Why I don't like the default STV Part #1: The Main Menu

[evilpenguin]

Intro:

Originally Posted by GKusnick

part of my frustration with this sort of discussion is that it often goes likes this:...
"What don't you like about the stock UI?"
"It looks dated."
"OK, but what does that mean exactly?"
"You know, not enough bling."
"Fine, but what do you mean by bling?"
"You know, flash, sparkle, pizazz."
"All right, but what specific changes would you make to improve it?"
"I'd add more bling, make it flashier, bring it up to date."

And around and around...

And I usually participate in those threads

But, as you say, its never more than generalities like "omgz, I hate it!" vs. "omgz, I love it!" and eventually it dissolves into chaos to the point where the thread just dies off, which is a shame because I think there are things that need to be discussed.

The reason I'm getting into this level of screen specifics and not talking about the STV as a whole is that I hope I can encourage people to discuss the gray areas between dismissive statements like "omgz, I love it!" and "omgz, I hate it!". I know I personally don't hate it! There's *a lot* of stuff I do like about it and I'll get to that when I talk about those screens (ex: Imported Videos). But, there's also a lot of little/big stuff that just drives me *crazy* and I wanted to call those out too.

Its OK to say, "I like the default STV... but this thing here bugs me".

I do regret how I named the thread, its very combative and I didn't mean for it to be. I wrote the title when I first sat down to write the post and didn't think to change it before I posted. I also don't like how it sounded like I was comparing the default STV to those others screens. My intention was to just to show which of my specific complaints were addressed in other packages. I may still edit that section a bit to reflect what I was going for.

P.S - I also call for a ban on the word "Bling" in this thread (). I recommend visual elements.

Well, first of all, lets get some good stuff out of the way. First of all, the core animations are smooth a silk and look great. I'm also a fan of the blue backgrounds SageTV uses. I've always loaded them up as my background whenever I use SageMC. The new glass button is also very nice, last time I used the default STV it was this ugly metallic thing that felt completely out of place.

OK, onto the problems: is it me, or is does it bother anyone else that this menu is 98% text. I could almost recreate the entirety of the user experience via an ASCII menu... so I did.

G:\perl2dvd\Development>mainMenu.pl

************************************
< Sage{TV}  Main Menu      [REC][x]D
                         Tues 1:11PM
 [SageTV Recordings]
  Watch Live TV
  Program Guide
  Media Center
  Online Services
  Setup
  Standby

************************************

Look familiar? The clock even works. (I could also attach it to the webserver and make some of the buttons work too. CLI Sage FTW )

Accepting the text only buttons for a second, its also a little weird that there's just some boring text up there that says "Main Menu"? I get that they want to make sure people know where they are when they're navigating, but couldn't it be conveyed visually? I shouldn't need to read a street sign just to know that I'm at the central hub of all activity in the entire program. In every other program I tried I could instantly distinguish between when I was on the main menu vs. the sub menus just by the look and feel.

Also, why is entire right side of the screen completely empty. Its not like that's a small amount of space either. I measured it on my TV and it amounts to about ~2 sqft of nothingness. Seems like that's a perfect place to put some visual elements to correspond with the menu items to make their functions more clear or at least a preview window so when you're watching a video and happen to pass though the main menu it doesn't disappear on you. It makes absolutely no sense to me: every other screen is in the entire program is packed wall to wall with stuff, *except* the main menu. Its like all of the sudden they decided to go all zen on us. Less isn't more here: its just underutilized screen space.

Now, lets discuss the main menu items themselves a bit...

* SageTV Recordings - Sure, why not? I'd just call it Recorded TV, but whatever.
* Live TV - I've never clicked that button once in my entire 5 years of being a user, so why it would rank as #2 on the most prominent list in the entire application is a mystery to me. Its not really even the recommended way to jump into watching LiveTV in a PVR, I'm fairly sure most people do it by going into the program guide and picking their starting own point. When you press this button it seems to bring me to a random show I'm currently recording recording. The only reason I could see to use this would be for channel surfing so I'd have expected it to grab one of my free tuners and start me at Channel 2. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this menu item is redundant and should go. And I don't want to hear any whining like "What if someone uses this all the time?" The default UI forces users to adapt to its layout and functionality in almost every screen so why make a concession here?
* Program Guide, Schedule Recordings, Setup, Online Services - Says exactly what they do and are definitely important enough to be included.
* Media Center - This item is too important to have any ambiguity. Looking at this list my GF didn't have a clue where to go to get to my music. I think this is a perfect example where a little graphic with the menu item would have cleared it right up for her.
* Standby - Every other program out there represents this function with a graphic/button in the top left/right corner of the main menu. Having this in text form in the list makes me feel like i'm using a clunky CLI based menu rather than a rich UI experience. Plus, most people use SageTV with a remote so they already have easy access to this function with the click of a button. I think this can go also, but be replaced by a little shutdown icon in the top row.

