Maximum PC reviews the HD200

[reggie14]

I just saw the September issue of Maximum PC and read the HD200 review. I didn’t get any indication that the Maximum PC reviewers “missed” anything, although the review was light on details (all magazine reviews are). They fully understood, and agreed, that the power of the HD200 was as an extender for the Sage server software. But, they characterized the Sage system as “unpolished,” which I think is arguable, and certainly justifiable. Surprisingly, they didn’t call out the UI specifically, though perhaps that falls under the “unpolished” characterization. They commented on Sage’s customizability and lack of DRM as advantages over Windows Media Center.

But, they found the HD200 “unwieldy and slow to browse”. My first thought is if they think the HD200 is slow, they should have tried out the HD100. I’m happy with the HD200 speed in extender mode, perhaps because it’s much better than the HD100 and MVP, but there is noticeable latency when browsing through lists of recordings/videos/music. Not having anything to compare it to, I don’t really know how good the HD200 is though. I think I mostly agree with the unwieldy comment. It isn’t very pleasant to browse through long list of files. SageMC does a little better than the UI. I think the reviewers would have liked to see some type of keyboard (preferably included with the remote). I see their point. In theory I agree, though I suspect I wouldn’t use it after a week or two.

I think their biggest additional complaint for the HD200 running in standalone mode was the speed gets quite a bit worse. I haven’t really played around with the HD200 in standalone much, but from what I’ve seen this is a perfectly valid complaint. I thought it was painfully slow.

I really don’t know to what extent I agree with the 6/10 rating. Those are always relative, and not having experience with other extenders and media streamers makes it difficult for me to provide a rating. I think it is important to keep in mind that the HD200’s performance in standalone mode probably did factor heavily into the rating, and rightly so. More of Maximum PC’s customers would be interested in something like the HD200 for that type of functionality than as a Sage extender.

Hopefully the review gets posted online so more of you can read it. I read it rather hastily as I was standing at the newsstand. Maybe someone else will pick up on something that I missed in the review.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by reggie14

But, they found the HD200 “unwieldy and slow to browse”. My first thought is if they think the HD200 is slow, they should have tried out the HD100. I’m happy with the HD200 speed in extender mode, perhaps because it’s much better than the HD100 and MVP, but there is noticeable latency when browsing through lists of recordings/videos/music. Not having anything to compare it to, I don’t really know how good the HD200 is though.

That's strange - I think in most cases (for me at least) browsing the HD200 UI is about as fast as with a powerful PC. The exception being when you use heavy animations or something like that. I wonder why some are experiencing slowness with the HD200 compared to others?

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Brent

That's strange - I think in most cases (for me at least) browsing the HD200 UI is about as fast as with a powerful PC. The exception being when you use heavy animations or something like that.

I think there's noticeable, but small, latency between button presses and UI actions. It's most noticeable, for me at least, when I'm going through the music UI, where I have lots of album art and there are some animations when you page up and down. It really doesn't bother me at all (most of the time), but I have to wonder if that's just because the HD100/MVP were much slower.

There was a setting I did a while back that I changed which significantly improved performance in that instance (some sort of cache setting). Maximum PC probably didn't know about that, which maybe have impacted the review.

[reggie14]

Here's a link to the Maximum PC HD200 review. I'm curious what other people think about the review.

[Brent]

Hmm. It was on par with many of the print magazine reviews of SageTV and it's hardware. They did have some valid points - from a plug-n-play perspective I think it would be the wrong device for people and I understand that many of the reviewers are these types of people. But I just get the feel from many of these reviewers (including this one) that they don't understand what they are reviewing.

The final paragraph really disqualifies the reviewer from even a slight amount of respect from me. I kind of doubt he's ever used the Tivo-to-go software cause I have and it sucks - I mean really sucks! And it really bothers me that this was the editor of the mag. I asked Will (the writer of this review) on twitter if he's ever used Tivo-to-go. I'll be interested in how he responds if he does.

By the way. Does anyone experience slowness in the menus? Especially with a computer purchased in the last 3 years or so? He made it sound like there was a delay when you hit a button on the remote & I've never experienced that.

Thanks for the link by the way!

MORE:
I've been thinking about his comments about "only buy it if you already have SageTV." You know I can't really argue too hard against that as I don't love the HD200 (or any other device really) as a standalone media player. But I wonder if his comments would have been any different if SageTV software was bundled with the HD200 for $200 total. Probably not, but that would be a great combo for someone new to SageTV - a way to still get $200 for SageTV even as they drop the real price of the device.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Brent

But I just get the feel from many of these reviewers (including this one) that they don't understand what they are reviewing.

