V7 UI Impressions

[gibsonpa]

Originally Posted by rrhorer

I can't say that I have liked the insulting tone of this thread; but I can say with confidence that my $40 was well spent. And, for my extra $0.02, I think you and the others at Sage did not just "a pretty good job" but a very good job. Keep up the good work; and there will undoubtedly be many like me who "expand your base" by showing off that good work to others.

I agree 100% I love the new UI, and all the hard work for the other enhancements. Happy to pay $40 for it.

[david1234]

Originally Posted by David G

Nevermind - you probably didn't even read the whole post, or you would have noticed that my suggestions preserve the overall existing behavior.

I read you post, I just don't agree with it.

That's the problem... nothing they released as v7 would have satisfied everyone.

[jsonnabend]

Originally Posted by David G

Disrespect was not meant. I understand (and it's your right) that you don't take harsh criticism kindly, but regardless of what happened, I was right that no UI pro was involved in the UI rework as it stands in the beta. I was wrong that you don't want to hire one - for that I apologize, and it's good news, I'm looking forward to it.

In the meantime, what is the best way to give feedback? Is the example of the Delete workflow suggestions (for example) useful?

David, in my view, you haven't been disrespectful at all. As a user, you are fully qualified to say, "hey, I'm disappointed in this UI. I don't find it easy or intuitive or enjoyable to use. I think Sage should get a (better) UI guy."

For those who criticize you for not offering solutions, well, you're a user, not a UI designer. That's Sage's job.

"Hey doc, the meds you gave me aren't working."

"Oh, OK, what should I change?"

"Well, doc, I don't know. I was kind of relying on you to be the expert."

Personally, I've ponied up my 40 bucks for the upgrade already because it looks like a lot has changed significantly for the better under the hood. Version 7 appears to be real step forward for Sage. As for the new UI, it's flashy and definitely faster, but more usable? Not in my opinion. Sage clearly has some good programmers but seems to lack a UI guru.

- Jeff

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by jsonnabend

David, in my view, you haven't been disrespectful at all. As a user, you are fully qualified to say, "hey, I'm disappointed in this UI. I don't find it easy or intuitive or enjoyable to use. I think Sage should get a (better) UI guy."

For those who criticize you for not offering solutions, well, you're a user, not a UI designer. That's Sage's job.

"Hey doc, the meds you gave me aren't working."

"Oh, OK, what should I change?"

"Well, doc, I don't know. I was kind of relying on you to be the expert."

but I think you need to explain what you don't like about it.

regarding your doctor analogy, if you just tell the doc the meds don't work (or make you feel bad) but don't explain, how can the doc fix the meds.

"Hey doc, the meds you gave me make me feel bad"

"Oh, OK, how do they make you feel bad?"

"When I stand up quick, I get dizzy now"

"Oh, OK, in that case, we can adjust the script to fix that".

But you have to tell him what is wrong, and why?

[bluenote]

HTPC's are geek products, so yeah, going with the "one field one function" is silly. People would be complaining about how much screen realestate was taken up with all the now visible variations if we weren't allowing the equivalent of right click, etc. [And that suggestion to me kind of invalidates the rest, to be honest]. Saying that delete should be the default function is also silly, sorry. Your alternative suggestions were somewhat palatable, but, sorry, its obvious to me that we don't want the OP designing the new theoretical UI.

All in all, even though I have major beefs with the software sagetv these days, I like the UI, I think Sage did a pretty good job designing and implementing it, and all in all I'm not going to complain or nitpick about it.

Yes, I think there might need to be a stage where a mother in law, brother, guest, whatever gets sat down at the design-prototype and asked for feedback on each item that is obviously counterintuitive, or the intuitive items that are missing. Those things are often only obvious to a new person unsullied by expectations or learned responses.

Its a huge deal that this beautiful UI is customizable, usability is *extremely* enhanced by the on screen plugins functionality, having the same user experience and database on extenders is *huge*.

Yes, I think sage has missed the boat in a few areas, but thats functionality, not UI related. I don't think they are incompetent, or any of that either. As far as I can tell we're talking about just a few developers, and they do a good job for their efforts.

What *is* needed, though, is a system for taking feedback, and allowing other users to vote issues/solutions up on the list. That way, the truely important popular stuff would stand out. And everybody would be able to have their say, and really, arguments wouldn't happen. If nobody agrees with your suggestion, well, what can you do, people don't vote for it, end of story.

Google Code, and I think there's something called User Voice? that allows something similar? I think that would be a *really* good idea and I hope somebody acts on this. The forum isn't a good forum for suggestions IMHO.

