Why I don't like the default STV Part #1: The Main Menu

[Ryokurin]

Originally Posted by aaronb

The one area where Sage (both flavors you show) really lags behind all of the ones you show here is that it just doesn't look like it was designed by an artist, or someone with graphic design experience. It's not necessarily "bling" that it's lacking, but it just doesn't have that immediate visual appeal. I'd say the same for Media Portal as well, though they have just a slight edge over Sage in that regard.

If I recall it originally was designed by a GA. Its been a while, but I recall seeing a credit back in the v2 days. Either way it was light years better than the UI in v1.1. The issue is that its dated, but at the time (2003 ish) it was competitive if you look at the competition back then. (Showshifter, MCE 2003, myHTPC)

Its kind of a impasse. Put the resources into a new UI, but upset the ones who don't want change, keep up both but thats more work when new items are added in the future, or keep it as it is, and deal with the people who want more.

[Fonceur]

I tend to agree with most points of the OP, which is why I went for a slightly modified version in my MainLobby plugin. Adding some little existing icons, a description of the selected menu item, and filling that void on the right... Replace "Monitored device" by Setup and add back things like "Online services" and you get the idea... There's no bling in there, it just about clarity and efficient use of the space...

[blade]

I agree with a lot of things in the original post. Though I hate the animations. The first thing I do whether it's SageMC or the default stv is disable them. The 2nd thing I do is customize the menus to remove things such as live TV and rename the recordings and a few other menus. Overall I like the functionality of the default STV, but it would be nice if it were tweaked a little.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

And, to keep the thread on topic, could you frame your answer in terms of design and not other mitigating factors like development cost, alternative UI's, etc?

Why should those other factors be closed to discussion? Good design serves mutliple goals, not just visual appeal. If a clean, simple design without a lot of high-concept graphics can help keep development costs under control, that should count as a point in its favor, and it's completely appropriate for a small company like Sage to prefer such designs. Microsoft can afford to pay for a lot of bling. Sage can't, but must rely on third-party devs to provide it for those users who want it. Pretending those constraints don't exist doesn't help the discussion.

For the record, I'm not a big fan of the stock UI either visually or functionally, and I don't use it much except for configuration. I don't use SageMC either (I think the word "My" ought to be banned from UI design for at least five years). I use a custom UI that I built myself; here's what my Main Menu looks like:



The items in the right panel change depending on which left-panel item is selected (much like the stock UI's Detailed Setup screen), thus collapsing the functions of four or five stock UI screens into one menu. There are some configurable transition effects (fade, scroll, slide, spin, etc.) in how the right panel changes its contents; that's the only bling to speak of. The snowflake watermark is configurable and I change it seasonally. Personally I have no problem at all with the fact that this menu is all text and has the words "Main Menu" at the top. My goal with this design was not to blow anybody's mind or keep up with the competition but to group functions logically and make efficient use of screen space while keeping things clean and simple and easy to understand.

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

Why should those other factors be closed to discussion? Good design serves mutliple goals, not just visual appeal. If a clean, simple design without a lot of high-concept graphics can help keep development costs under control, that should count as a point in its favor, and it's completely appropriate for a small company like Sage to prefer such designs. Microsoft can afford to pay for a lot of bling. Sage can't, but must rely on third-party devs to provide it for those users who want it. Pretending those constraints don't exist doesn't help the discussion.

My point was that relying on those factors as your only answer to why you like something doesn't help the discussion, either. One of the problems with design discusssions about the stock ui is that they inevitebly devolve into something like:

"I like it"
"Why?"
"Because it's cheap, and if you like something else, there's addons for that".
"OK, but aside from that, what do you like about the stock ui?"
"I like it"
"O.k.... Why?"
"Because it's cheap, and if you like something else, there's addons for that".
"O...K.... Assume that changes are free, and that you could have anything in the world, would you still use the stock UI?"
"Yeah, cause I like it."
"Why?"
"Because it's cheap, and if you like something else, there's addons for that".



I was just trying to delve deeper than that, but apparantly some people mistook that for an attempt to push them out of the conversation. Rather than continuing to argue the point, I thought I would simply state my own opinion about what I dislike about the stock ui.

Also, just to clarify, good design is not just about graphics and/or animations; it should also include strong navigation and consistency. But since we're just talking about the main menu, we're a bit pigeonholed.

