HD300?

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by bits

I am also interested in hearing how to do this for just over $200. If you already have a legal OS, HDDs and other assorted bits and pieces then I see the possibility but buying and assembling all new components.... or even going with the ASUS or Acer Aspire or similar products will still cost $300+

I guess I never really considered the cost of the OS, as really, I'm not sure there are any families in the world, who would be interested in an HTPC/SageTV setup, that DON'T have an XP based computer that they have since trashed.

So, I guess if that is the case, then no, it wouldn't be that cheap.. However, if you replaced the cost of the case/powersupply/hdd and instead bought a used crap system on ebay/craigslist, it would probably HAVE an XP license included, adn would end up being even cheaper (only having to purchase the newer MB/RAM/CPU).

Quick build on newegg (didn't really shop around, just picked what looked cheap and adequate:

$54.99  ECS A780GM-M3 Micro ATX AMD Motherboard
$32.99  AMD Sempron 140 2.7GHz Socket AM3 45W Single-Core Processor
$54.99  Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 500GB 3.5" SATA 3.0Gb/s Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive
$39.99  Rosewill RS-M136-BK Black Computer Case
$44.99  WINTEC 2GB (2 x 1GB) DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$227.95 TOTAL

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by m1abrams

Get a Harmony and be done with the remote complaint.

I would like to have a remote IR sensor on the box so that I can hide the box.

I do have a harmony remote and I still like the SageTV remote better. Besides, the Harmony cost like $200 each, quite an excessive price to pay when all I really want is to turn On/Off the TV, don't you think? And it can get even more expensive if you need more than one.

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

I guess I never really considered the cost of the OS, as really, I'm not sure there are any families in the world, who would be interested in an HTPC/SageTV setup, that DON'T have an XP based computer that they have since trashed.

So, I guess if that is the case, then no, it wouldn't be that cheap.. However, if you replaced the cost of the case/powersupply/hdd and instead bought a used crap system on ebay/craigslist, it would probably HAVE an XP license included, adn would end up being even cheaper (only having to purchase the newer MB/RAM/CPU).

Quick build on newegg (didn't really shop around, just picked what looked cheap and adequate:

$54.99  ECS A780GM-M3 Micro ATX AMD Motherboard
$32.99  AMD Sempron 140 2.7GHz Socket AM3 45W Single-Core Processor
$54.99  Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 500GB 3.5" SATA 3.0Gb/s Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive
$39.99  Rosewill RS-M136-BK Black Computer Case
$44.99  WINTEC 2GB (2 x 1GB) DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$227.95 TOTAL

Realistically, you probably can build a ~$200 client, but no way it can be comparable to an HD Extender. And don't forget the cost of the SageTV client license, which is included with the HD extender.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

I do have a harmony remote and I still like the SageTV remote better. Besides, the Harmony cost like $200 each, quite an excessive price to pay when all I really want is to turn On/Off the TV, don't you think? And it can get even more expensive if you need more than one.

You don't have to buy the $200 remote. Logitech makes the much simpler $30 Harmony 300, that is more than capable of turning on and off your TV, while controlling your extender... and sending volume commands to your receiver.

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

Realistically, you probably can build a ~$200 client, but no way it can be comparable to an HD Extender. And don't forget the cost of the SageTV client license, which is included with the HD extender.

In what ways is is NOT comparable to an extender. It can still playback any format flawlessly that the HD200 can, plus others (HD Audio, full BD Menus, etc) PLUS, it supports the 3D UI of SageTV7, which the HD200 does not. I agree, this was not the case a few years ago, when the HD extenders came out. A comparable system at the time would set you back about $500. However, with even the cheapest ATI and Nvidia IGP's more than capable of the hardware acceleration required, you can now build a capable HTPC client for FAR less dough. In my opinion, the only thing the extender wins at is power usage, and size (though for about $30 more, you could base your client on something like this)

[bits]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

I guess I never really considered the cost of the OS, as really, I'm not sure there are any families in the world, who would be interested in an HTPC/SageTV setup, that DON'T have an XP based computer that they have since trashed.

So, I guess if that is the case, then no, it wouldn't be that cheap.. However, if you replaced the cost of the case/powersupply/hdd and instead bought a used crap system on ebay/craigslist, it would probably HAVE an XP license included, adn would end up being even cheaper (only having to purchase the newer MB/RAM/CPU).

