Best way to ease into SageTV

[kjgarrison]

Hello everybody.

As the title says, what is the best way to see if SageTV works for me?

My setup, if you can call it that:

DirecTV, Single Wire Multiswitch (SWM), 2 DVRs (each capable of recording two programs simultaneously, thanks to the SWM.)

Wireless-G network, but can easily upgrade to ethernet and/or N.

Main computer is new fast cpu and XP SP3

PS3

Denon AVR with surround speakers and HDTV at the "main" family viewing location (where the PS3 and the Denon AVR are also.)

Second HDTV in basement guest room area has the second DirecTV DVR. There will be a third viewing location in the future in another bedroom. Right now I would like to get recorded programs from the second DVR in the basement to the main viewing location on the main floor.

I also have AppleTV


I'm thinking that the first 'step' might be something to get the recorded programs on the second (basement) HD DVR to the main floor, preferably with digital audio. Would that be the Hauppauge 200? Anything else?

[PeteCress]

Originally Posted by kjgarrison

Main computer is new fast cpu and XP SP3

I'm thinking that the first 'step' might be something to get the recorded programs on the second (basement) HD DVR to the main floor, preferably with digital audio. Would that be the Hauppauge 200? Anything else?

This from a total noob. Maybe three months max with SageTV.

If I were in your situation, I'd install the free trial version of SageTV on that computer, along with at least one tuner card that can tune whatever you get your TV from.

Then I'd pony up $200 for what Sage calls an "HD200 Media Extender" - which comes complete with it's own remote. All you need is Ethernet between the extender and your PC.

FWIW, there are workable wireless alternatives to pulling that Ethernet cable, but the cable is cheaper.

[shadeblue.com]

Originally Posted by kjgarrison

Hello everybody.

As the title says, what is the best way to see if SageTV works for me?

My setup, if you can call it that:

DirecTV, Single Wire Multiswitch (SWM), 2 DVRs (each capable of recording two programs simultaneously, thanks to the SWM.)

Wireless-G network, but can easily upgrade to ethernet and/or N.

Main computer is new fast cpu and XP SP3

PS3

Denon AVR with surround speakers and HDTV at the "main" family viewing location (where the PS3 and the Denon AVR are also.)

Second HDTV in basement guest room area has the second DirecTV DVR. There will be a third viewing location in the future in another bedroom. Right now I would like to get recorded programs from the second DVR in the basement to the main viewing location on the main floor.

I also have AppleTV


I'm thinking that the first 'step' might be something to get the recorded programs on the second (basement) HD DVR to the main floor, preferably with digital audio. Would that be the Hauppauge 200? Anything else?

Hi Pete,

This link may help illustrate some of your options.
http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/down...do=file&id=278

If you want to record HD quality content from DirecTV using SageTV, then you will need the Hauppauge HD-PVR (model #1212).

To have dual recording capability (both DirecTV), you would need 2 Hauppauge HD-PVR units. You could then downgrade your DirecTV units to non-PVRs if you are paying extra fees for them. Or if you find that you record a lot of network TV, you can get a ATSC over the air tuner to record free digital broadcasts. You can mix and match different types of tuners with SageTV. In my setup, I have 2 HD-PVRs to record from Uverse set top boxes, a HD Homerun to record 2 OTA ATSC signals, and a Hauppauge WinTV-1600 that has an extra OTA ATSC tuner and a SVIDEO capture input for my backup satellite signal.

I can record all of the following simultaneously:

Examples
1. HD-PVR: AT&T Uverse - History Channel HD
2. HD-PVR: AT&T Uverse - Discovery HD Theater
3. HD Homerun: ATSC (OTA) - ABC
4. HD Homerun: ATSC (OTA) - NBC
5. WinTV-1600: ATSC (OTA) - CBS
6. WinTV-1600: SVideo: aux satellite receiver - NASA

All but #6 can be recorded in HD quality.