Still rootin' for sage,

Cory

[David G]

Originally Posted by david1234

I read you post, I just don't agree with it.

What is it you don't agree with? You said that delete must be by default a non-destructive behavior, but my alternatives fully preserve that aspect of the workflow. So I'm not sure what you're saying. If you prefer 3 clicks with 3 different keys (or 5) that's your prerogative of course. You're going to be in the minority though.

[David G]

Originally Posted by bluenote

HTPC's are geek products, so yeah, going with the "one field one function" is silly.

I never said that, in fact I said the opposite. Media items for example need different behavior depending on the key pressed. I was talking about navigation. The new system is just not intuitive in the slightest. People keep bringing up the right-click - well ok, how about a left click on a hyperlink took you one place, and a right click took you another place? Of course the link would have a little star next to it so you'd totally know what that would mean. Right?

Saying that delete should be the default function is also silly, sorry.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by David G

In the meantime, what is the best way to give feedback? Is the example of the Delete workflow suggestions (for example) useful?

Glad you asked because this is something I think everyone can and should be contributing if they have ideas regarding the UI & even other features for that matter. Honestly I think it's important to know the company IS listening to you and everyone. And really, truly looking for constructive feedback. So on that note, here's how one might want to go about offering their ideas, suggestions, criticisms of the UI:

First off, start a thread this way:

V7.0.9 UI feedback

With one, simple stroke, you've begun a thread that will likely be taken in a positive way. Even if you're saying you don't like this or that. Starting out a thread with "Not Impressed" or "UI No Good" or whatever just invites people to take offense or instantly consider you an Anti-whatever. I'm not saying you are, I'm just saying that change starts one off on the right foot.

Secondly, say what you like about it. Never hurts to stroke the positives a little and it instantly makes those with the power to change things take notice. It also acknowledges the hard work (in this case blood, sweat & tears) and good stuff that WAS added. Believe me, it works nearly every time.

Then, get to the meat of your criticisms, suggested changes, things you personally would like different. Make the main point with a bullet-point, and then add detail as to what and why the change would be a good one.

Here's an example of suggestions I have for the Video section:

First up we'll tackle "Videos" since its something we use quite a bit in SageTV. Second only to TV which I'm still writing up.

• Just a general comment. After seeing the background for many times I finally noticed the "Complete Matrix Trilogy" in the distance. Funny.
• Speaking of videos does anyone else think it should be "Movies" or "Films" rather than "Videos on the main menu? Or at least an easy-to-change setting to change that name I always think "VHS" or some sort of media format when I see the word videos these days.
• What would be just awesome for me (being selfish again I know) is if we called what we have now "Movies" instead of videos and added a way to have home videos (or home movies) under photos - something like that that would separate those home movies we take of the kids and vacations etc from the feature films. This is probably not something everyone agrees with so I'm just throwing it out there to see what others think.

The above was only a sampling of the thoughts I have on the Video section - I'll post more in a "UI Suggestions" thread. Obviously, this is just one persons suggestion here, but since you asked I thought I'd put in my two cents worth.

[pawn]

Originally Posted by David G

I must echo another poster and say that Sage has completely missed the boat on the UI redesign. It seems they just don't understand UI design at all, and won't hire someone who does.

I'd like to point out Sage/Frey actually did hire someone specifically to redesign the UI a few years back. It didn't stop the complaining then and I suspect, nothing they ever do will stop the complaining.

[david1234]

Originally Posted by David G

What is it you don't agree with? You said that delete must be by default a non-destructive behavior, but my alternatives fully preserve that aspect of the workflow. So I'm not sure what you're saying. If you prefer 3 clicks with 3 different keys (or 5) that's your prerogative of course. You're going to be in the minority though.

I don't consider your suggestions to be "non-destructive", but it's entirely an opinion of my own. I have a background in software development (which includes work on interfaces), and I don't agree with you, but I know of people I work with that would. The real problem is that nothing they release will satisfy everyones idea of what a UI should be.

When I talk about non-destructive, I am literally implying that the first click should not cause a modification of any kind. The 2nd click should by default be to cancel the 1st click. I want to have to go out of my way to do a delete. That said, you could probably build in a "power-user" option, like windows does, that say's "I understand the risk, and don't want to confirm deletions."

Anyway, I'm off to eat supper, and then to try to figure out why on my hd100 all of the sage7 menus are squeezed, so that the adjacent letters are overlapping!

