Sage at CES?

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Nelbert

That doesn't make it a killer feature for Sage or their plans for the future.

You know. I think CableCard WOULD be a big new feature for SageTV. Maybe not "killer" but it would win over many MC users. But as I said I don't think it's easy for SageTV to justify an investment given the CC environment changing due to FCC right now.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by Nelbert

There I think is the root of your frustration with lack of CC in SageTV even though you knew it wasn't there or expected to be added when you bought SageTV. It's a killer feature for YOU and the reason you feel cablecard support would be HUGE.

And CableCard is of zero utility to anyone outside of the US and Americans who can't/won't get cable vs satellite.

[KeithAbbott]

Lots of upclose photos of the new HDHomeRun Prime:

http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/06/h...blecard-tuner/

But even more interesting, at least to me, is the upclose photos of the new version of the HDHomeRun. New smaller form factor, single coax input for dual tuners (good for some, bad for others), and a lower retail price.

EDIT: Sorry, hadn't seen the earlier (duplicate) post.

[rtrski]

If you were mixing cable vs. OTA before (one input to each tuner) you can just keep the same box. But for splitting the input, I have to believe (or hope) that an internal splitter works better than the cheap arse Radio Shack special I'm currently using to split my antenna inputs to my dual. At the very least they're removing a couple of external connectors and some cable length.

Thanks for the news - I actually hadn't noticed the new Dual pics below the Prime, and since I don't have (or intend to get) CC, the dual news is nice to me. Keep that in mind for an upgrade!

[drewg]

Originally Posted by KeithAbbott

But even more interesting, at least to me, is the upclose photos of the new version of the HDHomeRun. New smaller form factor, single coax input for dual tuners (good for some, bad for others), and a lower retail price.

Anybody know if they've got a decent modern tuner/demod combo in the new version? My (current model) HDHR has unacceptable signal quality issues in my environment -- issues which are not shared by a $25 LGDT330x based USB stick, or a Samsung based $20 woot special PCI tuner. I'm going to upgrade my server soon, and I really want to use a network tuner..

Thanks,

Drew

[Fuzzy]

I don't think I've ever heard about tuner quality problems with the HDHR's. They are historically some of the best tuners available (rivaled possibly by the 2250 cards). If anything, I've heard they a TOO sensitive, syou have too strong of a signal, they may not lock on well.

[drewg]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

I don't think I've ever heard about tuner quality problems with the HDHR's. They are historically some of the best tuners available (rivaled possibly by the 2250 cards). If anything, I've heard they a TOO sensitive, syou have too strong of a signal, they may not lock on well.

You've heard from me every time you talk about how wonderful HDHRs are. They're simply not good for ATSC. They use a very old tuner/demod that was almost certainly chosen for its power profile, not its tuning performance. In addition to the demod being terrible at multipath, the tuner portion is also a victim of that horrible "14.5 channel" UHF interference issue. Their own forums are full of "my Samsung / LG / etc HD TV gets this channel perfectly, but I cannot get it with my HDHR" threads.

My HDHR is *great* for pulling in channels 50 miles away (which is what I use it for), but it can't keep a lock on channels 15 miles away. When every other modern tuner I have (see tuners in my sig, plus a USB Kworld UB435q) can keep a lock with the same antenna / cables & distro amp, then I say the problem is with the HDHR. The only tuner I've had that was this bad was an old Air2PC (nxt2002 based 3rd gen tuner from ~2004).

I *want* to love these guys, I really do. Their customer support & software are top notch. I've spent hours in my attic re-siting the HDHR. I finally gave up, and use one input for QAM, and the other to pull in a neighboring market.

Drew

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

I don't think I've ever heard about tuner quality problems with the HDHR's. They are historically some of the best tuners available (rivaled possibly by the 2250 cards). If anything, I've heard they a TOO sensitive, syou have too strong of a signal, they may not lock on well.

Originally Posted by drewg

My HDHR is *great* for pulling in channels 50 miles away (which is what I use it for), but it can't keep a lock on channels 15 miles away.

That is exactly the down side I posted (about not being able to handle higher powered signals... i.e., your 15 mile station). The point remains that a majority of users live a lot closer to 50 miles from a tower, than they do live 15 miles away.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by drewg

I *want* to love these guys, I really do. Their customer support & software are top notch. I've spent hours in my attic re-siting the HDHR. I finally gave up, and use one input for QAM, and the other to pull in a neighboring market.

Just curious what's a good tuner then? And I'm not trying be combative or anything, I'd really like to know, it's so hard to find good info from people who have actually tried a lot.