Originally Posted by GKusnick

For the record, I'm not a big fan of the stock UI either visually or functionally, and I don't use it much except for configuration. I don't use SageMC either (I think the word "My" ought to be banned from UI design for at least five years).

I feel the same way about the word "bling" in design conversations.

Originally Posted by GKusnick

I use a custom UI that I built myself; here's what my Main Menu looks like:



The items in the right panel change depending on which left-panel item is selected (much like the stock UI's Detailed Setup screen), thus collapsing the functions of four or five stock UI screens into one menu. There are some configurable transition effects (fade, scroll, slide, spin, etc.) in how the right panel changes its contents; that's the only bling to speak of. The snowflake watermark is configurable and I change it seasonally. Personally I have no problem at all with the fact that this menu is all text and has the words "Main Menu" at the top. My goal with this design was not to blow anybody's mind or keep up with the competition but to group functions logically and make efficient use of screen space while keeping things clean and simple and easy to understand.

Proves my above point; visually simple, but logically consistent. I think that's much more appealing thant the stock ui.

[jaminben]

Even though I'm part of the "Bling Brigade" as its been put I do rather like the look of GKusnick UI. Clean, simple and to the point.

In my mind GKusnick UI is what Sage should be aiming for.

Just my opinion

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

I feel the same way about the word "bling" in design conversations.

I agree with you there; part of my frustration with this sort of discussion is that it often goes likes this:

"What don't you like about the stock UI?"
"It looks dated."
"OK, but what does that mean exactly?"
"You know, not enough bling."
"Fine, but what do you mean by bling?"
"You know, flash, sparkle, pizazz."
"All right, but what specific changes would you make to improve it?"
"I'd add more bling, make it flashier, bring it up to date."

And around and around.

For what it's worth, a while back I did create a theme for the stock STV that captures some of the feel of my custom UI (but not the functional layout, obviously), and that's what I use when I resort to the stock UI for configuration and such.

[nyplayer]

GKusnick,

I like that UI simple and Easy. I would like to use it on my laptop client. Any chance of posting it?

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by nyplayer

GKusnick,

I like that UI simple and Easy. I would like to use it on my laptop client. Any chance of posting it?

It works well for my needs but is not really ready for public consumption as is; it would take some work to clean up the loose ends and package it for general use. I've been trying to move it in that direction and do some of that cleanup each time I work on it, but at this point I don't have a timetable for release. Sorry.

[evilpenguin]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

part of my frustration with this sort of discussion is that it often goes likes this:...

And I usually participate in those threads

But, as you say, its never more than generalities like "omgz, I hate it!" vs. "omgz, I love it!" and eventually it dissolves into chaos to the point where the thread just dies off, which is a shame because I think there are things that need to be discussed.

The reason I'm getting into this level of screen specifics and not talking about the STV as a whole is that I hope I can encourage people to discuss the gray areas between dismissive statements like "omgz, I love it!" and "omgz, I hate it!". I know I personally don't hate it! There's *a lot* of stuff I do like about it and I'll get to that when I talk about those screens (ex: Imported Videos). But, there's also a lot of little/big stuff that just drives me *crazy* and I wanted to call those out too.

Its OK to say, "I like the default STV... but this thing here bugs me".

I do regret how I named the thread, its very combative and I didn't mean for it to be. I wrote the title when I first sat down to write the post and didn't think to change it before I posted. I also don't like how it sounded like I was comparing the default STV to those others screens. My intention was to just to show which of my specific complaints were addressed in other packages. I may still edit that section a bit to reflect what I was going for.

P.S - I also call for a ban on the word "Bling" in this thread

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Polypro

I like movies separated from DVDs.

Just curious on this - why? Aren't nearly all DVDs movies anyway?

[doc]

I'm one of those stuck somewhere in between the default STV and SageMC.

I like the TV menu in SageMC but I should save that for the next thread!

What I like about the SageMC main menu is that you can change it. I personally have the options

TV
Videos
Music
Pictures
Play DVD

I've removed the 'My' from everything and left aligned them. If I had a wife I'm sure she'd insist on it saying 'Her' in front.......

The thing I don't like about the setup or 'my menu' item is that as soon as a friend comes round the first thing they do is go 'what I can change in there...'

There has to be a setup option and it would make sense to have it on the main page. Maybe the options button or something like that could bring up the option for the setup.

I also like having the weather on the page. When its not there you don't miss it but I can't count the number of times its made me think about putting another jumper on or leaving the house a few minutes earlier to defrost the car.

