Why I don't like the default STV Part #1: The Main Menu

[evilpenguin]

Originally Posted by S_M_E

I don't see a menu item for pictures on EP's nor GKusnick's screen shots...

I removed it because I don't have any pictures on my PC (they're all online). I also don't have any music on my PC (I use online radio), but if I removed that my main menu would look a bit empty

[S_M_E]

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

I removed it because I don't have any pictures on my PC (they're all online). I also don't have any music on my PC (I use online radio), but if I removed that my main menu would look a bit empty

I assume that "pictures" could be added to nblue and GKusnick's's ui then. I like both of those much better than the various "blingy" versions but I still like the stock just as much too. Maybe, according to some people, I should care about an extra click of the mouse/remote but I don't. I'm just not impressed by icons and such either. No offense, but I like the stock UI background more than the gears too.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by S_M_E

I don't see a menu item for pictures on EP's nor GKusnick's screen shots...

I keep a photo archive on my media server but I don't use Sage to view them. Photo slideshows just aren't my thing.

My Music category includes a shortcut to the stock UI's music browser, so I can navigate from there to the stock Picture viewer if I really need to (but I hardly ever need to). In general my approach has been to redesign just the functions I use frequently, and fall back to the stock UI for everything else.

Edit: If/when I get around to packaging this for release, I'll obviously try to include some sort of Main Menu configurability, so you're not stuck with just the items I think are important.

[S_M_E]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

I keep a photo archive on my media server but I don't use Sage to view them. Photo slideshows just aren't my thing.

My Music category includes a shortcut to the stock UI's music browser, so I can navigate from there to the stock Picture viewer if I really need to (but I hardly ever need to). In general my approach has been to redesign just the functions I use frequently, and fall back to the stock UI for everything else.

Edit: If/when I get around to packaging this for release, I'll obviously try to include some sort of Main Menu configurability, so you're not stuck with just the items I think are important.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with people removing what they don't use or even moving what they use most to the main menu and while I don't use the photo slide show often, it is configured and ready if needed. Since WHS and Sage both have photo shares and import dirs it only made sense to set it up.

[sainswor99]

So , are wever going to move past the main screen? I have tons of little things that bug me on the secondary screens (and tons of things I like).

[evilpenguin]

I'm currently watching football, putting the finishing touches on a sweet new tool (), and going over the "Sage Recordings" menu so I hope to have that topic up for discussion by tomorrow. See you all there!

[gveres]

Back to the original point of the thread - here are my thoughts on the main menu.

Looks matter and the default STV doesn't look good. It is very sparse in the main menu and way too over crowded in the rest of it.

But I think one of the earlier posters hit the nail on the head. The main menu of the Default STV has too many TV functions on it. If Sage is to be a multi media center, then it should start by allowing you to chose what type of media you are interested in today. I can't wait until we get to the rest of the UI. The biggest problem for my wife and me is the lack of organization in Sage as a core feature. It comes out in the main menu and the rest of the UI. It is probably just the pre-conceived notions that the two of us brought to the table from having used BTV for years, but there is no organization in Sage. But that's all I will say right now, I will bring it up again when we move to the rest of the app. I bring it up now because if you look at the Sage Main menu vs the other apps, it becomes apparent that there are too many TV items.

GKusnick did a good job of organizing his menus like the rest of the competition. SageMC does the same.

Personally, I don't like the sub menus being on the screen at the same time in GKusnick's UI. I like how Mike did it in SageMC. You can highlight an item and press the left arrow and the menu shows up. I obviously haven't used GKusnick's but I suspect it takes exactly the same number of remote button clicks to use his menus as it does to use the simiarly configured SageMC menus. But not having the submenus on the screen at the same time allows you to use the space for other stuff, which leads me to my next point ....

We need to look at the purpose of the main menu. What is the user trying accomplish on this first screen? Well, as a user, I can tell you what I am trying to accomplish:

1) I am trying to navigate to the content I want to enjoy.
2) I am trying to get a snapshot of "life". In the SageMC case I love what Mike has put on the main screen. I am interested in the health of the system. In my case this is primarily disk space, upcoming conflicts and I wish I had a status for my networked recorder because some times it crashes. I am also interested in the weather in my area. I have been completely surprised by how often I look at it - maybe because it is the dead of winter here and I want to know if I should venture out side or not (I don't like -20 degrees C )

2b)I just recently found the upcoming and recent recording items that can be put there. I am not sure yet if I deem them worthy enough to have on the main screen since they are readily available once I determine that I am interested in enjoying recorded TV.