The SageTV HD-200 device is a small extender device that you can use at each location you want to watch TV without having to build a HTPC for each viewing station.

[Skirge01]

I think PeteCress is on the right track. That would probably be the cheapest and easiest method for finding out if Sage will work for you. The truth is, it will. It's just a question of how complex you want to make your entire setup and how many tweaks you decide to do. Initially, stick with the standard UI and see how that works for you.

Personally, I wanted a computer in the TV room, so I built a PC right off the bat and had the server running on my main computer upstairs. Then, I built a real server a couple years later.

My suggestion would be to get familiar with Sage, import your music, videos, etc., and try that out. Also, try exclusively using Sage for a couple of TV series you watch (Netflix them, rip DVD's, whatever) and see what you think about that. I began watching Stargate SG1 using Sage and I enjoyed watching it that way so much, that I decided I wanted ALL my TV watching to be like that. I was hooked.

Do keep in mind that depending on how many TV's will be fed, how much media you'll be storing, and how many concurrent shows you need to be able to record (among other things), this has the possibility to get expensive. In the end, though, it's definitely worth it!

[kjgarrison]

Originally Posted by PeteCress

This from a total noob. Maybe three months max with SageTV.

If I were in your situation, I'd install the free trial version of SageTV on that computer, along with at least one tuner card that can tune whatever you get your TV from.

Then I'd pony up $200 for what Sage calls an "HD200 Media Extender" - which comes complete with it's own remote. All you need is Ethernet between the extender and your PC.

FWIW, there are workable wireless alternatives to pulling that Ethernet cable, but the cable is cheaper.

Thank you for the reply. Ethernet will be easy to do for me to do, and I think I understand everything you are saying to do except for what I have bolded above.

I do not have OTA available (I live out in the country.) My only source of TV is DirecTV, so I'm thinking I can't do what you are suggesting with a tuner card. Perhaps I'm not understand what different tuner cards are capable of.

[kjgarrison]

Originally Posted by shadeblue.com

Hi Pete,

This link may help illustrate some of your options.
http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/down...do=file&id=278

If you want to record HD quality content from DirecTV using SageTV, then you will need the Hauppauge HD-PVR (model #1212).

To have dual recording capability (both DirecTV), you would need 2 Hauppauge HD-PVR units. You could then downgrade your DirecTV units to non-PVRs if you are paying extra fees for them. Or if you find that you record a lot of network TV, you can get a ATSC over the air tuner to record free digital broadcasts. You can mix and match different types of tuners with SageTV. In my setup, I have 2 HD-PVRs to record from Uverse set top boxes, a HD Homerun to record 2 OTA ATSC signals, and a Hauppauge WinTV-1600 that has an extra OTA ATSC tuner and a SVIDEO capture input for my backup satellite signal.

I can record all of the following simultaneously:

Examples
1. HD-PVR: AT&T Uverse - History Channel HD
2. HD-PVR: AT&T Uverse - Discovery HD Theater
3. HD Homerun: ATSC (OTA) - ABC
4. HD Homerun: ATSC (OTA) - NBC
5. WinTV-1600: ATSC (OTA) - CBS
6. WinTV-1600: SVideo: aux satellite receiver - NASA

All but #6 can be recorded in HD quality.

The SageTV HD-200 device is a small extender device that you can use at each location you want to watch TV without having to build a HTPC for each viewing station.

Thank you as well for your reply as well as the link to the diagram. It is very helpful.

Perhaps you have seen my previous reply; OTA is not available to me (at least I don't think it is. I do have an old antenna up on the roof. Maybe I should actually test it. But based on advertised distances, I'm not expecting anything. My house is down in a bit of a gully, and it is >100miles from the transmitters.)

So, if I get the math right, I need one of the Hauppauge 1212 boxes (@~$225) for each channel of HDTV off DirecTV that I want to record. Consequently I need 4 of them to match the recording capability I currently have. Plus I need 2 more DirecTV boxes, since only one channel per DirecTV box can be recorded. I don't need the two DVRs I currently have, so there may be a reduction in fees from downgrading from DVRs to plain tuners.