The other question I have is do you have one of the older or newer design HDHRs? Because they do have two revisions with different chipsets, and the second revision ones are supposed to be better.

FWIW, the HDHR is the best tuner I've actually had time with, but my testing has been relatively limited. I've been through a MyHD 130, Avermedia A180, Vbox 150 and the HDHR, though not all with the same location/antenna/amp configuration.

[drewg]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Just curious what's a good tuner then? And I'm not trying be combative or anything, I'd really like to know, it's so hard to find good info from people who have actually tried a lot.

To be fair, I have a nightmare multipath scenario for ATSC:
1) I live on the far side of a hill, 15 miles from the towers
2) I live 4 miles from a major airport.
3) I have attic mounted antennas (old-school CM4228, not the newer "CM4228HD" )
4) I live in a heavily wooded neighborhood
5) There are trees outside my house. There is one within 10' of the house whose canopy is between me & the near towers.

Based on my experience, anything with an LG or Samsung 5th gen or newer (LGDT330x / S5H140x) or demod performs best for me. I have 2 cards with the LGDT3303 demod ( Dvico Fusion HDTV5 Gold, BBTI AirStar-HD5000-PCI). The odd thing is that even though those cards have the same tuner & demod, the Dvico requires a stronger signal. I bought the Dvico in late 2005, and the HD5000 a year or so later.

Probably the best card I have is my Pinnacle PCTV HD Card (800i). This one has an XC5000 tuner & a samsung S5H1409 demod. This is better than the older LGs for co-channel interference. A few times a year, I completely loose our NBC station (UHF 17) due to interference from another UHF 17. The above LGs & my HDHR loose their signal lock, but my Samsung based Pinnacle keeps a solid lock and a glitch free picture.

I haven't done much more more than "play" with my UB435-Q. It has a TDA18271 tuner and a newer LGDT3304 demod. It seems to do as well at multipath as my other cards, and can pick up neighboring markets as well as my HDHR. I haven't had it configured during the UHF 17 co-channel episodes, so I cannot say how it performs there.

I retired a BBTI/TechniSat Air2PC-ATSC-PCI a while back. It had an Nxt2002 demod (an older version of what was in your AverMedia A180), and it had similar performance to the HDHR. It did very poorly for multipath and was severely impacted by bad weather.

If you're interested in a list of what components are in what popular cards, a good resource is http://linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/ATSC_Devices

Originally Posted by stanger89

The other question I have is do you have one of the older or newer design HDHRs? Because they do have two revisions with different chipsets, and the second revision ones are supposed to be better.

I have the newer design. I can't imagine how the older one must have performed..

Drew

[pjpjpjpj]

FWIW, I have two HDHRs, circa 2008. Each has a separate antenna, in my attic. One is a homemade "screen-reflected Gray-Hoverman" antenna, aimed at a city's towers that are 40 miles away. The other is a homemade non-reflected "vertical DB8" type, aimed at a city's towers (nearly 180 degrees away) that are 11 miles away.

Both HDHRs/antennas get all of the stations from their respective cities perfectly - rarely have any dropouts, artifacts, etc. In fact, the one aimed at the 11-mile-away city actually picks up two VHF stations as well (even though the DB8 is technically a UHF-only antenna).

I still maintain that, with all antenna-related stuff, there are way too many factors at play to ever claim that "this is 'BETTER' than that". Certain things are better for some people in some applications, but it's all a trial-and-error. The science of it gives you a ballpark idea (for example, using a TVFool or Antennaweb plot), but every person in every location will have a varying result.

[drewg]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

That is exactly the down side I posted (about not being able to handle higher powered signals... i.e., your 15 mile station). The point remains that a majority of users live a lot closer to 50 miles from a tower, than they do live 15 miles away.

There are 2 revisions 1012xxxx & lower = rev1, 1013xxxx & higher = rev2.
The rev1 part (Thomson DTF8640B tuner / Oren CAS220 demod) had a serious problem with higher powered signals. I specifically waited until the second revision (JINXIN UVS1805BDMW1 tuner / Micronas DRX 393yJ demod) before getting one.

BTW, I actually think its just the opposite of what you said. Most people live closer to 15 miles than 50 miles to the towers, otherwise they'd put the towers elsewhere . But maybe the majority of people clustered in urban areas use cable?

At any rate, here is holl_ands on AVSForum's antenna thread commenting on the HDHR rev2's tuner: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post18368998

INX UVS1805 series NIM "specs" (such as they are):
http://www.jx-e.com/en/Productsviwe.asp?id=39
Noise Figure < 10 and VSWR < 7 are pretty pathetic....perhaps indicative of overall performance....
UVS2605 Series has slightly better Noise Figure < 8 and VSWR < 7.
[VSWR of SEVEN!!!!! That's the worst I've ever seen in ANYTHING!!!!!]

