Windows 7 Upgrade, SageTV HD Theater

[zumpner]

I really want to try the new Windows 7 Media Center but am torn as I use the SageTV HD Theater for a second room. Is there a way to get the SageTV HD Theater to play nice with Windows 7 Media Center?

[MitchSchaft]

No, sorry.

[zumpner]

Man, I hate getting locked into specific hardware and software....guess I should have thought about that before I bought the SageTV HD Theater.

Has anybody hacked this thing into a working Linux computer or something yet?

[SWKerr]

You should be able to install Sage in the Win7 machine. You can go back and forth for awhile until you realize how much Media Center sucks. You will just need to disable the tuner service in Win7 or it will interfere with Sage. Just don't have both services running at the same time.

[simonen]

I evaluated on switching over to win7 media center a few months ago mostly due to the lack of online content supported in sage. What I discovered since I had never used media center in the past is that Sage is so much better especially now that it plays nice with PlayOn thanks to EP's new plugin (if you want to call it that).

The 360 extender for MC cannot play BD rips or high quality MKV files due to a lack of codecs which I hear microsoft has no interest in updating. You may also have to contend with DRM issues with MC as well.

Given the choice between the 2, Sage is really much better IMHO.

[Tiki]

The HD200 can operate in "stand alone" mode. In that mode, you simply point it to the folders on your PC where you have video recordings, pictures, or music files and it will play them back for you. So, from that standpoint it will work with a Server PC running Windows 7 Media Center (or any other DVR software for that matter), provided it produces recordings in a format that the HD200 can play back.

However, it will not be able to display the Win7 Media Center interface, or allow you to schedule recordings in Win7 Media Center. Also, it will not be able to play back content that is DRM protected.

[zumpner]

@simonen: Thank you very much for your opinion. Personally, I love the MC GUI. It has few mistakes, is fast, looks great and is well thought out. I'm currently running Vista and only got SageTV because it supports HD content. My gripe with SageTV has always been that it's a hobby, that constantly requires attention. So, I'm looking forward to a hassle free HD experience on Windows 7.

@Tiki: Your right, the HD200 would work as a networked media player. I had thought about that but ran into the same road block you mentioned about the DRM content. Do you know who decides if content is going to be DRMed? Also, do you know what percentage of content out there is going to be DRMed?

Also, I HATE the stand alone mode. It's ssslllllooowwww and the GUI is terrible. Do you know if there are skins for the stand alone mode??

I have an XBox, so I'll probably move that in there and use it as an extender. Anybody wanna buy a HD200 on the cheap --- Firmware is up to date!

[SWKerr]

Anyone that thinks MC is more stable than Sage has not used it much. I love my Xbox360 for gaming but watching a movie or TV thru the thing has never been more stable than in Sage. I can't tell you how may times I lost connection with the server and had to restart the Xbox or the PC to get it working. I have tried Win7, Vista and XP over time and all have the same limited support for standard file formats and all have been less than stable.

I have MC running on my Main PC today with one OTA tuner. I also have the Sage Client on it pointing to a WHS. Guess which one is more stable. We will see soon if the full release is more stable than the RC but I am not expecting much.



BTW: Sage can be very stable if you just get it working and stop trying to improve it. It is the hobbyist in me that won't stop adding new cool stuff and breaking it.

[zumpner]

Originally Posted by SWKerr

all have the same limited support for standard file formats

I'm OK with that. I can't remember the last time I tried to do something fancy with my SageTV recordings anyways. I use it as a DVR and that's about it. I don't even care that the stuff is DRMed as long as I can play it back on my extenders.

Originally Posted by SWKerr

Sage can be very stable if you just get it working and stop trying to improve it.

I completely agree ... but I keep trying to improve it because it NEEDS improvement. If it just worked well, I'd leave it alone.

For example, currently, out of the blue, it'll switch back to the guide while I'm watching a show. While that doesn't sound like a big deal, I know it'll take hours of work to diagnose and fix. I have been with these kinds of things in SageTV since 2005!

If Windows 7 doesn't work well, I'm just going to go with the standard DirecTV DVRs. I just want to sit down and watch TV and not have to mess with it every few months.

[SprDtyF350]

If you run Sage on a dedicated computer it is stable. I run mine on a WHS machine and I only remember it is even there when I go to check the filter in my furnace. I use a combination of MVP's, a couple of client PC's, and 1 HD200 that I broke down and finally got the other day. My wife and kids try to break it and it just keeps on going...

Now, if you are running Sage on the same computer that you surf the web, play games, check e-mail, etc. Well, that's not so stable.