How so? I understood, and basically agreed with, the claims that many of the HD100 reviewers didn't get it. They basically reviewed the HD100 like it was a standalone-style media streamer instead of an extender for SageTV. Particular findings aside, this review seemed to understand the two uses of the HD200.

The final paragraph really disqualifies the reviewer from even a slight amount of respect from me.

Honestly, I wasn't even sure what he was referring to. TiVo Desktop, I assume? I don't know much about it, but I'm guessing you have to transcode everything to play it back on the TiVo. Can you even do that in real-time on demand?

Does anyone experience slowness in the menus?

I just did a little testing. Usually things are pretty fast. Occasionally the music and video screens are a little slow to page up/down. I get more noticeable lag on my HD100, but that's not too bad either.

I have a couple theories. First, I wonder if Sage was generating thumbnails for his videos while he was browsing around, causing the slow menus. Second, I really think setting ui/enable_hardware_scaling_cache=true in my sage.properties file make browsing around in the music and video sections much, much more pleasant, and I'm guessing he didn't change that.

Third, he's probably mostly thinking of the HD200 in standalone mode, and exaggerating how bad it is in extender mode (maybe unconsciously). I don't even have any media files added and its still slow moving around the menus in standalone mode.

But I wonder if his comments would have been any different if SageTV software was bundled with the HD200 for $200 total. Probably not, but that would be a great combo for someone new to SageTV - a way to still get $200 for SageTV even as they drop the real price of the device.

Probably not. If I just wanted to stream digital videos and music over my network I'd really wonder why I'd have to run something like SageTV on my server. I think a lot of the reviewers that have looked at the HD100 and HD200 aren't terribly interested in the TV recording/streaming aspect of Sage. I think that's often the disconnect between Sage users and the reviewers. I don't think its always that the reviewers don't get it, I think sometimes its just they're interested in doing something different than what a lot of Sage users are interested in. I think almost all Sage users came to Sage to get the DVR functionality, and I don't think the HD200/HD Theater is going to change that greatly.

By the way, it looks like you were right on Will Smith using the TiVo software. He just responded saying he's only used it with the iPhone and PSP. Just to be sure, there's no difference between TiVo-to-go and TiVo Desktop now, is there? TiVo Desktop is just the new name, right?

[Brent]

Originally Posted by reggie14

How so? I understood, and basically agreed with, the claims that many of the HD100 reviewers didn't get it. They basically reviewed the HD100 like it was a standalone-style media streamer instead of an extender for SageTV. Particular findings aside, this review seemed to understand the two uses of the HD200.

He understood that it can be used as either a standalone media player or an HTPC extender so I guess he "gets it" more than many previous reviewers, but he barely touched on the PVR functionality of SageTV which is its strength imo. He talked of 2 "common video types" he had trouble with streaming without mentioning what those types were.
Saying TiVo Desktop was a better option tells all. TiVo Desktop works this way. To view recorded media from your TiVo, TiVo desktop transcodes the shows in a degraded video file onto a PC for watching outside of the TiVo. It doesn't have many (if any) of the same features so its not really comparable to the HD200 or even a PCH or AppleTV for that matter. The HD200 in its best form is a powerful HTPC extender for SageTV. He basically writes off the device unless you already HAVE SageTV which I think is so dismissive readers will write off the device as no good.

Honestly, I wasn't even sure what he was referring to. TiVo Desktop, I assume? I don't know much about it, but I'm guessing you have to transcode everything to play it back on the TiVo. Can you even do that in real-time on demand?

TiVo Desktop (used to be known as TiVo 2 Go) is what he was referring to. No liveTV - just transcoded (with low video quality) to another PC or mobile device - not an extender like what he was reviewing.

I have a couple theories. First, I wonder if Sage was generating thumbnails for his videos while he was browsing around, causing the slow menus.

That's possible - but would only cause slowness on the media player side of things. Maybe thats where the slowness he spoke of was though.

Second, I really think setting ui/enable_hardware_scaling_cache=true in my sage.properties file make browsing around in the music and video sections much, much more pleasant, and I'm guessing he didn't change that.

fyi Not positive but I think that setting is accessible in the UI

Third, he's probably mostly thinking of the HD200 in standalone mode, and exaggerating how bad it is in extender mode (maybe unconsciously). I don't even have any media files added and its still slow moving around the menus in standalone mode.

I think you're spot on here. If I reviewed it as a standalone media player only I wouldn't give it as high of marks.

