Am I doing this backwards?

[Grasshopper]

I've been gathering information to build a Sage server and client for quite some time now. I've been planning to build a family room pc and display TV on my current Samsung standard def 27 inch TV with composite input. So I've spent a massive amount of time and effort researching the TV output quality of various cards and analyzing the tradeoffs in various designs, wishing that my TV had an S-video or higher quality connection.

But today it hit me: Why not get a big monitor, connected to the HTPC through VGA (or DVI if the monitor has the connection), replacing my TV? If I get a monitor that displays XGA resolution, can I do Sage on it? DVD's? HDTV?

[falchulk]

How big of a monitor? LCD or CRT? If you are thinking big bucks, why not go for a 42" plasma? You could do sage and DVD's on it but for hdtv, you would require a box or a hdtv card that is not supported by sage.

[kny3twalker]

you could buy a CRT TV that does high re3solution about the same as most plasmas and they will have DVI and VGA inputs and it will be much cheaper
32" HDTV capable Sony for 1300
but other brands are less
and it will do 1080i
there are giant CRT monitors that can do incredible resolution but I would look at a plasma also and get 768 resolution thats good enough and the highest standard for HDTV now (well actually 720p until 1080p)

[eruji]

Why not get a big monitor, connected to the HTPC through VGA (or DVI if the monitor has the connection),

this is exactly the idea of some on the AVS forum.

take a look at the monivision

www.monivision.com

do searches for it in www.avsforum.com

[kny3twalker]

nothing other than giant 34" inch ( the biggest CRT monitor) will do anything better than 768 resolution
so just basically buy a HDTV capable or HDTV of any kind that has the inputs you want....... does not matter who you buy from or what type
but I would definitely go to a store first and look at picture quality difference between HDTVs and also read reviews about the chooses you think you like

also make sure it has a good black level
turn off the TV and make sure black is black

[Grasshopper]

Okay, maybe this can work. I found a refurb Philips ps1127 27" monitor for $265 shipped at www.electronicsnation.com -- looks like it can do 1024x768. Worth a try. Now the inevitable followup question: I'm building a client pc to drive this monitor to do mostly Sage, maybe light browsing. What kind of video card should I consider for optimal "TV" viewing on this monitor?

I'm considering two nForce motherboards -- the Asus A7N266-VM and the Shuttle MN31N (nForce2). The Asus is only nForce1 and GeForce2 graphics built in, while the Shuttle is nForce2 and has GeForce4 graphics built in. But the Shuttle is $45 more expensive once you buy the spdif bracket. So I guess my question is whether the onboard video of the Shuttle will be sufficient for this purpose -- because if I'm going to need a video card anyhow, I might as well save some money and get the Asus.

As always, your responses, guidance, wisdom, and experience are valued.

[stanger89]

Originally posted by kny3twalker
so just basically buy a HDTV capable or HDTV of any kind that has the inputs you want....... does not matter who you buy from or what type

A word of caution about this, most HD-Ready TVs are limited to 1080i input and often only via YPbPr, which will require Powerstrip to define a custom 1080i resolution and an expensive transcoder to convert VGA->YPbPr, OR, an ATI Radeon with the HDTV adapter. TVs with VGA or RGBHV inputs are better (like Mitsubishi's) but those only support 1080i/480p. Not a bad thing, just something to be aware of.

Grasshopper,

If you're displaying on an HDTV you'll want a good video card. Acording to some reports over on the AVS Forum, the Quadro FX 1100 is the best you can get right now. If you want something in the realm of sanity, the GeforceFX 5700 is probably the best choice, followed closely by the Radeon 9600XT.

[Grasshopper]

Originally posted by stanger89

Grasshopper,

If you're displaying on an HDTV you'll want a good video card. Acording to some reports over on the AVS Forum, the Quadro FX 1100 is the best you can get right now. If you want something in the realm of sanity, the GeforceFX 5700 is probably the best choice, followed closely by the Radeon 9600XT.

Hmm. Is this true even if I'm not (yet) planning to display HD content? Currently, my plan is to do Sage and DVD's on a client box displaying on a 27" CRT monitor that's capable of 768 lines of resolution. Would GeForce4 be sufficient for this purpose? How about GeForce2?

Thanks for all your help!

[stanger89]

I use my HTPC for SD/DVD exclusively (plus music). I got a Radeon 9500 specifically because at the time ATI was considered the only way to go for HTPC usage, there was a consensus (and we know how rare those are in the PC world) that ATI cards had better PQ than nVidia. That was pre-Geforce FX.