As far as Windows Media Center being better in any way.. Well, I haven't seen it. I have a computer running Win7 Media Center and I sometimes don't think it has any idea what it wants to do. Wakes up for no reason, can't find something as simple as "NFL Football" and record it as a favorite, the interface (to me) is full of useless garbage like MSNBC news, and internet tv that doesn't have anything more than clips. It still wont let you full screen the interface and use a second monitor at the same time. It's better than it used to be but still not something I would use regularly without wanting to pull all of my remaining hair out. If it would let you use another Windows computer as a client maybe, but as is... Forget it..

So I guess telling a bunch of people on a Sage forum that there stuff is just an unreliable hobby that needs to be tinkered with and that Windows Media Center is just wonderful is kind of laughable....

Have a good time with DRM, and the lack of flexibility....

[zumpner]

Originally Posted by SprDtyF350

If you run Sage on a dedicated computer it is stable.

Originally Posted by SprDtyF350

Now, if you are running Sage on the same computer that you surf the web, play games, check e-mail, etc. Well, that's not so stable.

So, now I need to get a whole new computer just for SageTV.....I didn't see that in the requirements....

The thing is, in the living room, I use dual monitors (1 19" LCD computer monitor and my flat panel TV) and I like to drag my Hulu, YouTube, etc over to the big screen. This means I browse the internet on the same computer that runs SageTV. From what you're saying, that setup will always be unstable.

Is the client software more stable than SageTV if you browse the internet on the same machine?

Originally Posted by SprDtyF350

It still wont let you full screen the interface and use a second monitor at the same time.

Looks like that's a deal breaker for me.

Originally Posted by SprDtyF350

It's better than it used to be but still not something I would use regularly without wanting to pull all of my remaining hair out.

I used back when MC 2005 came out (standard definition) and I thought it was great. I never used the Vista version because it didn't support HD. You know about the Windows 7 version better than I do because you have used it so I will definitely take your advice into consideration.

Originally Posted by SprDtyF350

So I guess telling a bunch of people on a Sage forum that there stuff is just an unreliable hobby that needs to be tinkered with and that Windows Media Center is just wonderful is kind of laughable....

You're right. I have the wrong audience here and I have not used Windows 7 media center so I have no idea if it's going to be stable. I didn't mean to imply it was going to be better than SageTV. What I meant to say is, SageTV, in the way I have it setup, is not stable. I'm going to try MC and see if that's better. If it's not, I'm going to get a DirecTV DVR.

But, after reading your advice, I can skip MC as it does not support dual monitors. So, that's that.

[zumpner]

FYI - For anybody that cares about MC

I Just did a little research and it looks like MultiMon will solve the dual monitor problem. Anybody have experience with MultiMon and Windows 7 Media Center?

[gibsonpa]

Originally Posted by SprDtyF350

Now, if you are running Sage on the same computer that you surf the web, play games, check e-mail, etc. Well, that's not so stable.

My experience has been the opposite of this. I run Sage with 2 tuners, hdpvr, usb-uirt....all on our primary computer. The kids play games, the wife does web design, we all surf, do email, etc. It has been near perfect. I was actually quite surprised that Sage could be recording 2 or 3 shows in HD and we don't even know it when using the computer. Granted, it is no too old a PC (core2duo with 4gigs ram)...but it has been great.

Now I do use extenders for all viewing (never used a PC for viewing)....

Just my .02

[MitchSchaft]

I don't have any problems like that either with my main PC/sage server.

Regardless, it sounds like you're not in to Sage. We got it, move on

[SprDtyF350]

Originally Posted by zumpner

So, now I need to get a whole new computer just for SageTV.....I didn't see that in the requirements....

The thing is, in the living room, I use dual monitors (1 19" LCD computer monitor and my flat panel TV) and I like to drag my Hulu, YouTube, etc over to the big screen. This means I browse the internet on the same computer that runs SageTV. From what you're saying, that setup will always be unstable.

What I think I really meant to say is that any Media Center type software is usually going to be more reliable when run on a dedicated machine. It is not a requirement, but you can keep to a minimum things going on that have nothing to do with recording, and streaming TV. I don't know that Sage "will" be more unreliable but I stopped using it like that a few years ago and put it on its own machine and have no more issues. I also found that I would be in the middle of a show screwing around with something and then needing to restart my machine for something I was playing with. Then the big dilemna... Do I lose part of my show while I reboot? Do I make everyone in the house mad watching TV in 3 different rooms on Clients, or extenders? Or do I wait here until the show is done to reboot? Decisions.. And the best one is when you are goofing around and do something to lock up your computer while the above people are in the middle of there favorite show.. It can get dangerous around here when that happens. So for me.. A dedicated server running Sage is the safest bet.

