V7 UI Impressions

[David G]

Originally Posted by david1234

This is actually a pretty standard UI paradigm. The "non-destructive" option should always be the default. If you clicked delete by accident, it gives you an opportunity to stop before you make a change you can't undo.

How many times have you ever clicked 'Delete' by accident?

[David G]

Originally Posted by david1234

I'd argue with you about whether this needs "fixing."

This is actually a pretty standard UI paradigm. The "non-destructive" option should always be the default. If you clicked delete by accident, it gives you an opportunity to stop before you make a change you can't undo.

Nevermind - you probably didn't even read the whole post, or you would have noticed that my suggestions preserve the overall existing behavior.

[HelenWeathers]

Originally Posted by David G

Good solution, preserve the workflow but make it more palatable:
- the confirmation popup accepts another click of the Delete key as a Yes (and could indicate so with a small Delete button icon next to the Yes). Now it's just two clicks of the same button for the same workflow!

Better solution, make deletions undo-able:
- do not display a confirmation dialog. Instead, as soon as you hit the Delete key, clearly mark the program as deleted, but also give an Undo option (bound to Ok key for example). However, as soon as I navigate away, the deletion actually takes place and the program disappears. One click deletion with undo!

An alternative would be to make the deletions truly undo-able, i.e. have some place where you could unerase shows and files that you've deleted, kinda like the windows trashcan. Of course these files would be erased to make room if needed in a first in, first out basis. (Ok so I lied this one would be a lot more work by Sage.)

I actually like both of these suggestions. It would be better if they were moved to a suggestions thread rather that burried 5 pages deep in a thread called "Not Impressed".

[MeInMaui]

I actually like these ideas as well, but there is a small issue with the double delete approach. It doesn't protect the file from accidental deletion if the remote sends a double command. I had this issue intermittently at one point until I got my remote timings worked out. That is the purpose behind requiring different keys to begin with. You generally don't want to make it easy to do something irreversible by accident.

I would suggest adding to this idea a 1 second (adjustable) delay between the two button presses before the second delete would be accepted. I'm thinking some of these ideas might make it into Phoenix. Thanks!

Aloha,
Mike

[David G]

Originally Posted by MeInMaui

I actually like these ideas as well, but there is a small issue with the double delete approach. It doesn't protect the file from accidental deletion if the remote sends a double command. I had this issue intermittently at one point until I got my remote timings worked out. That is the purpose behind requiring different keys to begin with. You generally don't want to make it easy to do something irreversible by accident.

I would suggest adding to this idea a 1 second (adjustable) delay between the two button presses before the second delete would be accepted. I'm thinking some of these ideas might make it into Phoenix. Thanks!

Aloha,
Mike

That sounds good. I too have seen issues with RC5 repeats.

[Narflex]

Originally Posted by David G

Show me where I have been disrespectful. Stating that Sage doesn't understand UI design is not disrespectful. Stating that they won't hire a professional to fix their UI is a fact. Have they? No, because they think it doesn't need fixing, which is part of the problem.

Since your comments are mostly directed at us; I can state that you have been disrespectful. That's my opinion; and I'm entitled to it. Your comment I quote is example enough.

Don't state that you know facts when you don't; you are correct that a professional UI designer was not involved in the V7 UI redesign you see....but we had hired professionals for it previously and the result was quite unusable based on the feedback we got. So we had to then do it ourselves since there was already press information about there being a new UI in V7 (and I think we did a pretty good job considering who did it, but of course it could be better). We do plan to find another shop that can do a better job to assist us in the future; but didn't want to postpone V7 further since that will be a lengthy process when done right. (we already did postpone it a few months for the in-house UI redesign that was done)

[Rico66]

I’d also like to make a few comments about this (please don’t take it as bashing, if it sounds like that as it’s not meant that way)

The problem to me is the fact that Sage is a commercial product that relies on support from various individuals doing a super job of writing various plug-ins and tools to enhance the experience. This is simply a great community effort, but it also means that there’s no requirement that any of these plug-ins or add-ons are supported moving forward.