Drew

[KeithAbbott]

I wonder what tuner SiliconDust will be using in the "new and (hopefully) improved" version of the HDHR that is coming out...

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by drewg

BTW, I actually think its just the opposite of what you said. Most people live closer to 15 miles than 50 miles to the towers, otherwise they'd put the towers elsewhere . But maybe the majority of people clustered in urban areas use cable?

I don't know.. I guess it depends on the area. I'm in the Los Angeles market... the 'urban area' is 75 miles across, with all towers on one peak at one side of the valley. That peak (mt. wilson) is about 30 miles from downtown LA. The bulk of the population is probably in the 20-45 mile range, with a large chunk (inland empire, orange county) closer to 50. The tower locations are determined here by topography, not population density. I suppose that's a lot different in midwest states and such, where there is no topography. Then, they could easily locate the towers where most the people are.

[drewg]

Originally Posted by KeithAbbott

I wonder what tuner SiliconDust will be using in the "new and (hopefully) improved" version of the HDHR that is coming out...

From the thread over on the SD forums: "The Rev3 uses two high performance MaxLinear 1GHz silicon tuners feeding two latest-gen Trident demodulators"

So it sounds like a totally different tuner (hurray), and a slightly rev'ed demod (that business was bought from Micronas by Trident).

Drew

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

I suppose that's a lot different in midwest states and such, where there is no topography. Then, they could easily locate the towers where most the people are.

Except we're a bit more spread out, so "where the most people are" isn't necessarily "closest" but to get the best coverage. So for example in my market, the towers are basically equidistant between three of the largest cities in the area, this means that very few people are within say 20 miles, the vast majority are say 20-50 miles.

[Rico66]

The HDHR is one of those tuners that I stayed away from (maybe a wrong prejudice). It started out essentially as the QAM tuner, but not so much for ATSC. One of my friends who's using it for QAM also tried it for ATSC with poor results.

Originally I went through a number of tuners, Dvico fusion, Vbox 150, Kworld 115, some cheap no-name tuner (forgot the name) that I picked-up off ebay. None of these could match my TV's tuner.

I then settled for an Avermedia 780 and a Saber DA-1N1, which both work really nice in my situation, as they pickup the roughly 30 channels (in the Seattle area). I live about 15 miles away from the closest towers, but there's a number of trees and hills around.
The Saber DA-1N1 is the best reception wise in my case, but it doesn't play 100% nicely with Sage (which is why I decided to replace it with another Avermedia card).

Bottom line is that there are so many variables depending on location, antenna etc. that you really have to try for yourself.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Except we're a bit more spread out, so "where the most people are" isn't necessarily "closest" but to get the best coverage. So for example in my market, the towers are basically equidistant between three of the largest cities in the area, this means that very few people are within say 20 miles, the vast majority are say 20-50 miles.

That was my original point - that more people live 50 miles than live 15 miles from a transmitter. If nothing else, because we're talking circular areas, there is simply more SPACE in the 50 mile range than there is in the 15 miles range.

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

That was my original point - that more people live 50 miles than live 15 miles from a transmitter. If nothing else, because we're talking circular areas, there is simply more SPACE in the 50 mile range than there is in the 15 miles range.

Well for what it is worth I live within 10 miles of mine and never have on single issue with either of my hdhomeruns. One is the first rev and one is the second. They have been the most solid tuners I have had. I have had avermedias and ATI's old hdtv wonder(terrible). The avermedia's where actually ok but still not as solid as the hdhomerun's have been for me.

[SWKerr]

I have had multi-path problems since I moved into my current house 15 years ago. (Was ghosting before HD) I have a box full of ATSC tuner cards that I have tried over the years. Really have spent too much money and effort on this problem. Ultimately it was not perfect on its own but I have had the best results from the HDHR. It is also great with low signal strength.

I live on a wooded lot surrounded by trees about 20 miles from most of the stations. I have one PBS station that is about 50 miles away as well in another direction. I have a grave yard of Antennas that I have tried to help solve this. Even tried the huge dual Yagi setup. Improvements were made but nothing worked all that well until I tried this: Winegard Model HD7210P (Ghost Killer) It does not have the range for the PBS station 50 miles away so I also have a JoinTenna and a big Yagi as well for that.

From my experience if you have a bad multi-path problem the tuner card is only going to do so much. It is all in the antenna.