By the way, it looks like you were right on Will Smith using the TiVo software. He just responded saying he's only used it with the iPhone and PSP. Just to be sure, there's no difference between TiVo-to-go and TiVo Desktop now, is there? TiVo Desktop is just the new name, right?

right - and I think his experience with the TiVo Desktop is limited based on his response. To me its an example of someone who didn't give the device very much time when reviewing. I imagine installing SageTV and really using it takes a lot of time that reviewers often don't have or don't want to spend so that's why the focus on the media player side of things.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Brent

I imagine installing SageTV and really using it takes a lot of time that reviewers often don't have or don't want to spend so that's why the focus on the media player side of things.

I agree that reviewers focus more on the media player side, but I disagree on the reason. While I'm sure time plays a factor, I think the main reason they focus on that side is they think their readers are more interested in using it as a streaming media player than an extender for a SageTV DVR system.

I agree that this doesn't help Sage, whose DVR functions are really what stand out. But, I don't think that necessarily means the reviews are bad. If people aren't going to use the DVR functionality, then the reviewers aren't going to to closely review that. Things like the PC Magazine review of the HD100 seemed silly to me, since that was never really put out there as a streaming media player. But the HD200 has been advertised that way.

He basically writes off the device unless you already HAVE SageTV which I think is so dismissive readers will write off the device as no good.

I'm not sure I completely disagree with that statement, although I think I'm reading his words a little differently than you are. I didn't detect some recommendation against buying SageTV software (I didn't detect a recommendation for it either). I basically took away from it that he didn't really like the HD200 in standalone mode, and he didn't think it was worth it to buy the SageTV software just to use the HD200 as a streaming media player. I understand where you're getting that idea- he says in the review "we can't recommend the HD Theater if you haven't already purchased SageTV". It's the "haven't already" part that's a little troubling. But, I think the totality of the review sends a different message that various possible interpretations of that sentence. I think he was mostly trying to avoid recommending for or against buying SageTV software.

That's possible - but would only cause slowness on the media player side of things. Maybe thats where the slowness he spoke of was though.

I'm sure he spent most of his time in the imported video/music menus. He talked about browsing through a large library of media files.

[wrems]

I think a feature that tends to be left out of the value argument for the HD200 is its ability to be a placeshifting appliance. You combine that feature with all the DVR & media sharing capabilities and suddenly it’s not just a media player that you hang an external hard drive off of to get some home videos onto your TV. I still think that the full concept of Sage is not adequately interpreted/translated by these reviews.

I am failing to understand the slowness he’s referring to. I think the HD200 is pretty darn fast, at least fast enough not to notice any appreciable latency with menu navigation. At least used in extender mode, I really don’t have experience using it in standalone mode…

I think the only people that use the HD200 as a standalone device have not fully comprehended the specific purpose of the HD200, or they have some other limitations like no cat5 drop. Now moot since wireless is here I view the device as an extender first that happens to have some standalone capabilities. To me, the standalone mode is not as significant as the extender mode.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by wrems

I think the only people that use the HD200 as a standalone device have not fully comprehended the specific purpose of the HD200...

As I've said before, maybe they just don't fully care. I think there are a lot more people out there interested in streaming videos from their computers to their TVs than people interested in setting up a PC-based DVR system.

For instance, I have a moderately geek coworker that knows a little about my system. He's remodeling his house, buying a new TV, new speakers, etc., and is interested in streaming videos to his new TV. I talked to him a little bit about running cat5 to all the rooms, buying extenders, HD-PVRs, HDHRs, analog tuners, etc., but he has no interest in doing all that. He basically just wants a DVD jukebox. I think that's pretty typical (though, if I asked people closer to my age, they'd probably be more interested in downloaded video than DVDs). So far I haven't decided whether I'll recommend the HD200 or the C200. The C200 looks pretty impressive, but we'll have to see what the reviews say.

[Brent]

I began this venture with an interest in a movie jukebox. I had a large collection of DVDs. So started with Meedio. Then decided, hey I'd really like to do more with my TV shows - and record once but be able to play them on any TV. So BeyondTV was added to my setup along with BTV Link. Then I started wanting everything to be integrated better - and wanted more features and add-ons. I looked and looked but couldn't find the perfect fit. I began dabbling with SageTV & when the HD100 arrived I couldn't resist. The rest is history.