Quick build on newegg (didn't really shop around, just picked what looked cheap and adequate:

$54.99  ECS A780GM-M3 Micro ATX AMD Motherboard
$32.99  AMD Sempron 140 2.7GHz Socket AM3 45W Single-Core Processor
$54.99  Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 500GB 3.5" SATA 3.0Gb/s Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive
$39.99  Rosewill RS-M136-BK Black Computer Case
$44.99  WINTEC 2GB (2 x 1GB) DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$227.95 TOTAL

Not to be argumentative but most older PCs did not come with full OS recovery discs and hunting around on ebay for bits and pieces or garage sales is IMHO out of scope when considering the general population that exists within the techie group that tends to buy and use networked media players. I for one am in that group. I personally have never had an old PC lying around that I could borrow the OS license from.

I have not checked out your list of parts above but I have a feeling that it can not smoothly play full BD video, which my HD200 has no problem doing.

While I do agree that the current price of an HD200 is a little on the high side and that a mythical HD300 will cost more initially it will still be cost competitive with the low end full BD capable HTPC because for many it will be the simplest and most reliable straight out of the box solution.

[valnar]

I started in the early days before Sage and even AVSForum was around, like late 90's. I remember my first WinTV board. I moved up through Win2000, XP, WinDVD, PowerDVD, MPEG2 decoder boards, dScaler, pre-DXVA days, ffdshow, hardware/software deinterlacing, etc. all the way to today with dual-core processors capable of handling everything in software. I'm fairly familiar with all manners of getting decoders to work and graphedit.

I still would rather have an HD200.

That being said, I do have a PC connected to my TV anyway, but I hardly use it. It's reserved for Hulu, NetFlix VOD, web videos, home picture viewing and general surfing. I have the Sage Client loaded on it, but I can't tell you the last time I fired it up.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

In what ways is is NOT comparable to an extender. It can still playback any format flawlessly that the HD200 can,

Flawlessly is where it gets very questionable IMO. I've basically had the same experience as valnar, I'm not sure I've ever had a PC that truly managed "flawless" playback.

...plus others (HD Audio, full BD Menus, etc) PLUS, it supports the 3D UI of SageTV7, which the HD200 does not.

The 780G board you listed can't do HBR bitstreaming, nor can it to multichannel PCM over HDMI, nor is it PAP so unless you're using analog multichannel it's not capable of HD audio either.

The other issue is the 780G is really no better at deinterlacing than the HD200, and when combined with the fact that PCs for all intents and purposes can't do native output switching, it will have worse overall deinterlacing if your TV/video processor is decent.

FWIW my last HTPC was a 780G/Athlon BE and it was no match for the HD200 in video quality on anything but the most "ideal" (read progressive) content.

I agree, this was not the case a few years ago, when the HD extenders came out. A comparable system at the time would set you back about $500. However, with even the cheapest ATI and Nvidia IGP's more than capable of the hardware acceleration required, you can now build a capable HTPC client for FAR less dough. In my opinion, the only thing the extender wins at is power usage, and size (though for about $30 more, you could base your client on something like this)

IMO the only reason to use a PC is if you can't live without HBR audio or the "3D" interface, and frankly after running the Sage UI on my i7/9600GT machine and the extender, you really don't "lose" anything significant on the HD200.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Flawlessly is where it gets very questionable IMO. I've basically had the same experience as valnar, I'm not sure I've ever had a PC that truly managed "flawless" playback.



The 780G board you listed can't do HBR bitstreaming, nor can it to multichannel PCM over HDMI, nor is it PAP so unless you're using analog multichannel it's not capable of HD audio either.

The other issue is the 780G is really no better at deinterlacing than the HD200, and when combined with the fact that PCs for all intents and purposes can't do native output switching, it will have worse overall deinterlacing if your TV/video processor is decent.

FWIW my last HTPC was a 780G/Athlon BE and it was no match for the HD200 in video quality on anything but the most "ideal" (read progressive) content.



IMO the only reason to use a PC is if you can't live without HBR audio or the "3D" interface, and frankly after running the Sage UI on my i7/9600GT machine and the extender, you really don't "lose" anything significant on the HD200.