Just my rambling thoughts.

EDIT:
Oh yes, I prefer TV recordings seperate from videos. TV recordings tend to be volatile where stuffs always changing, whereas my videos are usually going to hang around for quite a while and will have jpg files associated with them.

[aaronb]

Originally Posted by Brent

Just curious on this - why? Aren't nearly all DVDs movies anyway?

Not to speak for Polypro, but I like to keep mine separate too, for a couple reasons. I like to have a folder of movies that I know I can browse/play from the couch without getting up to get the disc (21st century laziness at its finest). This folder also has stuff I might watch semi-frequently, whereas a lot of the DVDs I'll never watch more than 1-2 times. Also, some movies are of the "watch once and delete" variety, so I like to have them in the more limited folder where they are a little more visible than the DVD folder which contains 500+ movies. To make an analogy, the Movies folder is the 10 CD's you keep in the changer, while the DVD folder is the 100 disc folder you keep under the seat.

/end hijack

[evilpenguin]

Originally Posted by doc

I've removed the 'My' from everything and left aligned them..

Wow, i've been using SageMC for so long, I don't even see those "My's" anymore when I look at it. Yeah, I'll agree, they're a remnant from way back when when SageMC was trying to emulate MCE as close as possible. I think they've moved on far enough that those can go.

My main quibble with STV Main menu is that I don't care for having videos (from DVDs and legal online sources) separated from recorded TV. I would love to have it all in one area so that it's easier to access. Oddly most of my movies are under recorded TV (HD movies have far better PQ than DVD movies) and my TV series are under Videos (ripped from DVDs).

This is a really good topic and rich for discussion, but its also off topic for this thread. I'm gonna talk about that a little bit when I get to the Recorded TV screens.

[wado1971]

Good post - well thought out. I'm also a default user who's tried MC for awhile without success and desperately hope SageTV 7 brings some UI improvements.

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

First of all, the core animations are smooth a silk and look great.

I agree the animations are good on the main menu but I've always thought they were forgotten when navigating into SageTV Recordings, Program Guide, Music, etc. Navigation into these menus just plops you in and kind of looses the nice transition touch. More consistency is required.

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

... 98% text. ....Also, why is entire right side of the screen completely empty.

Entirely agree on both points. I've modified the default stv numerous times to fill in these areas with useful info. Big improvements can be made here. Attached is my current creation. Note: I use the weather info panel to fill in the 'unused' prevue pane space when nothing is playing.

I think "white space" can not be forgotten in this area. Worse than too much empty space is clutter.

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

Live TV - I've never clicked that button once in my entire 5 years of being a user

- right on!
But no matter what happens on this front, you'll need to pry nielms dymanic menus from my cold dead hands.

[wayner]

Sorry to come in late but I think you sold short the XP MCE Main Menu. It dynamically adds different items depending on what element you are on - in the image I have posted shows what happens when you have scrolled down to My TV - it gives you different functionality that you can directly go to by moving over to the icons that are to the right of My TV. The icon of the remote lets you go directly to RecordedTV, the TV icon takes you to LiveTV and the movie reel icon takes you to Movies. You also get a now playing window in the bottom left corner. This is much more functionality than the stock Sage UI. It's also a cleaner look in my opinion.



But to get back to the main topic - I too am somewhat between the stock UI and SageMC. But there are some things that totally bug me - the Recording Detail screen has too much on the screen at once with now differentiation between titles (like Starring) and the actual data. (See below). This screen is too ambitious and tries to put too much on the screen at once.

The other thing annoying about the stock UI is that it brings up too many menus by default - when you click on a TV show name it makes you click again to Browse Recordings - I turn this off ASAP.

[elaw]

EP: As some others have said, good post and good thread!

Okay first things first: I'd be willing to sign a petition banning the use of the word "My" in media center UIs forever! Every time I see "My TV" I think "well what else am I gonna do, watch someone else's TV?"

Another thing I'll throw out is I think it makes sense to separate functional aspects of the UI (this would mostly include verbiage) from visual aspects. Obviously there's some overlap, but I think the two categories address fundamentally different aspects of the UI.

On the functional/verbiage side, I agree with a lot of what EP had to say. "Live TV" to me is useless, IMHO it should be labeled "I want to watch something on TV but I don't care what" which at least for me is never the case.