To me that's it. That's what the main menu should do. It should do all of this while looking good and being easy to use.

Personally, I really like SageMC for this regard. And to top it off, SageMC is completely customizable on this screen. I just wish I could customize the next level down as easily as I can customize this level.

Greg

[gveres]

I should also mention that I really hate the main menu screens that "hide" some of the menu options in the big long scrolling list. The menu items should be on screen all the time and visible. The faded menu of MCE is just plain wrong. It might look nice but it suffers in usability and I just can't agree with that trade off.

The main menu should have a small enough number of choices that you can keep in on the screen. I understand that they might be trying to mimic the MacOS dock, but the dock magnifying works well because the entire list of icons is visible on the screen and when you pick one, it gets bigger without obscuring any of the others. I don't mind the way the mac doc works (the selected one getting bigger) but you can't hide the other choices while doing it. An example of a UI that does hide the adjacent items while making the current one more pronounced is Quicken. When you look at the register of an account, the highlighting of the selected line hides the contents of the next line. This kills usability if you need to see what is next and in adjacent lists the next item in the list is likely relavent.

The reason I just remembered about this is because somebody mentioned the CenterStage theme for SageMC so I went looking for it. Apparently it is dead but it referenced something called Plex. http://www.plexapp.com/ check its main screen. It does exactly what I am saying is bad to do. It doesn't fit the entire main menu on the screen and it highlights the selected item in a way that makes the other menu items much more difficult to read.
http://www.plexapp.com/images/imgHom...tream-w900.jpg

Greg

[stanger89]

The thing is, "bling" is not bad, nor is it good. The problem is that bling is often used (intentionally or not) as a substitute for good function. I find many HTPC "frontends" suffer from this. Personally MediaPortal, or at least some of it's skins are a good example (which will probably raise some comments ). XBMC's Aeon skin/interface is another example.

On the other end of the spectrum there are apps that completely ignore aestetics and work fine. Sage probably falls closest to this.

But the absolute best apps are the ones that find that "perfect blend" of form and function. While pleasing aestetics aren't a necessity, they certainly can improve the uer experience. There aren't really all that many apps that really do this, but I think that's the overall hope of this thread for Sage.

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by gveres

1) I am trying to navigate to the content I want to enjoy.
2) I am trying to get a snapshot of "life". In the SageMC case I love what Mike has put on the main screen. I am interested in the health of the system. In my case this is primarily disk space, upcoming conflicts and I wish I had a status for my networked recorder because some times it crashes. I am also interested in the weather in my area. I have been completely surprised by how often I look at it - maybe because it is the dead of winter here and I want to know if I should venture out side or not (I don't like -20 degrees C )

2b)I just recently found the upcoming and recent recording items that can be put there. I am not sure yet if I deem them worthy enough to have on the main screen since they are readily available once I determine that I am interested in enjoying recorded TV.

Greg

Greg,

Nice input on what your definition of the purpose of main screen is for; I've wondered in the past if I could design and implement anything I wanted on the front page of my PVR MediaCenter, what would it be? For me it comes down to three basic choices:

1. I want to Watch something. It may be TV, it may be a DVD, or it may be something online. I may have something specific in mind, or I may want to see what my options are (latest recordings, something coming on LiveTV in a few minutes, a new feed from one of my favorites). It could also be a picture slideshow (with or without a musical playlist).

2. I want to Listen to something. This is a MediaCenter, not just a TV app, right? I'd like to have an opportunity to Play all of my songs, listen to a CD, or stream Internet Radio or Podcasts. I may want to use the stock ImageArt, or I may want to watch a picture slideshow of my own choosing, but I started out by wanting to Listen to something.

3. I need to adjust some Settings; I may need to tweak something like storage allocation, or I may need to do something simple like manage my TV favorites.

The main point is that a main screen should be designed to help guide me to what I want to do as quickly as possible. I like the concept of "the snapshot of life", but to me, that's an optional widget that is less important to me. I also like having visual cues (like the movie theatre or the SageMC guy with headphones) that help reinforce the text; it helps my non-native-English-speaking friends understand the choices quickly.