[Fuzzy]

I've got a suggestion. Perhaps, since part of the inconsistency problems are due to many people using different input devices, there could perhaps be a way to reflect that in the UI? There are obviously a LOT of commands available in sage. There are also a LOT of different remotes available, and all have different combinations of buttons. Some even have the incredibly confusing RED YELLOW GREEN and BLUE buttons. What if sage included a way to choose an ICON for each button on a remote? Then, the context sensitive toolbar that has already been discussed could display an icon specific to the buttons your remote has available. If a command hasn't been learned for a given remote, the tooltip for that option shouldn't be shown.. Along with this there would be required a REMOTE LEARNING wizard of sorts. One that walker through the commands, and then offered the option to choose the icon for that command (one could be chosen that most closely matches the button on your remote).

[Fuzzy]

By the way.. I have a question.. what does a 'professional UI designer' look like? In my opinion, it is someone who is cocky enough to tell his bosses 'this is how I say it should be done... your customer's recommendations are wrong'. Sage DID try this. Luckily, they went back to a customer centric design philosophy - providing all the features most would want, with the most commonly used ones at the top level (note: commonly used = those used most by MOST their users.. not those used most by one of their users), while providing all functions within a couple, logically laid out layers.

[zoop]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

By the way.. I have a question.. what does a 'professional UI designer' look like? In my opinion, it is someone who is cocky enough to tell his bosses 'this is how I say it should be done... your customer's recommendations are wrong'.

i assume that DavidG meant a "good" UI designer. BTW these are few and far between, otherwise companies wouldn't be as far off of the mark as we see in so many areas... just look at the MP3 player as a great example... how many companies both before _and_ after apple got it all wrong? certainly microsoft, samsung, sony, creative, (etc) have UI designers on staff and look at what they thew at the public for all that time...

anyway i give sage good marks for v7, and as a former user of sageMC i believe i will be sticking with the new base UI.

[Julianus]

I tried SageTV7. I liked for like 5 minutes.
Then I realized v7 is just a skin with some better animation. It gives you the feeling that the UI is now on par with today's technology and I congratulate Sage for that. I love the plugin manager, that was long overdue.

However that is all.

Do not misunderstand me. The stock UI is not bad. Better than the one from v6, but not better than SageMC.

I used the stock UI for long, then I tried SageMC and there was no going back.

There is a reason why SageMC has so many loyal followers. Sage put together a powerfull PVR engine, but you need an UI like SageMC to really shine.

With v6 I spent months putting together SageMC, Comercial Marking. Now I will have to do the same with v7.
I have no choice but to wait until we will have either SageMC7 or another UI that will treat the computer as a Home Theater PC, rather than a dumb PVR. Every cable company does an excellent job of providing a dumb PVR.

This is sad.

Sage should hire an UI team because the stock UI is written by developers when it should be provided by designers.

* merged *

[blade]

Originally Posted by Julianus

I tried SageTV7. I liked for like 5 minutes.
Then I realized v7 is just a skin with some better animation. It gives you the feeling that the UI is now on par with today's technology and I congratulate Sage for that. I love the plugin manager, that was long overdue.

However that is all.

There is a lot more to v7 than just a new UI. The improvements made under the hood appear to be a huge leap forward.

Do not misunderstand me. The stock UI is not bad. Better than the one from v6, but not better than SageMC.

I used the stock UI for long, then I tried SageMC and there was no going back.

There is a reason why SageMC has so many loyal followers. Sage put together a powerfull PVR engine, but you need an UI like SageMC to really shine.

With v6 I spent months putting together SageMC, Comercial Marking. Now I will have to do the same with v7.
I have no choice but to wait until we will have either SageMC7 or another UI that will treat the computer as a Home Theater PC, rather than a dumb PVR. Every cable company does an excellent job of providing a dumb PVR.

This is sad.

That's your opinion and I respect that, but not everyone feels the same way. Personally I always wanted to like SageMC, but every time I tried it (there were multiple times over the years) there was always something missing functionality wise that forced me back to the default v6 UI.

While I'm sure there are people who still prefer SageMC quite a few SageMC users have said they'll never use SageMC again. I guess my point is everyone has different preferences and not everyone is going to be pleased. If v7 was too much like SageMC I know I wouldn't be happy.

I haven't kept up with SageMC and v7, but I think the old SageMC you love can be run on v7.

Sage should hire an UI team because the stock UI is written by developers when it should be provided by designers.

You're not the first one to say that and Sage has already posted a response to someone else regarding the matter.

Originally Posted by Narflex

Don't state that you know facts when you don't; you are correct that a professional UI designer was not involved in the V7 UI redesign you see....but we had hired professionals for it previously and the result was quite unusable based on the feedback we got. So we had to then do it ourselves since there was already press information about there being a new UI in V7 (and I think we did a pretty good job considering who did it, but of course it could be better). We do plan to find another shop that can do a better job to assist us in the future; but didn't want to postpone V7 further since that will be a lengthy process when done right. (we already did postpone it a few months for the in-house UI redesign that was done)

[rlvogel322]

Originally Posted by david1234

Anyway, I'm off to eat supper, and then to try to figure out why on my hd100 all of the sage7 menus are squeezed, so that the adjacent letters are overlapping!