I also agree "media center" is confusing. My wife is a smart computer-literate person who, unlike me, has not spent 100's of hours screwing around with Sage. And I wish I had a nickel for every time she's asked me "How do I get to movies?" IMHO things would be much better if the 2nd item on the menu was "Movies & videos" and the 3rd item was "Music".

On the visual side (what we all don't want to call "bling" ), I'm on the fence. I'm pretty jaded when it comes to computer stuff and I think for the most part I can see through eye candy and form my opinions based on how a product actually works. However I must confess, when reading the 1st post in this thread, I was really captured by the XBMC screenshot.

I think even with experienced computer users there's a tendency when presented with something visually appealing to think that if a vendor put that much effort into the visuals, they maybe put equal effort into functionality. Or in other words, "if it looks good it must work good". Obviously not necessarily true, but I think to a certain extent it's human nature to be influenced that way.

The other important area, and where I think the above effect becomes more important, is when other people are brought into the equation. Certainly some Sage customers are going to be sole users. But others have wives/husbands/parents/roommates/children/rich uncles/??? who also use their Sage system and whose opinions of Sage are important (especially if they have influence over spending ). I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that most of these other users are not as experienced with computers as the "system owner", not as experienced with Sage, or most likely both. And IMHO people who fall into those categories are more likely to be influenced by appearance, if only in the sense of making a good "first impression". I know that's been very true in my case, my wife never showed much interest in Sage when I used the stock UI, but she's shown a lot more since I switched to SageMC!

[evilpenguin]

Originally Posted by wayner

It dynamically adds different items depending on what element you are on - in the image I have posted shows what happens when you have scrolled down to My TV - it gives you different functionality that you can directly go to by moving over to the icons that are to the right of My TV.

See, I thought it was supposed do that but it wasn't working on my PC. I got the boxes to the side but none of the descriptive icons showed up. Weird.

Originally Posted by wayner

But there are some things that totally bug me - the Recording Detail screen has too much on the screen at once with now differentiation between titles (like Starring) and the actual data. (See below). This screen is too ambitious and tries to put too much on the screen at once.

The other thing annoying about the stock UI is that it brings up too many menus by default - when you click on a TV show name it makes you click again to Browse Recordings - I turn this off ASAP.

Good points, off topic. Save it for next time! Sorry to be a jerk but I'm trying to keep the discussion *very* focused to keep it from spiraling out of control.

Originally Posted by elaw

I know that's been very true in my case, my wife never showed much interest in Sage when I used the stock UI, but she's shown a lot more since I switched to SageMC!

I think it has a lot to do with initial accessibility. I work for a big company now and the design guys are always talking about "The first 5", referring to retail studies that have shown that if the average person is at all confused in their first 5 minutes with a product they have a tendency to completely write it off vs. if they make it past "the first 5" they're more likely to accept confusion and explore to resolve it. Since the Main Menu definitely falls within "the first 5" its a relevant concern.

[Olias]

Great topic! I've been involved in the PC industry since the 80's and have to agree with most/all of your points. Since I come from a hardware/technical point of view, I've never really thought about what I didn't like with the stock UI, I only knew that it felt dated.

All it took was your two screenshots of the Sage main menu and the one made in text and, WHAM! the little lightbulb above my head popped on. It reminded me of an ERP package that I installed in the 90's at a manufacturing company that I work for.

The original version was a text only, green screen application. The ERP vendor made a big deal about their "new and improved" gui version. But all this "new and improved" version really did was screen scrape the text screens and enclose it in a window. You couldn't even resize the windows, they were stuck in a fixed size.

Several years later, the vendor finally started to completely rewrite the screens to act and behave as a real windows application.

I hope that somewhere down the line the SageTV devs will realize that "sizzle" does sell, and will update the gui.

When introducing SageTV to the wife, I also found out that switching to SageMC increased the WAF significantly.

[KarylFStein]

I'd really like to see the dynamic menus made part of the stock UI. And a weather icon with current conditions right on the front page like SageMC (or HD200 I think). Those are my biggest complaints for the main screen.

When I turn on the TV, I want to see how much disk space is being / will be used, the current weather, and a menu that matches what I do most so it's just one click away and stuff I never do is gone. Since everyone will have different ideas of what options should be on the main menu, why not make it customizable right out of the box?

The graphics are dated, but first I'd like the menu customization things officially supported and available as soon as a new release comes out.