I also think that if the main menu is simple enough, you could program the application to skip it as an option; have a "start at last used activity" setting (which would drive my wife nuts and probably prompt more support calls to me). For example, if you last watched a DVD, then the next time the system came on, it could start at the Watch activities screen (and probably the DVD subscreen). This assumes, of course, that you have an easy way to get back to the Main Menu.

[ThePaladinTech]

OK - On topic... The opinions expressed in this post are my own, yours may vary...

Where is Tivo in this discussion? Tivo's interface is pretty much the ruler by which others are judged. I am not saying that there is nothing better, I *AM* saying it is the standard, and should be scrutinized and learned from.

Here is a link to an old Tivo main screen: http://www.talkinghometheaters.com/w...vo-screen1.jpg

Item 1: the sage default ui is mostly text - So is Tivo's, it's not a detriment. would some graphics help? perhaps. are some of the screen shots posted in this thread WONDERFUL looking - both in a functionality as well as aesthetics way - certainly (more on that later)

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

* SageTV Recordings - Sure, why not? I'd just call it Recorded TV, but whatever.

The words "main menu" - yeah it's kinda lame. nothing really 'wrong' though' - in Tivo's case they Call it 'Tivo Central' and change the background color to green. I *think* the only green background is 'tivo central'

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

* Live TV - I've never clicked that button once in my entire 5 years of being a user, so why it would rank as #2 on the most prominent list in the entire application is a mystery to me. Its not really even the recommended way to jump into watching LiveTV in a PVR, I'm fairly sure most people do it by going into the program guide and picking their starting own point. When you press this button it seems to bring me to a random show I'm currently recording recording. The only reason I could see to use this would be for channel surfing so I'd have expected it to grab one of my free tuners and start me at Channel 2. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this menu item is redundant and should go. And I don't want to hear any whining like "What if someone uses this all the time?" The default UI forces users to adapt to its layout and functionality in almost every screen so why make a concession here?

And this one brings me to my main reason for posting here. First, as for me - I couldn't agree more *I* never use that menu choice. But we notice it is item #2 on Tivo as well. And a thing I think we all need to remember is that in most homes the TV is used by many people, Guests even. And I will tell you my 'live TV' option *is* used, by guests who have never had a PVR, Tivo, or SageTV. They don't get the concept, there world *IS* flipping channels to find 'something good on' (sad really ) but for them I think that item needs to be there, and for them ludites, I think it needs to be right up front.

OK - other ramblings from perusing the entire thread.

I like the media center videos to be separate from the sage recordings ... stuff I keep winds up in 'videos' be it a ripped DVD, a movie, or a tv show.

Someone commented that the text is too big on their big screen TV. Hate to sound like a pauper but I watch sage on a 27" STD TV and probably will for at least another year- I WISH there were a way to make all the text BIGGER. and don't really see why there isn't a way to have the font size settable by the user - that would make everyone happy. and if there isn't then the text size of the default UI should either be 1. optimized for the most common size TV people have or 2. set at a size that is perfect for whatever is the 'middle of the road' today. And not optimized for the huge sets some have the good fortune to own- I would think the default UI should be something that makes SageTV more appealing to the masses. to quote spock the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one

I REALLY think GKusnick's menu here http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...8&postcount=24 should be a strong contender for an improvement to the default UI. Again I'm striving for what would make sage sell the best, not necessarily what would look the best with the fastest computer and biggest screen money can buy.

Options / setup menu - Yeah could we hide that or password protect it? perhaps you could have some obscure remote key combination call it up??? I don't like need my guests reconfiguring my entire system just seeing what they can change either

I'll not rehash every thing I've seen that I agree or disagree with - there's a lot of good stuff in here. I currently use the standard interface, and think it could / should be better. Not cuz I dislike it, but because I totally agree with the first impression thing, and that sage would sell better with a better standard UI. Even *IF* sageMC where built in there would have to be a standard UI that were turned on by default. And I think that's what the topic is about.