In all honesty, I don't even have an HDMI receiver. That said, I DO have a lot of BD rips, and I am one of the twisted souls that LIKE BD menus. Therefore, I will stick with PC playback for the foreseeable future. Combine that with my needs for 3D video, and I'm definitely going to be sticking with it.

Also, ReClock can get you native switching, if you desire that... (for free, by the way)

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Also, ReClock can get you native switching, if you desire that... (for free, by the way)

Sort of. But last time I tried it the playback apps needed to be restarted because they got hosed when the resolution changed. But the bigger issue is it's impossible to disable deinterlacing on a PC. You can come sort of close by setting the deinterlace method to weave, but it's not quite the same because there's no forced sync of fields from the video to the video card's output fields.

[valnar]

Video through PC's is the definition of a Rube Goldberg mechanism. Sure it will work, but man oh man what it takes to get there.

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

You don't have to buy the $200 remote. Logitech makes the much simpler $30 Harmony 300, that is more than capable of turning on and off your TV, while controlling your extender... and sending volume commands to your receiver.

I don't even like my $100 Harmony 880 that much, so I'm not sure if I would like a $30 version. The SageTV remote is perfect if it can control my TV also, just the basic functions.

In what ways is is NOT comparable to an extender.

.
Cost, very difficult to build a comparable PC client for $200 when factoring in OS and client licenses. I'm not even sure you can do it easily for $300, espcially for the silent operation and small form factor.

[mistergq]

I was able to take a dell single core computer (that I had from my office) reformat it, add a PCI HD nvidia video card, and make it work with HD. However, XP was corrupt and I bought one version off Ebay...eventually, it failed the windows test. Then I bought a second version however, after the reformat to put the new OS on, I could not get the Nvidia driver and Arcsoft h264 codec to play nice with one another. I eventually obtained the project to see if I could play HD with single core. It was a fun experiment and bought another HD200.

While there may be cheaper devices out there, what my HD200s (even HD100) can do is amazing and I would not give them up. I also have no desire to go back to building a computer per tv.

[Fuzzy]

I in no way said that you should build a computer for each PC. I was merely pointing out that the very FEW improvements people have mentioned they wanted from a mythical HD300 extender (HD Audio, Full BluRay support, 3D UI), could be had now, for not much more than the cost the HD300 would likely end up being. Most of those features would not really be required outside of your main watching location, so it's certainly not a every location type of thing. For casual viewing in secondary locations, the HD200 is ideal.

[valnar]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

For casual viewing in secondary locations, the HD200 is ideal.

Funny enough, it's the casual viewing on a secondary TV that needs the PC for me since it can do DTS. For my main TV with the A/V receiver, the HD200 can break out the DTS for me.

[autoboy]

Originally Posted by cat6man

as to the first point, it also depends on the quality of your audio setup. the difference between 450k divided by 5 channels is a pretty poor sound compared with ~1Mb/channel (can't remember exact values, sorry)

for a test, try the BD of the movie "Chicago" and compare the DVD audio and the BD HD audio............no comparison to my ears

Cat6man,

You can't compare the DVD track and the BD track because they may be completely different mixes from the mater audio track. They probably remixed the audio track. What you need to do is to connect both the HDMI and the Toslink to your receiver and switch between the Toslink for Core and the HDMI for HD audio. Do that, and I guarantee you will not hear a difference. I am so confident that you can't, that I would give you my HD200 if you could reliably pick out the HD audio stream in a blind test. I've tried it and invited friends over for a listen on my pretty high end, well calibrated audio system and nobody could pick the HD out, and nobody could actually hear any difference at all. We agreed that even if there was a difference in any particular scene and we were just picking the wrong scenes to watch or had poor ears, if you were actually engaged by the movie there would be no way it would make any difference in how you perceived the movie. You would be better off spending your $ on new speakers, sub, amp, or even a cushy throw rug for your feet.