Now a quick look at other applications main menus...

1) SageMC nBlue - This really address's a lot of my major complaints, which is why I use it on a daily basis. Its not perfect, but its also the volunteer work of a talented and *very small* group SageTV users so I don't think it should be held to the same level of scrutiny as that of a final commercial product (although it would still do pretty well).

2) MCE - Wow, this is way worse than I expecting. The animations make it feel kinda alive, but its also only a hair more visually pleasing/useful than SageTV's which isn't too great of a distinction. At least it centers the text up, is unique enough to be easily visually distinguished from every other menu/mode, and a few other improvements over Sage's. But I could honestly have a field day picking apart this menu too. Thank god VMC 7 is just around the corner.

3) XBMC - Ahh, my favorite menu so far. Visually distinct/interesting, descriptive/obvious menu items (except scripts), great usage of screen real estate, and some great/useful eye candy (subtly fading pictures, gently pulsing button, and a smooth text roller at the bottom) that instantly gives you the impression that you're about to walk into a very polished and enjoyable experience. People should really fire this up for themselves just to see what i'm talking about. It really looks *that* good in motion. Keep in mind I haven't even touched the rest of the product yet, so I can't speak for anything else.

5) Media Portal - Ugh, i'm torn here. Layout wise they're pretty good and that MP dude is kinda cute. But there are also some serious problems here. First of all, I instinctual know what two of those top circle icons do but I haven't the slightest clue what the others do. Secondly, the animations just look awful on my PC, right away it gives me a bad feeling for the whole product and I haven't even pressed a single button yet. I'm 90% sure this has to be a setup issue because the MP devs are too good to be satisfied with something that looks like this.

6) Boxee - Well, i'm not really sure Boxee has a main menu. The first screen it dumps you on is 50% other people's stuff, 25% a status update on how much of your media its imported, and 25% stuff I've already watched. If I'm firing up the program to actually do something, as is the case 99% of the time, I'm already 1 click away from anything even remotely useful. However, once you click the left arrow, a global menu shifts in from the left side that gives you the standard options you'd expect to see initially. Bear in mind I'm only including this because its popular, but its not really fair to the Boxee devs as they're still alpha and in the process of designing their UI. Its like judging a cake against a bowl of batter. Given the amount of quality work they've done already I'm fairly convinced they'll come up with a good final product.

I had planed to do the entire UI in one sitting, but I've already spent 4 hours on just one menu so I think I'll make this a multi-part series. I know this one seems a little harsh but software design reviews aren't about giving out warm fuzzies, they're about being objective and getting all valid view points heard. The main menu is the face of the entire programs and, quite frankly, Sage's is rather homely and unimpressive. Most of the other screens I plan to look at later will fare much better.

Good Comments/Questions:

Originally Posted by ghostlobster

Why are you showing XP Media Center 2005 instead of Vista MC? Yeah, the XP MCE interface was about on par with SageTV, but Vista MC is MUCH better.

I really wanted to but my machine is only XP, and I didn't want to post about anything I couldn't launch, use, and get a feel for.

Originally Posted by aaronb

...except one big nit I'd pick with XBMC is that the scrolling RSS feed is turned on by default. For the casual user to fire it up for the first time and have some random text scrolling by about interviews with the developers and some award the program won just seems a little tacky and unnecessary.

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

Another element that I never even considered was the Text Scroller in XBMC. I'm torn on the usefulness of a strictly RSS scroller, but if you were to treat it like a news/sports channel where you intersperse other information with the RSS feeds it could be more useful. For instance, you could scroll the current weather, disk usage, the next/previous 5 recordings, new episodes of top 10 favorites, etc. It could be a nice way to pack in a lot of information in without overwhelming the main menu visually.