I had to upgrade my HD100s to the beta version to fix this. HTH.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Narflex

you are correct that a professional UI designer was not involved in the V7 UI redesign you see....but we had hired professionals for it previously and the result was quite unusable based on the feedback we got. So we had to then do it ourselves since there was already press information about there being a new UI in V7 (and I think we did a pretty good job considering who did it, but of course it could be better).

I'm glad to hear that Sage is taking the user interface so seriously. I'm sorry that your last experience with a professional designer went poorly. I know that can be a very frustrating experience, and I'm sure it created lots of work on your end. But I hope you can find a better designer that you are able to work with.

From what I've seen, your team certainly managed to make significant improvements to the interface. But I think we can all agree that there's always room for improvement, and it sounds like you're already planning another major effort on the interface.

So, what can we do to help? Certainly we'll need to have civil discussions about complaints and suggestions. Sometimes criticism isn't always taken well, and I think the blame for that can be spread around. Often it seems like we end up with two sides fighting with each other, even though we all have the same goal in mind. Luckily we have a lot of great forum contributors, like Brent and Stanger, that try to keep us on track.

But even with productive discussions, we'll be somewhat limited with what we can do. Most of us aren't designers, and wouldn't be very good at it if we tried. People with complaints won't always be able to suggest something better, but that doesn't mean its not something that should be discussed and considered. In general, though, it seems like a good idea to at least point to design elements of other programs. Other than that, I'm not really sure what we can, and should, do.

It might be helpful for us to have some "ground rules" for what can be considered with UI development. For instance, presumably Sage wants to stick with a single UI for everything, which means it needs to fit on 4:3 and 16:9 TVs well, and work with remote, keyboard, and mouse input.

I'm not necessarily saying I want this, but are complete reorganizations of the UI in scope? I mean, not just changing the way screens look, but (potentially) completely changing how and where media and tasks are accessed in the UI. I say this because, for the most part, the organization of the interface hasn't really ever significantly changed, and for continuity sake maybe you wouldn't want it to. (I don't have anything in mind here, I'm just asking.)

Do you have any interest in pulling plugins into the stock package? Namely, it seems like including some method for getting metadata into videos could allow for big changes to the UI. But, if that's not a feature that's likely to get pulled into the core, then it seems better to let plugin and STV developers worry about those things.

To what extent are music and imported video access high priorities? I think there's generally wide support for making imported video easy to use, but there seems to be less support behind the music functionality. I use it all the time, but I know others seem to think that basic music functionality is all that's needed, and people wanting more should get something like a Squeezebox.

And, partly because I'm curious, and partly because I think it will be beneficial for discussions about the UI, what were the major problems with the usability of the "professionally" designed UI? We'll want to avoid making suggestions that would take you down the same path again.

[Zippster]

Originally Posted by rlvogel322

I had to upgrade my HD100s to the beta version to fix this. HTH.

Yep, me too, fixed it right up though and whole thing flys now.

[Rico66]

Originally Posted by blade

That's your opinion and I respect that, but not everyone feels the same way. Personally I always wanted to like SageMC, but every time I tried it (there were multiple times over the years) there was always something missing functionality wise that forced me back to the default v6 UI.

While I'm sure there are people who still prefer SageMC quite a few SageMC users have said they'll never use SageMC again. I guess my point is everyone has different preferences and not everyone is going to be pleased. If v7 was too much like SageMC I know I wouldn't be happy.

I haven't kept up with SageMC and v7, but I think the old SageMC you love can be run on v7.

I think it would be interesting to hear, what people who like or dislike the new UI used previously, specifically SageMC users. I don't doubt that anyhow who used the default will not like the new one. This is a no contest (unless you're into 20th century technology).

But coming from SageMC there are simply things missing now. SageMC basically works in v7, but there are some issues (which might or might not get fixed).

I mentioned this before I like the changes under the hood, and the new UI looks nice, but misses things, which creates the question whether to stay with v6 and wait or not.

[MeInMaui]

Originally Posted by Rico66

But coming from SageMC there are simply things missing now. SageMC basically works in v7, but there are some issues (which might or might not get fixed).

I'll start a thread in the SageMC forum for issues under V7. Please post any problems there so I can find them easily when I'm ready to make the fixes. Thanks.

Aloha,
Mike