While some plug-ins are simply nice to have, there is a large number that is very important to many users, in some cases even required to run the Sage base system. In my case I rely on lmremote (since there’s no native MCE blaster support) and the autoaspect.stvi (related to a problem with HD PVR which stretches an incoming 480p signal). In addition to that I used SageMC from day one, as I wouldn’t have bought Sage without it. Bottom line is that I believe that many/most users use additional plug-ins on top of the Sage base.

So what has that to do with v7? My problem is simply that I don’t like the notion of paying for a beta, mainly for symbolic reasons than for monetary. If I have to pay for something, then I have certain expectations. Yes there is a trial period, but this is a bit of a rocky road for a production system with no clear rollback path. You can obviously say that it may be the best for me to be happy with my v6 system and ignore v7, but that’s kind of lame, since I definitely enjoy tweaking around with my system and trying out new things.

My issue is that I absolutely like the changes that happened under the hood like improved playback for various file formats, the pause bugfix/feature improvement (however you want to call it) just to name a few. But to enjoy these improvements I’m pretty much forced to use the new stock UI, which has visibly improved, but functionally, I’m not convinced. A couple of things that I’m missing in the default UI (which I like in SageMC) are:
- movie specific guide UI (I mentioned this already in another thread, I record mainly movies and sport, thus this is important for me)
-mini-guide (yes I do watch live tv every once in a while, and it’s much nicer for browsing than a full guide)
-album artist selection in the music UI (you can kind or work-around this using folders, if your folders are organized this way, but it’s clumsy)
- overall organization of the music UI (music is important for me; I don’t use the tv directly for music listening, it’s typically switched off in this case; but all my music is stored on the htpc, which is why it’s important that the music ui is as straight forward as possible, which means as few clicks as possible to select an album, e.g. I tend to navigate blindly through albums, or access remotely, so having a view that displays a lot of albums together in multiple columns is nice, but currently not consistently available)

Yes I can try using SageMC in the beta, but it might work or it might not work. Any kind of fixes pretty much depend on whether Mike (meinmaui) or anybody else intends to fix them or not, or I can just wait and see until another UI solution which I like gets created. But then I won’t be able to check out early on, if some of the other essential add-on or plug-ins that I rely on work or not.

So with that in mind I’d say it’s obvious and expected that some people have reservations about the UI and people should respect that has well and yes I tend to agree that there is a certain amount of pushback from some of the more “senior” people around here, when someone complains about certain aspects. Again this is not intended to be a rant, but it’s the way how I see it (and yes I sometimes tend to bash a bit about things that I don’t like)

[osburnfamily]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Studio can do anything, it's the "IDE" that's used to create the SageTV interface. If you can see it, Studio did it.

And this brings up something I really don't think you understand about SageTV, Studio, or SageMC.

I do understand the difference. I've said it repeatedly my thoughts on “someone else’s” UI, vs the original program UI and how replacing it, IMO, is always at the expense of something else (ie, stability mostly).

Do you consider the original UI with the Dynamic Menus feature a different UI? Because I don’t. Simply re-arrange what’s already there and have it navigate the way I want it too is all I ask. I don’t want to have to be a programmer to reengineer something that was paid for. That’s all MediaCenter studio does. No coding, typing or anything like that. It’s all laid out as a graphical map and the mouse just drag and drops which icon goes where. It doesn’t rip out the shell interface and replace it with foreign code.

And on that point—I WOULD like to try Sage Studio to see if I can make it do what you say it can. But, I can’t find it. If you could please point to where I can d/l it, that’d be very helpful.

[bialio]

Ctr+Shift+F12 will bring up studio. It's part of every sage download already, you don't have to get it separately.

btl.