What I'm getting at here is I think Reggie is right. Most can see a benefit to a simple media player. Then they realize they want more and a smaller group of those people evolve into HTPC users. So SageTV's entry into the media player world with the HD200 isn't a bad idea - could be a "gateway drug" into the HTPC realm. What I was trying to say above was reviewers don't have the time to get to this point in a few days and therefor never see the real potential of a server/client HTPC setup and therefore the beauty of the HD Theater.

By the way the C200 looks pretty good as a media player (or an extender for GBPVR for instance). I might try to get my hands on one for a review at some point.

[wrems]

Excellent point, and my point too.

I evolved similarly. I personally didn’t know PC based DVR’s were any good/practical. All I wanted was the ability to stream movies and see some photos on my TV without having to have a computer hooked up to my TV. This led me down the extender path and Sage. Back then I got myself an MVP and haven’t looked back since. I already owned a copy of MS Media Center but during my research of all the different MC’s and options I didn’t want to limit myself if I decided to change my mind about doing something other than just streaming a movie or paging through some photos.

My point is that the HD200 gives people room to grow and evolve their experience to their liking. A gateway drug like you said. Looking back I am glad that I went with Sage at the time even though I really didn’t have plans for its DVR capabilities. At the same time, I saw tremendous value in knowing that those features existed and were there when and if I decided to dabble with that functionality.

People tend to change their minds after the fact because they start to see the light. I think it take some practical use before something like Sage clicks with people.

[Brent]

This "gateway drug" concept is another reason I really hope to see a stronger focus on core feature/functionality improvement in the music, photos and even videos portion of SageTV. Surprisingly enough, there are a lot of people who would be very happy with robust media features and later on would dabble with the PVR side of things until their completely hooked.

[wrems]

Touché

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Brent

I began this venture with an interest in a movie jukebox. I had a large collection of DVDs. So started with Meedio. Then decided, hey I'd really like to do more with my TV shows - and record once but be able to play them on any TV. So BeyondTV was added to my setup along with BTV Link. Then I started wanting everything to be integrated better - and wanted more features and add-ons. I looked and looked but couldn't find the perfect fit. I began dabbling with SageTV & when the HD100 arrived I couldn't resist. The rest is history.

I suspect this is the most common way of getting into software DVR systems, but I don't really know. I sort of came at this the opposite way. When I was entering my junior year of college I moved into a dorm room that wouldn't comfortably fit my TV. I picked up a PVR-250 and knew I needed better software than what came with software. I don't think there were a lot of options at that time- I don't think you could even buy MCE at the time. I went with Sage because it was the only one at the time that supported multiple tuners (even though it was several years before I bought a second tuner). I used Sage for years just as a DVR before I started ripping DVDs and making music and video accessible in Sage. Really, I'd say I'm still in the process of setting up videos. I've waiting for things to calm down a bit when it came to Sage/SageMC/Phoenix/BMI before I give metadata a serious go. Now I'm just waiting for a free weekend when I can set everything up.

So SageTV's entry into the media player world with the HD200 isn't a bad idea - could be a "gateway drug" into the HTPC realm.

That's a good way to word it. Between the extenders, hard drives, tuners, etc., I keep going back for more and more... I just picked up an HDHR last night, since I noticed Comcast has a bunch of SD channels available in clear QAM and a few HD channels too. I watch a fair number of shows on TNT and Universal HD, so I'm hoping they stay there (I always have my firewire box if they don't).

[emveepee]

What a incredibly useless mini-review, but then again, it's not like I go to Maximum PC's site ever for authoritative reviews. Their readers probably are more Tivo, Slingbox types but it would have been nice to have a fairer review.

The comment about this being for SageTV I do understand. I first heard about SageTV as an MVP user looking for something better. This market is hard to tap and it is tough to decide whether the HD200/SageTV combo is worth $60+ more than an NMT like EGreat M34a (with DTS downmix) as a pre-purchase decision.

Martin

[mikesm]

It's hard for most people to get past the default UI. It's not like anything anyone is normally used to, and it's "busy" and takes time to learn. So you get a "6" instead of an "8" probably just for that.

If they had gotten SageMC loaded by default, my bet is you would have gained at least 1 pt just for that.

[reggie14]

Did anyone notice the new HD200 firmware has some limited USB keyboard support? The lack of keyboard support was one complaint in the article.

[toricred]

I'm wondering if it would work with a wireless USB keyboard. That could make things much easier.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by toricred

I'm wondering if it would work with a wireless USB keyboard. That could make things much easier.

Just tried it with 2 wireless USB keyboards and 1 wired. All 3 worked without needing to do anything at all! Awesome update indeed. But it's only in extender mode at the moment - hopefully they'll add it to media player mode soon as well.