Originally Posted by wayner

Sorry to come in late but I think you sold short the XP MCE Main Menu. It dynamically adds different items depending on what element you are on - in the image I have posted shows what happens when you have scrolled down to My TV - it gives you different functionality that you can directly go to by moving over to the icons that are to the right of My TV.

Originally Posted by elaw

I know that's been very true in my case, my wife never showed much interest in Sage when I used the stock UI, but she's shown a lot more since I switched to SageMC!

I think it has a lot to do with initial accessibility. I work for a big company now and the design guys are always talking about "The first 5", referring to retail studies that have shown that if the average person is at all confused in their first 5 minutes with a product they have a tendency to completely write it off vs. if they make it past "the first 5" they're more likely to accept confusion and explore to resolve it. Since the Main Menu definitely falls within "the first 5" its a relevant concern.

I should also mention that I really hate the main menu screens that "hide" some of the menu options in the big long scrolling list. The menu items should be on screen all the time and visible. The faded menu of MCE is just plain wrong. It might look nice but it suffers in usability and I just can't agree with that trade off.

Good Pictures:
Some Default STV mods: Fonceur, GKusnick, wado1971
Other UI's: Moxi/Kaleidescape

[aaronb]

I agree with your assessments for the most part, except one big nit I'd pick with XBMC is that the scrolling RSS feed is turned on by default. For the casual user to fire it up for the first time and have some random text scrolling by about interviews with the developers and some award the program won just seems a little tacky and unnecessary. It's nice as a custom feature one could turn on (I immediately turn it off as soon as I install), but having it on by default, with a feed that most users will not really care about is a bad design decision IMO, especially since it's not very intuitive finding where to turn it off (and the reason it is not is that after a few years of program changes/additions the setting screens could use a revamp, a point you'll probably get to in your assessment )

Boxee's home screen REALLY needs some work, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt since it is still alpha. In all honesty most of the Boxee hype is being driven by their Hulu and Netflix integration.

The one area where Sage (both flavors you show) really lags behind all of the ones you show here is that it just doesn't look like it was designed by an artist, or someone with graphic design experience. It's not necessarily "bling" that it's lacking, but it just doesn't have that immediate visual appeal. I'd say the same for Media Portal as well, though they have just a slight edge over Sage in that regard.

[ghostlobster]

Why are you showing XP Media Center 2005 instead of Vista MC? Yeah, the XP MCE interface was about on par with SageTV, but Vista MC is MUCH better.

[stanger89]

Just goes to show you how personal this stuff is. XBMC bored me after about 5 seconds. I've never really liked the random "icons" for the selected menu item. I prefer professional to "cute". Actually two of the UI's I've found most interesting (though unfortunately not had the pleasure of using are Moxi and Kaleidescape.

Kaleidescape is the epitome of minimalist, yet at the same time, somewhat elegant:



But then there's Moxi, which just seems to be about "perfect" IMO. Just clean, polished, professional UI. Starting with my favorite thing, the timebar:

About 100x better than Sage's monstrosity.


Overall, if we could get Moxi's UI on top of Sage's core, I think a lot of people would be very happy. Though probably pass on the cross-bar guide

[evilpenguin]

Originally Posted by ghostlobster

Why are you showing XP Media Center 2005 instead of Vista MC? Yeah, the XP MCE interface was about on par with SageTV, but Vista MC is MUCH better.

I really wanted to but my machine is only XP, and I didn't want to post about anything I couldn't launch, use, and get a feel for.

Originally Posted by aaronb

I agree with your assessments for the most part, except one big nit I'd pick with XBMC is that the scrolling RSS feed is turned on by default. For the casual user to fire it up for the first time and have some random text scrolling by about interviews with the developers and some award the program won just seems a little tacky and unnecessary.

I fired it up again, watched it for a while, and sure enough you're absolutely right. That scroll bar, while looking very polished, doesn't actually provide any useful information unless you customize it. That's too bad, I was hoping they would have done some neat stuff with it and had it scroll useful system info, stats, and news by default.

XBMC bored me after about 5 seconds

It might still bore me too, I really haven't done anything with it except scroll around the main menu yet. I'm trying to take everything menu by menu before I think about the products as a whole.