Right now I wouldn't recommend anything without DX9 HW capability and a decent core speed, that would mean the FX 5700 and Radeon 9600XT. Anything less than that and you risk (if not guarantee) poor VMR9 performance (I get tearing with my Radeon 9500 64Mb non-pro), plus at least with nVidia (not sure about AIT) you get better hardware acceleration and deinterlacing in the FX line vs the previous Geforce lines.

So what does all that mean? If I were buying now I wouldn't buy anything less than a FX 5700/R 9600XT, Sage and a number of other apps are more and more taking advantage of DX9/VMR9, and those cards probably have the best PQ available short of workstation cards like the Quadro FX. Now if you already have a Geforce4, I would give it a shot and see what you think, if you have a 2 I'd probably upgrade. One more comment, when I went from my Geforce4 MX to my R9500 the difference was readily apparent, on my MX you could easily make out bands in colors (like when you run 16-bit color only a bit more subtle), on the 9500 colors were noticably smoother. This probably doesn't matter too much for the comparatively poor quality signals Sage records, but for DVDs it can make a difference. The choice is up to you.

[Scriber]

Grasshopper -

pardon my ignorance here but since you are not doing this for HD is the whole idea to simply avoid component input and to use vga/dvi input or...? Is XGA even then necessary? That resolution is probably too high for 10' use (if desired).

The reason I'm wondering, is that when I temporarily used my LCD monitor as a display the desktop looked better than my 27" Sony tv that I use now but IIRC live or recorded tv playback was not that much different - still the same Vcard an 8500dv. Is desktop display improvement the goal over your current component input tv?

Also can you tell if the philips monitor you reference does XGA native or is just "compatible"? If the latter AFAIK this will degrade the image quality. I checked the philips site and couldn't find the model - I'm intrigued so I wanted to see the specs and overall size of the monitor as I have space issue.

Sorry if I'm missing this but please set me straight if I'm misunderstanding.

[Grasshopper]

Originally posted by Scriber
Grasshopper -

pardon my ignorance here but since you are not doing this for HD is the whole idea to simply avoid component input and to use vga/dvi input or...? Is XGA even then necessary? That resolution is probably too high for 10' use (if desired).

The reason I'm wondering, is that when I temporarily used my LCD monitor as a display the desktop looked better than my 27" Sony tv that I use now but IIRC live or recorded tv playback was not that much different - still the same Vcard an 8500dv. Is desktop display improvement the goal over your current component input tv?

Also can you tell if the philips monitor you reference does XGA native or is just "compatible"? If the latter AFAIK this will degrade the image quality. I checked the philips site and couldn't find the model - I'm intrigued so I wanted to see the specs and overall size of the monitor as I have space issue.

Sorry if I'm missing this but please set me straight if I'm misunderstanding.

Yes, the main reason I'm doing this is for input reasons -- but what I have now isn't even component, it's composite (the lowest quality connection currently available, short of tin cans and string). I wouldn't have to run the monitor at XGA, I suppose SVGA might be fine. I'm getting the monitor at www.electronicsnation.com -- but if I'm making a big mistake, please tell me asap and I'll cancel the order.

[stanger89]

FWIW, I run my 36" HDTV at 1280x1024i (1080i timings). One reason to go XGA is so you can watch widescreen DVDs without loosing resolution. For example:

Widescreen DVD - 720x480 16:9 -> 854x480
On VGA (640x480) -> 640x360 - Lost 80 vertical lines, 120 vertical lines
On SVGA (800x600) -> 800x450 - Lost 30 vertical lines
On XGA (1024x768) -> 1024x576 - No loss

I can tell you by experience that with the VGA/SDTV case the loss in resolution is pretty noticeable. I don't know anything about that TV but it looks like a good value, its about as much as any new 27".

[falchulk]

I have a shuttle with the onboard geforce4. I use a 55" hdtv and have NONE of the tearing or other problems described by stranger. Its output REALLY impresses me.

[stanger89]

Yet another reason I'm getting tired of my stupid Radeon 9500, when non-DX9 cards like a Geforce4MX can do VMR9 better than my DX9 Radeon something is wrong. Also you probably wouldn't notice the banding with VMR9, I think it was an overlay issue, there was no VMR9 at the time. I was probably happier with my 4MX overall than I am with my 9500.