[gveres]

Originally Posted by enzominator

And this one brings me to my main reason for posting here. First, as for me - I couldn't agree more *I* never use that menu choice. But we notice it is item #2 on Tivo as well. And a thing I think we all need to remember is that in most homes the TV is used by many people, Guests even. And I will tell you my 'live TV' option *is* used, by guests who have never had a PVR, Tivo, or SageTV. They don't get the concept, there world *IS* flipping channels to find 'something good on' (sad really ) but for them I think that item needs to be there, and for them ludites, I think it needs to be right up front.

I agree and disagree. I never watch liveTV because I hate to watch commercials. But there are two times in my household when liveTV is used:

1) when the babysitter comes over
2) when my mother and her husband come over

I don't know how the babysitter uses the TV (but I did get a "coooool" when I showed the newest sitter how to use the system )

I do know that my mother and her husband use the guide. Changing channels on a PVR system is so slow compared to anything else that I don't think it is feasible to really watch liveTV. Maybe that is a biased view of an R5000 satelite owner, but on my system it takes 15 seconds to start liveTV and
10 to 20 seconds to change channels. Channel surfing is just not an option. This was the same when I was using BTV and a PVR250 with satelite.

I guess where I am going is that with a PVR system you want to guide people to surf the guide and then choose what to watch. I would be in favour of TV Guide being on the main menu but not liveTV.

As for why Tivo has LiveTV on the main menu, I suspect they have over come the channel lag more than software based PVRs and the box is dedicated to watching tv, its not a media center.

Greg

[HelenWeathers]

I just finished setting up a main menu item called "What's On TV Now?" which takes the user to the program guide to select something to watch. I've eleminated the Live TV and Program Guide selections from my Main Menu and users at my house seem to get it right away.

[evilpenguin]

Originally Posted by HelenWeathers

I just finished setting up a main menu item called "What's On TV Now?" which takes the user to the program guide to select something to watch. I've eleminated the Live TV and Program Guide selections from my Main Menu and users at my house seem to get it right away.

I think that's a pretty good solution

Perhaps, even have that link be a hybrid of the two and have the "What's On TV Now?" button go to the program guide AND start recording/playing the first channel in the preview window. Not only would it do what they expected so they're not confused, but also encourage them to start playing with and learning the program guide.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by enzominator

Where is Tivo in this discussion? Tivo's interface is pretty much the ruler by which others are judged.

Tivo is the standard for entry-level DVR boxes meant to replace VCRs. That's a pretty low bar for UI excellence in my opinion. It is definitely not the standard for networked client/server media managers.

I have a Tivo in addition to Sage, and I have to say the Tivo UI drives me nuts sometimes with its illogical layout, confusing terminology, and grammar-school esthetics.

Live TV is prominently featured in Tivo mainly, I claim, because Tivo boxes don't have enough tuners. Since you can't record everything you might want to watch, you're forced to watch some of it live. So you never get a chance to break the live TV habit.

Sage, in contrast, lets you have as many tuners as you need to record several prime-time programs a day. Once you build up a backlog of recordings, you never need to channel-surf again, so live TV becomes largely irrelevant.

As for babysitters and in-laws, I don't really have that problem in my house, but in any case the Tivo is adequate for my occasional guests, so I'm free to configure Sage to suit my viewing habits, not theirs.

[mickp]

Originally Posted by gveres

I agree and disagree. I never watch liveTV because I hate to watch commercials. But there are two times in my household when liveTV is used:

1) when the babysitter comes over
2) when my mother and her husband come over

I don't know how the babysitter uses the TV (but I did get a "coooool" when I showed the newest sitter how to use the system )

I do know that my mother and her husband use the guide. Changing channels on a PVR system is so slow compared to anything else that I don't think it is feasible to really watch liveTV. Maybe that is a biased view of an R5000 satelite owner, but on my system it takes 15 seconds to start liveTV and
10 to 20 seconds to change channels. Channel surfing is just not an option. This was the same when I was using BTV and a PVR250 with satelite.

I guess where I am going is that with a PVR system you want to guide people to surf the guide and then choose what to watch. I would be in favour of TV Guide being on the main menu but not liveTV.

As for why Tivo has LiveTV on the main menu, I suspect they have over come the channel lag more than software based PVRs and the box is dedicated to watching tv, its not a media center.

Greg

I totally understand why the live tv guide is there in the main menu of the default stv though I'm fine with it as the first item in the tv submenu of SageMC.