I've never really liked the random "icons" for the selected menu item.

I'm not a fan of them because I like/dislike them, but they are incredibly helpful for navigation. For instance if Sage put a little inline CD/Film/Picture icon next to the "Media Center" menu item it would be immediately obvious what's in there. Heck, they've got a picture to go along with every menu item for standalone mode in the HD-200 so they obviously recognize the benefit too.

But then there's Moxi, which just seems to be about "perfect" IMO. Just clean, polished, professional UI. Starting with my favorite thing, the timebar:

Agreed, that timebar is dead sexy. Also, I love that little text preview for the favorite settings.

[TallMomof2]

My main quibble with STV Main menu is that I don't care for having videos (from DVDs and legal online sources) separated from recorded TV. I would love to have it all in one area so that it's easier to access. Oddly most of my movies are under recorded TV (HD movies have far better PQ than DVD movies) and my TV series are under Videos (ripped from DVDs).

At least the Search function finds everything. Still looking for a plugin to merge all my video files but haven't found one yet.

[evilpenguin]

Originally Posted by TallMomof2

My main quibble with STV Main menu is that I don't care for having videos (from DVDs and legal online sources) separated from recorded TV. I would love to have it all in one area so that it's easier to access.

I'm 100% with you there, I'm actually working on a SageMC plug-in that does just that.

[S_M_E]

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

is it me, or is does it bother anyone else that this menu is 98% text.

Since you're asking... It doesn't bother me, I like the stock UI.

Originally Posted by TallMomof2

My main quibble with STV Main menu is that I don't care for having videos (from DVDs and legal online sources) separated from recorded TV. I would love to have it all in one area so that it's easier to access.

Occasionally some of my recorded TV shows up in the imported videos and I end up removing it but it should be an option to add it if people want it to show up there. I like them separated, personally.

[loomdog32]

Originally Posted by ghostlobster

Why are you showing XP Media Center 2005 instead of Vista MC? Yeah, the XP MCE interface was about on par with SageTV, but Vista MC is MUCH better.

I totally agree with this one.. I would have to say IMO, that Vista Media Center has one of the best Main Menus. Its not as "blingy" as XBMC (which kinda looks crouded), but is completly accessible .. Scroll up/down and select options simular to XPMC or scroll right/left to submenu options (scroll up/down to TV, then right/left to live to, guide, movies ect).......

I miss this functionally.. The nBlue theme for SageMC is simular to this, but no where the same as far as the "feel" from VMC..... Also miss the Sports menu, oh well..


Also, why use nBlue theme and not the default theme for SageMC?? Wouldnt that make a comparison like this more legit?? I mean after all, it is a plugin of a plugin...

[Fuzzy]

I would like to add that i really like the SageMC with the CenterSage theme, and have been using it exclusively for a while now. Very clean, minimalistic approach, Large icon based, with tect helpers. (I do wish the text stuck with the non-selected icons though).

[Polypro]

While you guys were staring at UI's, I watched Warrick die on CSI in HD

Polish the stock UI, but don't change it...that's why we have SageMC.

I like movies separated from DVDs.

P

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by Polypro

Polish the stock UI, but don't change it...that's why we have SageMC.
P

As far as I can tell, this thread is an exploration of why evilpenguin doesn't like the stock ui; no one's talking about changing it. That's the other thread (the one where "keep it like it is" crowd attemped to invalidate any reason to change it).

My point is, if you like the current stock ui, then why? And, to keep the thread on topic, could you frame your answer in terms of design and not other mitigating factors like development cost, alternative UI's, etc?

[S_M_E]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

As far as I can tell, this thread is an exploration of why evilpenguin doesn't like the stock ui; no one's talking about changing it. That's the other thread (the one where "keep it like it is" crowd attemped to invalidate any reason to change it).

My point is, if you like the current stock ui, then why? And, to keep the thread on topic, could you frame your answer in terms of design and not other mitigating factors like development cost, alternative UI's, etc?

You mean where the pro-bling crowd attacked those that disagree and these are discussion threads not personal blogs so don't get upset when people don't agree with what you want.

[Polypro]

Look...these threads pop up every week...after week...after week. If it was in the Customization or SageMC category, I probably wouldn't have even posted. But in the General area, to me, is like waiving a flag to the stock UI loving users. (which is fine, see below).

