setup etc to get it to work?

LiveTV works, including up/down by number and channel return. It does takes about 8 seconds between channels but I am working on that. Time shifting works too.

The GBPVR interface is presented with 32bit colour. Most people use 1280x720 on HD monitors but the OSD can do 1920x1080 or SD resolutions. I took the original Hauppauge protocol interface and modernized it but it is standard enough that it connects to the old Hauppauge MVP server but the screen display is much faster and look better.

All skins and plugins should work. A good example is the Netflix plugin which provides the UI but DRM prevents file playing but the vendor is working on this. My favourite plugin provides access to mms:// and Real Audio internet radio streams to add to shoutcast style mp3 and aac streams that are supported.

You have to configure GBPVR to setup up the services, open Windows firewall etc and tell it the mac address or it thinks it is an MVP. On the client side you have to provide access to the application via a share, usb, or the internal hard disk. It used to require a lot more configuration but the author and I have now automated most of the. Configuring the shares for DVD ISO or VIDEO_TS folder takes a bit of configuration effort.

There major things I am still working on relate to not having control of the device while the actual media streams. Resume is coming, no OSD on video, and no com skip (just 30 seconds plus and minus). Even though the Popcorn Hour has the best ranked (why I hate rankings!) player by mpcclub and others, I don't think it does a good job handling bad mpeg-ts files and it is surprising how many there are. It also doesn't support dvr-ms without transcoding or all divx files so again if you want this maybe a vmc extender or divx-connected device would be better.

Martin

[wayner]

What's the deal with the MONTHS long delay with availability for this product? For me it is vapourware until I can actually buy one and it sounds like that might not happen until sometime around Christmas. Did Sage underestimate the demand for this product or is there some other issue?

[bcjenkins]

As a small company I assume the outlay of the money to buy units is always a challenge. Once you earn enough money back from the current batch you have to go through the process of setting up another production run, etc.

B

PS - I wouldn't call it vapourware because they have already produced the item. I think out of stock is more apropos.

[wayner]

You're right - vapourware is a bit harsh but these have been unavailable since I swithced to Sage a month or so ago and it looks like the wait could be several months more.