I think you're correct about the R5000 taint as I've just checked my chanel change latency and (counting one, one thousand, two, two thousand...) it's about four seconds for HD DVB via my Hauppauge Nova T 500's.

One thing that makes a huge difference in the perceived latency is not having a miniguide in the default stv. In SageMC with the miniguide present you tend to scroll through the channels until you find something that looks like it might be worth switching to. I don't have cable but from what I've seen of the local (Australian) cable boxes this seems pretty standard behavior.

I never watch live tv but have also had friends and family around who have used the feature when visiting and they've not commented on it being particularly laggy or seemed to have a problem with it.

Mick.

[sainswor99]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

Tivo is the standard for entry-level DVR boxes meant to replace VCRs. That's a pretty low bar for UI excellence in my opinion. It is definitely not the standard for networked client/server media managers.

Embedded in that sentence is the core of the "identity problem" for Sage; is it a TV-centric PVR, or is it a media center? I think many of us who came from beyondTV were allured by Sage's integration of other media (at the time, music, photo, and imported videos) and the extenders. To be honest, though, the integration has always looked like an afterthought, and I think that some us would rather see a more fully-developed integration where TV is just one of the options presented. That affects not only what we want to see in a UI as well as what features we'd like to see added to the core app (party mode for music, better handling of playlists and slideshows, etc).

Of course, if you see Sage as mostly a PVR that can sometimes play music, your emphasis will be different.

[wado1971]

For me it’s less of a “what items should be on the main menu” question but more of the look & feel xbmc gives over sagetv. It’s not what’s on the screen but how your eye moves around it. So, I installed xbmc and stared at it for awhile – here’s my thoughts FWIW. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:XBMC_Home_Screen.jpg ...link to xbmc default screen - seems to have been removed from OP)

What I like about xbmc’s main menu (default) – in comparison to sagetv (default):

1) The entire main menu has multiple sections that mesh very well together without looking cluttered. Compared that to a single solid background color with no distiction.

2) The heading bar (gray bar on top) is clearly layed out & nicely shadowed. Compared to sagetv’s heading bar…… oops, sagetv has no distinction. Also, the “xbmc media center” title pops out very well.

3) The menu navigation is well defined within it’s own gray box which stands out from the screen (shadowed) and is clearly distinguished as the navigation center. My grandmother would know where to focus her eyes & what to do with the remote.

4) The photos are pleasing. I’ve always thought that icons where the way to visually notify a selection choice but xbmc shows us a nice alternative to signal different selection choices and take up all that screen space at the same time (one BIG clear icon). The enourmous background space in sagetv has always bothered me and when I fill it with various functional items (weather, preview, etc) they simply look plopped onto a white board & cluttered. And OMG… that turns into the preview pane – looks fantastic.

5) The additional gray bar on bottom (info center) mirrors the top bar for a nice consistency. The two bars combined narrow at the left side and open the screen up on the right. It simply invites you to navigate.

6) The animation when moving into submenus and back to the main isn’t a simple screen translation in one motion but splits the screen into two panes: the menu box slips out left while the picture slides out to the right. It gives a sense of each menu being ‘built’.

[Opus4]

I was asked to remove a side argument that people found distracting and pointless, so I did. Please don't drag it back into the topic again. And, if you don't want to get into the same arguments with someone, the forum has a feature to ignore a user's posts: you shold be able to go to the user's profile, use the User Lists drop-down menu, then select Add to Ignore List.

I also edited a couple posts to change the inline pictures to links because they were too wide & can cause the browser to need to be scrolled left/right to read the text. Please keep inline pictures sized to 800 pixels or less in width.

Thanks in advance for the cooperation.

- Andy

[evilpenguin]

Originally Posted by sainswor99

Embedded in that sentence is the core of the "identity problem" for Sage; is it a TV-centric PVR, or is it a media center? I think many of us who came from beyondTV were allured by Sage's integration of other media (at the time, music, photo, and imported videos) and the extenders.

I wonder if that would be a good setup wizard question: "What types are media will you primarily be using Sage for?" Then customize the main menu based on their answer.

Originally Posted by wado1971

...link to xbmc default screen - seems to have been removed from OP)

Originally Posted by Opus4

Please keep inline pictures sized to 800 pixels or less in width.

My bad, I fixed the image in my original post so you can inline link to it again.