So, that is ~$900 just in HD-PVR boxes alone.

This amount of money, coupled with the additonal boxes (HD-200s) and subsequent HTPC costs pushes the overall cost up hundreds of more dollars.

For this much money I can get a good quality Matrix switch and the other stuff that goes with it. Here is my key question: What is the advantage (or are the advantages) of using SageTV to distribute HDTV over using a matrix switch? It doesn't at first glance appear to be cost.

I'm wondering if SageTV (the HTPC) can stream content on demand, even if it is the same content. How many concurrent streams can be sent out from one server? If SageTV can do more than one (of the same program at different points in the program), that is big, IMO.

[kjgarrison]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

I think PeteCress is on the right track. That would probably be the cheapest and easiest method for finding out if Sage will work for you. The truth is, it will. It's just a question of how complex you want to make your entire setup and how many tweaks you decide to do. Initially, stick with the standard UI and see how that works for you.

Personally, I wanted a computer in the TV room, so I built a PC right off the bat and had the server running on my main computer upstairs. Then, I built a real server a couple years later.

My suggestion would be to get familiar with Sage, import your music, videos, etc., and try that out. Also, try exclusively using Sage for a couple of TV series you watch (Netflix them, rip DVD's, whatever) and see what you think about that. I began watching Stargate SG1 using Sage and I enjoyed watching it that way so much, that I decided I wanted ALL my TV watching to be like that. I was hooked.

Do keep in mind that depending on how many TV's will be fed, how much media you'll be storing, and how many concurrent shows you need to be able to record (among other things), this has the possibility to get expensive. In the end, though, it's definitely worth it!

Thanks for the reply. It is just precisely what you are saying about it potentially getting expensive that makes me start to think about the comparison to other methods of HDTV/music/etc distribution at the same price point.

I'm hoping for some killer reason why it is worth as much or more to go with SageTV.

[Slipshod]

Originally Posted by kjgarrison

For this much money I can get a good quality Matrix switch and the other stuff that goes with it. Here is my key question: What is the advantage (or are the advantages) of using SageTV to distribute HDTV over using a matrix switch? It doesn't at first glance appear to be cost.

It's not cost. Monthly STB lease beats it for cost every time.

I'm wondering if SageTV (the HTPC) can stream content on demand, even if it is the same content. How many concurrent streams can be sent out from one server? If SageTV can do more than one (of the same program at different points in the program), that is big, IMO.

Yeah, you're starting to get it now. Think of it as your own personal "On Demand" streaming service. You have to feed it content (TV, DVD, Music, Photo etc...), but once that content is on the server you can watch anything you want, on any TV you want. If you want to watch the same TV show on two TVs, but at different points in time (i.e. one started 10 minutes earlier, or the other paused at some point) that's no problem. The only "gotcha" is that the last one to hit stop is where the bookmark is set.

Here's why I spent entirely too much money on Sage vs. Dish Network VIP 622, in no particular order:
1. DVD Jukebox that plays DVDs with full Menus, over the extenders, and resume stored for each disk. Blu-Ray playback is gravy. Instant access, no scratches.
2. MP3 Jukebox
3. Commercial marking and skipping (hate watching normal DVRs now, completely refuse to watch non-DVR TV)
4. Playback any TV show on my Archos 705 (or any other playback device) with no restrictions or DRM of any kind.
5. Easy to use, great looking, customizable UI (SageMC). Fanart support was an unanticipated bonus.
6. Jukebox for playback of raw HDV files from camcorder, as well as HD Home movies created from them.
7. Native Resolution output of media.
8. Remote access to much of the media (via internet, or just on my workstation upstairs using the placeshifter). I wish DVDs worked over placeshifter, and HD needs a little help still.
9. Direct digital recording from satellite w/ R5000, no re-encoding.