It's an internet board, I get it. I love reading every post (and I have no problem with EvilP or anyone else, hugs to all) but when I have a different take, I reply.

What do I like about the stock UI...I don't know, what do I like about Heidi Klum?...the overall package works for me. Sage knows by now, the score of lovers to haters...they'll do what their going to do.

Again, love all around, I just wanted to reply with a differing POV.

P

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by S_M_E

You mean where the pro-bling crowd attacked those that disagree and these are discussion threads not personal blogs so don't get upset when people don't agree with what you want.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that everyone who disagreed with you was a) pro-bling, and/or b) upset. As for personal opinion, I believe I was soliciting viewpoints about why you (and other stock-ui lovers) like it so much. I do believe that comments like 'I like it, so leave it alone" are not very conducive to a design discussion, and I tried to point that out.

[jimwhite]

This looks to be a fascinating thread. To the Stock UI lovers: Just read the title... it's one man's opinion on the downside of the UI... and the discussion will center on that - the down side. Sure, there are many, like you, who are happy with things the way they are... fine. And nobody here has a real right to question your motivation. Opinions are just that. But let's keep it simple. You've stated your opinon. Now discuss why... not just keep re-stating that opinion.

[S_M_E]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

I'm not sure where you get the idea that everyone who disagreed with you was a) pro-bling, and/or b) upset. As for personal opinion, I believe I was soliciting viewpoints about why you (and other stock-ui lovers) like it so much. I do believe that comments like 'I like it, so leave it alone" are not very conducive to a design discussion, and I tried to point that out.

I don't know where *you* got the idea that I said "everyone" and nobody said "I like it, so leave it alone" either. I'd say nice try but it wasn't...

Originally Posted by jimwhite

This looks to be a fascinating thread. To the Stock UI lovers: Just read the title... it's one man's opinion on the downside of the UI... and the discussion will center on that - the down side.

As I said, not everyone agrees about said downsides and that doesn't mean we can't post our opinions too. The whole don't post if you don't agree way of thinking just isn't going to cut it.

[sainswor99]

I'm excited about the second part of this thread (where we'll actually go into details about evilpenguin's dislike of other screens in the SageTV stock ui), because I have some basic polishing peeves on those screens, but for now, let me limit my comments to just the main screen.

Why does the highlight bar highlight 3/4 of the way across the screen? I think ep already pointed out the dead space on the main menu, but I'm curious as to why you would only choose to highlight part of the screen. Granted, it's wider than all of the characters on the selection choices, but yet it's not full screen.

One of the things that I did notice looking at the other options is that very few of the other UI's offer more than five textual choices at a time; icons represent the little used options instead. (BTW, stanger, is there an equivalent main menu for Moxi?)

My general reaction to the main page is there's too much stuff there; when I enter my PVR system, I mostly want to Watch something, or Listen to something. I may occasionally need to adjust Settings, but not often.

[jimwhite]

I may occasionally need to adjust Settings, but not often.

Hopefully, anyway...
I agree... the main menu should (by default) contain the paths or tasks that the casual user would care to excercise, not the administrator.

The whole don't post if you don't agree way of thinking just isn't going to cut it.

Not my stance... just suggested going beyond the fact and explore why... that's beneficial to both sides of the issue.

[S_M_E]

Originally Posted by jimwhite

Hopefully, anyway...
I agree... the main menu should (by default) contain the paths or tasks that the casual user would care to excercise, not the administrator.

You have to be able get to the settings from somewhere, if not the main menu, then where? Some of the menu items could be consolidated and moved around but you still have to be able to get to them. For example (sticking to the main menu), you could move "Schedule Recordings" and "Setup" to one menu item named "Settings" and you could move Online Services to the Media Center but that's going to leave a lot of blank space wasted unless the font size or space between selections increased.

Not my stance... just suggested going beyond the fact and explore why... that's beneficial to both sides of the issue.

Thanks for the suggestion but the OP asked a question and I answered. If that answer doesn't go far enough for you I could elaborate but I don't think that's necessary at this point. The point still stands that this thread is not closed to opposing viewpoints no matter how the topic is worded and too many people here (perhaps not you) attack those that have a different view to try to get them to shut up and that won't work with me.