[mlbdude]

That is funny you say that. I have two HTPC's setup. One using my new 9600 and the other using the hand me down 9000. I have better luck with VMR9 on the 9000 when it comes to tearing .

I can only guess it comes down to the older cards not having what it takes on board so they let the CPU do more work.

[kny3twalker]

personally I would not buy a refurbed monitor
I would set up my SageTV stand alone box and look at the quality on the TV
whether it was through a pvr 350 or the TV out from your video card

I would definitely try the MX geforce 4 before the 2 though

If you do not think the resolution and PQ is accessible then consider the big monitor

but I would still look at HDTV capable TVs and maybe a 9600 XT, 9700 PRO, 9800 PRO video cards with dongle

all of these can be had under 200 dollars

nothing in comparsion to HDTV

but still try it out on a SDTV

sage free trial

pvr 250/350 you can return

you have a MX geforce 4. right ???
try the TV out at 800x600

I got skips playing DVDs on my old MX 440 at 1024x768

do you plan to have multiple tuners 2 or more?
are you planning to do 100s of GBs?

or do you not like TIVO?

-Robert

[Grasshopper]

Originally posted by kny3twalker
personally I would not buy a refurbed monitor
I would set up my SageTV stand alone box and look at the quality on the TV
whether it was through a pvr 350 or the TV out from your video card

I understand I'm taking a bit of a risk here, but if the monitor is okay, I think I've found one heck of a bargain. A 27" progressive scan display capable of 800 lines of resolution, for $265 shipped. And since (for now) I'm not planning to buy a video card at all but rather try the Shuttle's onboard graphics, the net cost to me isn't even $265 but about $200. For that I get a VGA connection to my display, progressive scan, and 800 lines of resolution rather than NTSC. Who knows -- maybe down the road if I get an HDTV card, this thing can display HDTV at 720p?

but I would still look at HDTV capable TVs and maybe a 9600 XT, 9700 PRO, 9800 PRO video cards with dongle

That would entail a larger investment than I'm comfortable with, right now -- nearly $200 for the card, plus at least $500 for the TV. The Purchasing Department (wife) won't approve that right now, and wants to wait for big screen HDTV's and projectors to come down in price some more. Moreover, there are few options for timeshifting HDTV currently and none supported in Sage (so far as I know), and not a whole lot of HD content. So HD can wait.

you have a MX geforce 4. right ???
try the TV out at 800x600

I got skips playing DVDs on my old MX 440 at 1024x768

do you plan to have multiple tuners 2 or more?
are you planning to do 100s of GBs?

or do you not like TIVO?

-Robert

I don't have a GeForce4 yet, as I'm in the process of acquiring parts for the client box. I wanted a microATX board with good sound out through SPDIF (planning to do an MP3 jukebox with this machine as well), so I've been looking at nForce and nForce2 boards. Narrowed my search down to the Asus A7N266VM (nForce) and the Shuttle MN31N (nForce2). Both of them have the advanced southbridge with excellent sound output. I'm settling on the Shuttle because of its superior video, as well as the potential of using the onboard FireWire for some future HD connection.

I considered TiVo, but was attracted to Sage because of multiple tuners, multiple displays (several tv's and pc's around the house), and the ability to archive recorded shows on DVD. The server will have two 200 gb SATA drives in RAID0, with an IDE 120 gb drive for drive images and supplemental storage.

Many thanks for your helpful advice!

[kny3twalker]

yeah it just seems excessive to buy a diferent to use for SageTV wihtout at least seeing the quality on a TV and PC monitor you have
I see though from what you said that TIVO is not right for you
I am not sure what nForce2 mobo has for video but they are at least the same the MX line and you can get better
if you have not purchased this mobo yet you may want to make sure it has one of the higher onboard video cards rather than just a MX
and why nForce1? why not nForce2?
furthermore ATI does make mobos but not sure if they have DVI output

still think you should buy the hardware separate from the TV/monitor

upgrade one ro the other later

the quality on a regular old SDTV is pretty much the same as my DDS
Robert

[Scriber]

Hey Grasshopper - how did the monitor turnout? I'm a bit curious...

[Grasshopper]

I'll let you know later today, hopefully. With luck, the Fedex Santa will be dropping by with a CPU and a hard drive to finish my client box. In the meantime, I have plenty to do configuring the server to work properly (see growing thread in Sage Software forum).