Other people have different reasons, and everybody has their own budgets and priorities. Sage is not for everyone, though I wish it was.

[kjgarrison]

Thanks for the info and the ideas .. and some product names.

I read that the R5000 works with DISH but doesn't work with DirecTV which requires the Hauppauge HD PVR and that the R5000 had better PQ.

Tempts me to switch to DISH is that is still true.

[Slipshod]

Originally Posted by kjgarrison

Thanks for the info and the ideas .. and some product names.

I read that the R5000 works with DISH but doesn't work with DirecTV which requires the Hauppauge HD PVR and that the R5000 had better PQ.

Tempts me to switch to DISH is that is still true.

As chips consolidate, the R5000 works with less and less devices. It won't work with MPEG4 on DirectTV (probably ever), and won't work with the newest crop of Dish Network receivers. You have to get a VIP-211 receiver for the R5000, not a VIP-211k for non-DVR, or a VIP-622 (which is a waste since it's a DVR). They sell the 211s pre-modded, but it's a pretty damn expensive proposition. I bought two, and I thought my wife was going to kill me.

HD-PVR is quite a bit cheaper, but seems a little flaky from what I've seen on the forums (not everyone, but enough that it would make me nervous). I've got minimal gripes with the R5000 - every so often a recording goes a little wonky, and I end up having to reencode it to fix it (couple of button pushes on the remote). It doesn't happen often enough to motivate me to track it down.

[kjgarrison]

Slipshod, I really appreciate your help with all this.

Do you know of a good primer and/or reference on all this? Or is it just ferret through the forums and find helpful folks like you?

[Olias]

Originally Posted by kjgarrison

Perhaps you have seen my previous reply; OTA is not available to me (at least I don't think it is. I do have an old antenna up on the roof. Maybe I should actually test it. But based on advertised distances, I'm not expecting anything. My house is down in a bit of a gully, and it is >100miles from the transmitters.)

Consequently I need 4 of them to match the recording capability I currently have.

How many concurrent streams can be sent out from one server? If SageTV can do more than one (of the same program at different points in the program), that is big, IMO.

While having 4 simultaneous recording streams is a nice thing to have, you may find with SageTV that it is overkill. Once I built up a library of recorded favorite shows and movies, I found our family watches live broadcasts less and less. And with comskip enabled, I now prefer to record a show, let comskip run and watch it later. You may find that having two simultaneous recording streams is plenty.

Sage can send several recorded streams at once if you have 1GB ethernet, no problem.

And it's definately worth a try to see if you can pick up anything with an OTA antenna. If there's already an antenna on the roof, at some time it had to be picking up something.

[Skirge01]

The cost factor is the primary reason I suggested starting out basic and using Sage for music, videos, and an entire season of a show (how you do that, is up to you). For me, I found that I greatly preferred the Sage experience to the DirecTV experience.

However, I'll tell you my #1 reason for getting rid of DirecTV's DVR: Digital Restrictions Management (DRM). My family orders the UFC every single month on PPV. One weekend, we couldn't get everybody together on Saturday night and wanted to watch it Sunday. DirecTV's latest policy (as of several months ago) is that you have 24 hours to watch your PPV purchase. Afterward, it will still show up in the list, but you'll get a black screen and no sound. I was able to live with(out) the stuff below, but this was the final straw. I figure it's only a matter of time before the networks start mandating other types of things: no DVRing premieres, no fast forwarding commericals, etc. Look how many times Media Center users got bitten by the--supposedly unused--broadcast flag!

Reason #2 was simply reliability. With a DirecTV box, I'm at the mercy of THEIR hardware. If I'm using their DVR and it dies, I have no way to hold onto the recordings. Sure, they'll send me a new receiver, but it's going to be blank. Families don't like when their shows aren't available because "the DVR died" and "the new one is on it's way". Can my HTPC die or the server? Sure. But, *I* know I used quality parts and can fix it very quickly should something happen.