The client software works great. It is pretty much exactly the same as the main Sage. I use a wired connection to everything in the house except laptops and the client works great.

One thing Sage has that I really love is the Placeshifter. It is cool to be able to take your laptop anywhere that has internet access and watch the shows from Sage. My daughter is 150 miles away at College and she uses her laptop to watch the TV from our house. I was pretty surprised at the picture quality also. I would not have believed I was watching TV coming from my house.

I just loaded Windows 7 Media Center this morning and some things have changed now that it has been released. The Internet TV menu actually now has stuff in it. Sort of like Hulu, but with nowhere near the content. Maybe they will continue to add but it looks nice for a start. There is also a dedicated Netflix item. I have a Netflix account but have not played with this yet.

The workaround for the full screen multi-monitor limitation I use is to put Media Center full screen, and then hit the "Windows" key to release the cursor. It works ok but you have to do it everytime you do something in Media Center and want your cursor back. Annoying yes, But it's not a showstopper though, at least I don't think it is.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by zumpner

I completely agree ... but I keep trying to improve it because it NEEDS improvement. If it just worked well, I'd leave it alone.

Well for many, many of us it does "just work[s] well". If it's not for you, you've got some fundamental issue in your configuration you need to solve.

For example, currently, out of the blue, it'll switch back to the guide while I'm watching a show. While that doesn't sound like a big deal, I know it'll take hours of work to diagnose and fix. I have been with these kinds of things in SageTV since 2005!

I have never, ever, ever seen anything like that, and I've been using Sage since version 1.4. So:

Are you running any customizations? If so, remove them.
How are you controling Sage (remote, keyboard)? Make sure that's functioning properly.

I see you "work" on the Same PC while you're using Sage on the other monitor. It's very likely that you accidently hit Home or some other hotkey accidently while Sage is in focus.

[zumpner]

Originally Posted by gibsonpa

Now I do use extenders for all viewing (never used a PC for viewing)....

I think the viewing is what's getting me here. Great insight! Thank you for the reply.

Originally Posted by SprDtyF350

What I think I really meant to say is that any Media Center type software is usually going to be more reliable when run on a dedicated machine.

Originally Posted by SprDtyF350

Do I make everyone in the house mad watching TV in 3 different rooms on Clients, or extenders?

Originally Posted by SprDtyF350

A dedicated server running Sage is the safest bet.

Great advice! You're right. If you want something scalable, that's the way to go. I was not in the right frame of mind as I only have one extender at this time that I rarely use.

Originally Posted by SprDtyF350

I just loaded Windows 7 Media Center this morning and some things have changed now that it has been released.

It sounds like you have kinda changed your tune on W7MC. That GUI is beautiful, isn't it. Anyways, if you don't mind, can you report back on stability in the near term??

[zumpner]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I have never, ever, ever seen anything like that, and I've been using Sage since version 1.4.

Nor have I and I also have been running SageTV for quite some time. That's what's infuriating.

I appreciate you offering some suggestions on how to diagnose/solve my problem. I really do. This community has always been great for that.

But, that's kinda my point. After I uninstall / reinstall customizations, troubleshoot my keyboard and remote and monitor myself / wife to see if we are hitting something, 2 hours of my life are gone!

That's why I am slowly coming to the realization that SprDtyF350 came to a long time ago. You gotta keep that separate! That's why, for the first time, a dedicated DirecTV DVR is an option in my mind.

[stanger89]

But my/our point is you shouldn't have to do that more than once. Get Sage stable once and it's stable indefinitely. It doesn't tend to randomly flake out causing you to have to go debug things periodically.

[zumpner]

It does for me. That's what gets me.

The latest one was a codec debacle. The resolution... I now how 3 versions of PowerDVD on my machine. One for Blu-Ray, one for HD-DVD and one for SageTV. Oh, and they all have to be installed in a certain order to make sure DirectShow uses the one SageTV needs by default. That took about 6 hours to fix. That all started because a Blu-Ray I got via Netflix needed a PowerDVD software update run.

The one before that was getting the HD-PVR to work correctly. That took a lot of beta updates and weeks of messin' around.

The one before that was upgrading to Vista.

I could go on.

Also, now I have SageTV popping and telling me that one of my tuners failed every now and then. A hard reboot always solves it. That one popped up out of nowhere.

I'm not looking for solutions to these problems....just letting you know that I am always dealing with some issue. And yes, maybe it is just me.

Also, this goes back to my point that I will always need to update and tinker with it. In the examples above, all I wanted to do is watch my blu-ray, view ESPN in high-def and have a new OS (this one was not necessary really) which cost me countless hours of tinkering.