[osburnfamily]

Originally Posted by bialio

Ctr+Shift+F12 will bring up studio. It's part of every sage download already, you don't have to get it separately.

btl.

Thanks. Yeah, as you were typing that, I was reading the ver 6. userguide and noticed that.

Question-- it says you have to have a valid license... Does this mean that I can't even TRY to change the menu order in version 7 without buying the upgrade first?

Wow...that really sucks! Who can I ask (nicely) if they can open up Studio for 7 during the trial period?

And then, assuming I decide to spend the $40 bucks, is the 7 Studio the same as what I'm reading in the 6 userguide? (I hope not...this looks pretty crazy just to do a simple re-arrange of some icons)

EDIT: And please don't say, "try it". I really don't want to install the trial just to TRY something that's documented in previous versions NOT to work during the trial.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by osburnfamily

EDIT: And please don't say, "try it". I really don't want to install the trial just to TRY something that's documented in previous versions NOT to work during the trial.

You can try Studio in version 6. The V7 Studio has a few new features, but is basically the same, so any knowledge you gain will still apply in V7.

And Studio is not just for rearranging icons. It's what the Sage devs themselves use to build the entire UI. There is no smaller, simpler tool just for tweaking menus. (You can change the graphics with a Theme plugin, but that won't affect the menu content or dynamics.)

If you're serious about learning Studio, the Studio forum contains a wealth of information, and is the more appropriate place for your Studio questions.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by osburnfamily

Do you consider the original UI with the Dynamic Menus feature a different UI? Because I don’t.

I would say that based on the significant changes it makes to the underlying STV, that yes, it opens up the same potential issues you fear from using SageMC or Phoenix or Ortus.

Simply re-arrange what’s already there and have it navigate the way I want it too is all I ask.

Studio does that. The Dynamic Menu plugin adds/changes a lot of UI code/logic.

I don’t want to have to be a programmer to reengineer something that was paid for. That’s all MediaCenter studio does. No coding, typing or anything like that. It’s all laid out as a graphical map and the mouse just drag and drops which icon goes where.

Studio can rearrange buttons almost entirely through drag 'n drop or copy/paste.

It doesn’t rip out the shell interface and replace it with foreign code.

That's (to a degree) what the dynamic menu plugin does.

Originally Posted by osburnfamily

Question-- it says you have to have a valid license... Does this mean that I can't even TRY to change the menu order in version 7 without buying the upgrade first?

The simple answer is to install V6 somewhere and try it there.

Wow...that really sucks! Who can I ask (nicely) if they can open up Studio for 7 during the trial period?

You can't, you have to have a registered version.

And then, assuming I decide to spend the $40 bucks, is the 7 Studio the same as what I'm reading in the 6 userguide? (I hope not...this looks pretty crazy just to do a simple re-arrange of some icons)

There's a lot of new APIs exposed, but it's the same basic system.

[QueOnda]

Originally Posted by Narflex

Since your comments are mostly directed at us; I can state that you have been disrespectful. That's my opinion; and I'm entitled to it. Your comment I quote is example enough.


Don't state that you know facts when you don't; you are correct that a
professional UI designer was not involved in the V7 UI redesign you
see....but we had hired professionals for it previously and the result was quite unusable based on the feedback we got. So we had to then do it ourselves since there was already press information about there being a new UI in V7 (and I think we did a pretty good job considering who did it, but of course it could be better). We do plan to find another shop that can do a better job to assist us in the future; but didn't want to postpone V7 further since that will be a lengthy process when done right. (we already did postpone it a few months for the in-house UI redesign that was done)

Narflex, Thank you and your team on a nice job. I'm glad you didn't delay any longer. People like David G don't understand that a company who listens to and opens up a product to make it customizable goes a long way. I remember a company who never listened to what their customer wants and even turned their backs to do enterprise stuff. For a while hey had customers to their beta. They lied about integration also.

David G., be a little more respectful.