Reason #3 has been mentioned before: customization. I can pretty much do whatever I want with Sage. I can read the news (RSS feeds), listen to music with full cover art and ID3 tags, family photos/movies/slideshows, store and organize my entire DVD collection, watch YouTube, HD movie trailers, local weather updates, remote (internet) TV watching, and just about anything else I can dream of. I can also make it look just about any way I wish.

Reason #4 is that it's faster. The interface is lightning fast compared to the DirecTV box.

You mentioned $900 in HD-PVRs due to needing 4 tuners. I would venture to say that you probably do not need that many. First off, you'll find that you no longer watch live TV and solely watch what you have recorded. I guarantee that you'll also find you have MORE TV recorded than you can possibly handle! Second, with Sage, it's more intelligent than the DirecTV box and will search out conflict resolutions. Because of this, if 3 shows are on at the same time and you only have 2 HD-PVRs, it will search out the 3rd show at a later time or day. Will you get to see it the very moment it's on? Perhaps not, but don't forget the first thing I mentioned: you won't want to watch live TV anymore.

You also mentioned multiple streams. If you're using a client/server setup (based on your needs, I believe you'll need to go that route), you can basically stream as much as your server and network can handle. If your disk subsystem has enough bandwidth to stream multiple shows, you're good. Honestly, I don't think you'll have an issue here. I currently have 5 tuners and can be recording on every one, while still watching a previously recorded show. That's SIX high def (3 OTA and 2 HD-PVR) programs being recorded or watched simultaneously and I know others have even more tuners on this forum. I'm also using a gigabit network at home.

Like I said, start small with a single television series and watch it exclusively on Sage. The TV/video watching is where you'll find you really love Sage. Make sure you LIKE Sage before deciding to sink a bunch of money into it.

[Skirge01]

OTA is not available to me (at least I don't think it is. I do have an old antenna up on the roof.

Definitely check this. If there's a chance you can get OTA, it will definitely change the game entirely, especially from a cost perspective. Check out AntennaWeb and see if any antenna will work for you. Most programs we watch are OTA, so 3 tuners for that cover 90% of our TV watching. OTA is also a much better quality picture than the compressed DirecTV one. You'll also be able to get rid of your monthly DVR fees if you go the Sage route. You could probably get rid of the locals fee, too. I still have them "just in case" all 3 OTA tuners are in use, although, I've never had that issue.

[TorontoSage]

I have to agree. I have been using an SA 8300HD PVR (2 tuners) for ages. For SageTV I just got an SA 4250 as the other tuner. I am finding now that with SageTV and the ability of its TV Guide to resolve recording conflicts and find out when another TV program is running (on screen without having to run to the Internet) really solves a lot of difficulties I had before.

Also, I am finding that the other features (incredible onscreen TV Guide, advanced mini-guide, SageMC, ability to customize my screen, ability to copy TV to my laptop quickly, ability to back up, watch Internet video on my TV, etc the list goes on and on) I am getting so addicted to these features that live TV doesn't matter that much anymore so I don't need to have 2 tuners and live TV (ie 3 tuners). I may get another one later and that's another $225 for the HD PVR and $100 for the tuner, but $325 is a small price to pay if I absolutely need to pay that in order to enjoy the system the way I want to. I rarely, if ever, even with the 2-tuner SA box ever found that I had a recording conflict where 3 shows wanted to record at the same time.

Also, to answer another of your questions, I haven't found that there is any one guide on here that will help you with SageTV. You really just have to dive in and read the forums, ask questions, google a bit, etc. Starting off slowly by downloading the trial software first, then later ordering the SageTV+HD PVR bundle for $250 on here is probably the best way to go. Play with that for a couple weeks watching video on your laptop and them move to adding one HD200 and see how that is. Then add a second HD200, then maybe a hardware server, etc. That way you aren't making a big investment right off the bat.

[Slipshod]

Originally Posted by kjgarrison

Slipshod, I really appreciate your help with all this.