Double Blind tests have been done and experienced professionals are not able to pick out the HD track on calibrated high end gear in a sound treated room. DTS on BD is the full 1.5mbit and DD on BD is 640K. They both are pretty much indistinguishable from the origional soundtrack until you get down to into the 700s for DTS and 300s for DD. And, just like h.264 is a more efficient codec than mpeg2, DD is a more efficient codec than DTS so you can't go by their respective bitrates to measure their quality. DD sounds good down to much lower bitrates than DTS, hence the lower bitrates and its choice for DVDs and HDTV.

If you really want HD audio that's fine and if you think it sounds better to you then thats fine too, but you aren't missing much and it sure as hell isn't worth losing the integration that the HD200 has with SageTV over the Dune.

[pjpjpjpj]

Originally Posted by mistergq

I was able to take a dell single core computer (that I had from my office) reformat it, add a PCI HD nvidia video card, and make it work with HD. However, XP was corrupt and I bought one version off Ebay...eventually, it failed the windows test. Then I bought a second version however, after the reformat to put the new OS on, I could not get the Nvidia driver and Arcsoft h264 codec to play nice with one another. I eventually obtained the project to see if I could play HD with single core. It was a fun experiment and bought another HD200.

While there may be cheaper devices out there, what my HD200s (even HD100) can do is amazing and I would not give them up. I also have no desire to go back to building a computer per tv.

Amen. The ability to use the HD100 (at the time), and not need a high-end PC in order to have HD, was what led me to Sage in the first place. I had an old PC that I got off eBay for my mother-in-law to use for email and web surfing. She ended up not needing it, so I had this old, outdated, "beater" computer. Lo and behold, it was all I needed as my Sage server, and has been performing flawlessly, running 24/7 for about 2.5 years now (specs in my sig). All the video handling work is done by the HD extenders.

FWIW, I am finally in the process of building a new server that would handle HD and all... but not because I need it, just because I got a free PC from my office and have the case, HDD, DVD, PS, OS, etc., and just need to replace the MB, RAM, and processor.

[Diginerd]

There are certainly Areas where the extenders currently fall short, but what we have today is light years aheafd of pretty much anything but the most tuned, high end HTPCs.

They win hands down in terms of ease of configuration, low power consumption and price/performance compared to any form of PC running client software.

What they do lack most folks don't miss (unless you're trying to replace a cunningly built PC). Sure, many would like DTS to be processed and not just passed through the digital out. Others would like their extender have enough GPU to support high-bit rate H264 files, cunning signal processing and maybe some output tweaking to allow 1:1 pixel mapping to the display, but we're not mainstream.

The original HD-100 is very capable, although it took some hardware hacking to get 1080p out of it.

So much so that I wasn't compelled to upgrade to the 200. If there was a 300 and it provided a significant upgrade to what's out there (as opposed to incremental features) I'll stay sat on the sidelines with what I have.

An IPad app I'd buy in a millisecond without even thinking.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Diginerd

... maybe some output tweaking to allow 1:1 pixel mapping to the display...

Not to go too far off topic, but what kind of display do you have that DOESN'T do 1:1 mapping with a true 1080 source?

[Diginerd]

My Panasonic for one.. it's a couple of pixels short on both axis. Off the top of my head I want to say vertical resolution is something like 1057, not 1080.

[Fuzzy]

You are talking visible resolution. That is any display. However, if you send a 1080i/p signal to it, it DOES map 1:1 (the 'missing' pixels are overscan, outside the visible borders of the tv). This is how TV's are SUPPOSED to work (and always have). In fact, all media is shot with this overscan in mind. There's no way to change this with 'custom resolutions' and such. What problem are you experiencing with this overscan (and have you adjusted sage's overscan settings?)

[Diginerd]

Heyas,

Thanks for the input, but in my case there is certainly weirdness with the tv. Overscan settings are spot on with the extender, so it's not that.

With 1080p@24,30,60 Hz via HDMI the extender looks "soft" and also if you look closely on the screen you can see very slight beating (or is that alai sing artifacts? Not sure, I'm an audio guy really).

Same output and tweaking my nvidia settings on the pc (Nvidia 240) hdmi out and it's razor sharp. Not touching the "sharpen" settings, slider is set ot "off".

No idea why this is the case, but it's noticeable by the wife.

On top of.looking sharper I can overcome the limited color settings the panel provides with the pc, but not with the extender. This are separate issues of course, but things I'd love to be able to do with an extender and skip the PC.

Cheers