[bastafidli]

Originally Posted by Narflex

So we had to then do it ourselves since there was already press information about there being a new UI in V7 (and I think we did a pretty good job considering who did it, but of course it could be better).

Narflex, I think you did pretty good job and there is nothing to be ashamed of. I do love the new main menu, the option menu (once invoked, not how it is invoked :-), the look of it, etc. The next step is I think listen to the users and see if you can improve what you have by considering the perspectives of others. I think once David got over his rant, his suggestion about Delete was valid. Unfortunately sometimes the message get lost over the deliver method, but hopefully this time it wont.

I just wish you guys have provided better/more way to voice/document these so we can have intelligent and to the point discussion about them

[bastafidli]

One more point. I wouldnt necessarily stress that the GUi has to be done by professional. Many community projects done by "amateurs" deliver sometimes much better usability and experience than projects delivered by professionals (think Microsoft Bob). And even if GUI is developed by professional, it is still an opinion of just one person (or small group of people) and may not satisfy community at large. I believe the strength of Sage is in its community and there is lots of people here who are willing to provide feedback and who are "experts" in how to use this software in various ways. Beta is exactly the time to provide such feedback and tweak the software based on it (not just fix bugs :-).

[tmiranda]

The fact is that nobody will ever design a UI that pleases everybody. I like the fact that Sage put together a UI that is a big improvement but more importantly they continue to make Sage extremely "developer friendly". By doing that you end up with a system that has many customizations so most users will find SOMETHING they like.

[barney B.A.]

Originally Posted by David G

What you're saying that the UI is an area where they should get a pass for some reason, no matter the results.

Yes I give them a pass. I like it. Maybe not an A+ yet. But it has potential.

[David G]

Originally Posted by Narflex

Since your comments are mostly directed at us; I can state that you have been disrespectful. That's my opinion; and I'm entitled to it. Your comment I quote is example enough.

Don't state that you know facts when you don't; you are correct that a professional UI designer was not involved in the V7 UI redesign you see....but we had hired professionals for it previously and the result was quite unusable based on the feedback we got. So we had to then do it ourselves since there was already press information about there being a new UI in V7 (and I think we did a pretty good job considering who did it, but of course it could be better). We do plan to find another shop that can do a better job to assist us in the future; but didn't want to postpone V7 further since that will be a lengthy process when done right. (we already did postpone it a few months for the in-house UI redesign that was done)

Disrespect was not meant. I understand (and it's your right) that you don't take harsh criticism kindly, but regardless of what happened, I was right that no UI pro was involved in the UI rework as it stands in the beta. I was wrong that you don't want to hire one - for that I apologize, and it's good news, I'm looking forward to it.

In the meantime, what is the best way to give feedback? Is the example of the Delete workflow suggestions (for example) useful?

[barney B.A.]

Originally Posted by David G

Better solution, make deletions undo-able:
- do not display a confirmation dialog. Instead, as soon as you hit the Delete key, clearly mark the program as deleted, but also give an Undo option (bound to Ok key for example). However, as soon as I navigate away, the deletion actually takes place and the program disappears. One click deletion with undo!

An alternative would be to make the deletions truly undo-able, i.e. have some place where you could unerase shows and files that you've deleted, kinda like the windows trashcan. Of course these files would be erased to make room if needed in a first in, first out basis. (Ok so I lied this one would be a lot more work by Sage.)

I think I like the second solution better.

Thoughts?

David, I actually agree with you! Excellent suggestion. This is how Tivo does it too.

[rrhorer]

Originally Posted by Narflex

So we had to then do it ourselves since there was already press information about there being a new UI in V7 (and I think we did a pretty good job considering who did it, but of course it could be better).

I can't say that I have liked the insulting tone of this thread; but I can say with confidence that my $40 was well spent. And, for my extra $0.02, I think you and the others at Sage did not just "a pretty good job" but a very good job. Keep up the good work; and there will undoubtedly be many like me who "expand your base" by showing off that good work to others.