No problem, we've all been there. One thing I think we all have in common on this forum is that we *really* want Sage to continue to be successful and sell more product. It's purely self-serving though - we need to make sure they stay fed so they keep writing new kickass features for us to use.

Do you know of a good primer and/or reference on all this? Or is it just ferret through the forums and find helpful folks like you?

Mostly ferreting, though I'd say Brent's blog "Geek Tonic" is mandatory reading. His RSS feed has a permanent home on my Google homepage. His 2-part piece on SageMC was key to convincing me SageTV was the right path for my Media Server.

[kjgarrison]

Many thanks to all of you. I'm going to test the antenna tomorrow. If I can get OTA ... well, you know

I already don't watch live TV. Everything is recorded.

But (I'm embarrassed to say) sometimes we need to record four programs at the same time. This happens every Wednesday unless two shows are re-runs. Needing to record 3 is even more common.

Since there is already a DirecTV DVR at the primary viewing position, I only will need to record two from the other DVR. Mostly the need is to distribute from the second DVR in the basement to the primary viewing location on the first floor.

Now I have to figure something out about how to hook up the Hauppauge HD PVR to the second DirecTV DVR. I'm assuming I can test all of this out using the D* DVR I already have.

I'm thinking I can just hook the HD PVR up to the component out of my D* DVR. There's a little bit of an issue with the fact that this connection is component and the next connection (HD PVR to computer) is USB2. This means (I think) that my computer has to be pretty close to the DirecTV box unless I use really long USB2 or component cables.

This confuses a little because I don't know what to do with the component output of the Hauppauge HD PVR.

I also believe that I will be unable to send live material or recorded material on the DirecTV DVR into SageTV on my computer without need for the HD PVR. In other words the Hauppauge HD PVR is necessary and the only way this can work.

I ask about using the DirecTV DVR (HR20-100) for two reasons: One, just to test SageTV, and two, because I own it.

[gplasky]

You'll need a HD-PVR for every DirectTV box you want to record from. The component out on the HD-PVR is a pass-thru which can be connected to a TV. You don't have to use it. By the same token if you do you can watch whatever you want EXCEPT when Sage is recording because you don't want to change the channel on the box when Sage is recording.

Gerry

[kjgarrison]

Originally Posted by gplasky

You'll need a HD-PVR for every DirectTV box you want to record from. The component out on the HD-PVR is a pass-thru which can be connected to a TV. You don't have to use it. By the same token if you do you can watch whatever you want EXCEPT when Sage is recording because you don't want to change the channel on the box when Sage is recording.

Gerry

Thanks Gerry, the picture is clearing up a lot.

In my DirecTV setup I have a single wire multiswitch (SWM-8) which allows certain of the DirecTV DVRs (including mine) to use both tuners from a single wire input (coax). This particular HD DVR in my basement only has one coax wire to it's location. The 'single wire' can be split, but then I need a new tuner box to go along with the DVR already there (and a second HD-PVR.)

What about the idea of just using a single Hauppauge HD-PVR along with SageTV and the HD Theater to distribute content recorded in my DirecTV HR20-100 DVR? I mean, can the SageTV gear be set up to just pass through or stream in real time (or close enough to it) whatever content is being received by the Hauppauge HD-PVR?

Ken

[gplasky]

The HD-PVR is going to require a component out connection from your DirecTV box. It can only take advantage of a single tuner becasue Sage needs to change the cahnnel on that box and only handles IR or serial. (Or firewaire if it has it) Once it records to the SageTV server it is watched with the HD-200. You'll want either a HD200 or a PC client at every TV that wants to watch the recordings thru Sage. That is why most people will centrally locate their set top boxes in a central area (think basement) with the SageTV server right there with them. Then a simple home network with a wired connection near each TV will let you connect the HD200 to a TV in every room. With SageTV you tend to stop watching live TV because you create favorites and watch them whenever you want. Recordings also allow you to take advantage of commercial skipping.

Gerry