What's my weak link for snappy performance?

[Tomahawk51]

If I were to invest in improving my Sage experience, where should I start? Ram, New HDs, a quad CPU, HD300?

My server is headless, dedicated to Sage (and minimally to CrashPlan for backups, maybe a DLNA serving App - which, if in use, I won't complain about Sage). In other words, the server exists to run Sage and I'd like it to do minimal other tasks to support backups.

I want to stream to 3 extenders, HD. I want to run Comskip, 2 concurrent sessions would be good, >2 would be great. It works fine now, but I notice the spinning wheel and laggy response a bit more often than I'd like.

Current Setup:
- Win 7 Home Premium 32bit (fresh for Sage, almost no non-needed SW)
- HDPVR
- HVR 2250 (QAM)
- GigE ethernet (Apple Router/DLink Switch)
- Sage v7 w/ many plugins
- HD200 (and HD100)
- 2GB Ram
- Core2Duo e4300 1.8ghz
- 2 SATA recording drives
- 1 IDE (older) system drive
- note: ancillary media on ReadyNAS

Did I miss any important details? If it's a CPU I need, should I learn how to overclock (which I read can be done "easily" with my ram and CPU and MB), or buy new. If new, any specific recommendations?

As an aside, buying a Logitech Harmony remote has given me the perception of a speed increase. I think the IR is stronger.

[wayner]

I would say that you could use more CPU for running comskip, especially when it is for your HD-PVR recordings. It would also help if you needed transcoding for Placeshifter clients.

[osx-addict]

You've got a setup similar to mine in terms of horsepower but all of my tuners are network based (using dual HDHomeRuns) -- mine is also going to be headless when I'm done with setup and tweaking.. My CPU usage on XP or W7 is <5% -- same for network usage on a gigabit link.

Any WAGs on how much CPU is needed for comskipping? I can also move to a faster CPU (core 2 duo 2.66 is max for me) -- with the current one being 1.86Ghz -- same as T-51..

[JetreL]

Ram and Processor are the two things I would recommend upgrading. Also adding additional drives to help span more platters for data IO. I didn't see if you have green drives those could be an issue as well. When I ran HDPVRs each Comskip job would saturate a CPU so this could be a point of contention for you.

I personally wouldn't recommend over-clocking your Processor. I consider it a short term gain and with HD files you need more CPU cycles not CPU processing power.

[Fuzzy]

I'd look at boosting the RAM. Especially since you're using the older drive as the system drive. Running short on RAM will cause more swapping - swapping to an older slower drive is far less efficient. For the cost of a new CPU, you could easily replace that 2GB with 4GB or more. Even if you aren't 'using' the extra RAM for Sage (maxes at about 1.5GB if you turn your java heap all the way up) and Comskip (varies, but figure 30-50MB per process), having a lot more will just provide more caching room. Comskipping while it's recording with a large cache is actually quite quick, as comskip ends up feeding off of the cached data, instead of re-reading what was just written.

Ultimately, it'd be a goal to be able to run your system, with virtual memory turned off. With enough RAM to handle what your tasks can max it out at, you can do so and get it to be VERY responsive.

[Tomahawk51]

Thanks for all the feedback.

Question asked about my HDs: They are not "green" drives, but older Seagates (400gb, 750gb).

I like your suggestion Fuzzy about starting with RAM. I have 2 slots free, so I'll go to 4gb or even 6gb total if I find a good deal. I know about the 32bit cap on RAM in Windows, and since I use FW for channel changing, this upgrade (if 6gb) may end up pushing other changes...

Finally, any thoughts on what a good bang for buck quad core CPU would be? I'm a bit novice at the system building, and wonder what my best option would be. Here's my mobo: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128012

[tmiranda]

Just to add some other thoughts:

Increase your RAM and even more importantly increase your Java Heap size. Set it to 1GB if possible (some 32-bit systems barf when it's set to 1GB so you may have to back it down a bit.)

Next, reduce the number of Plugins Almost all of them will slow down your system and add instability in one way or another.

An often overlooked factor is the network card. An Intel based NIC is almost always the best bet. Some of the others are really terrible and will wreak havoc on your network throughput. Avoid RealTec at all costs.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Tomahawk51

Finally, any thoughts on what a good bang for buck quad core CPU would be? I'm a bit novice at the system building, and wonder what my best option would be. Here's my mobo: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128012

There's really only one series of processors that are quad core, and socket 775. that's the 'Yorkfield' line (Q8300, Q8400, Q9505, Q9650, Q9550S). Prices are still steep on them running anywhere from $150 to $350. I, personally, wouldn't bother, as for the cost of the Q9505, you could probably get a newer motherboard/cpu combo that would perform as good/better. (like this 'Black edition' 3.4GHz Phenom II combo - http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboD...t=Combo.580614 )

P.S. I'm not saying you SHOULD upgrade. I'm just saying that upgrading the CPU on the older board is not the best bang for your buck. I think you'll fnid just boostnig your RAM will give you a LOT of improvement, for a lot less money. Even replacing the 1GB you've got with a new 4GB set: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820161283 for <$50.

[Tomahawk51]

Thanks a bunch. I understand the suggestion to get a new mobo & CPU before buying an older cpu.

Clarification: I have 2gb of RAM now - I saw you mention 1gb.

Have any specific advice regarding hitting the ~3.5gb limit on Win7 32bit? Should that be enough (vs my 2gbs now)? It looks like it wouldn't unreasonable for me to get to 6gb total...but is that just massive overkill (plus FW channel changing switch)?

[stanger89]

Yeah, i've kind of been wondering the same thing lately, but looking at all the usual suggestions nothing sticks out. CPU usage is non-existant, I'm using less than half of my max heap, yet I still see Sage "stop and think" for a while while navigating from time to time.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Yeah, i've kind of been wondering the same thing lately, but looking at all the usual suggestions nothing sticks out. CPU usage is non-existant, I'm using less than half of my max heap, yet I still see Sage "stop and think" for a while while navigating from time to time.

You're an unRAID user now, right? I have some archived TV recordings, and some imported videos, on my unRAID server, and I swear I get the hang-ups in Sage TV when the unRAID drive aren't spun up. I know Sage isn't suppose to need to access anything off the drive until you go to play the video, but something weird seems to be going on there.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by reggie14

You're an unRAID user now, right? I have some archived TV recordings, and some imported videos, on my unRAID server, and I swear I get the hang-ups in Sage TV when the unRAID drive aren't spun up. I know Sage isn't suppose to need to access anything off the drive until you go to play the video, but something weird seems to be going on there.

Yeah, there is that, which I do expect/understand, but I'm talking things like accessing the recordings list, which is all local, Sage is installed on an SSD, and the recordings are on Caviar Blacks...

[MrD]

Do not add more than 4gb on a 32bit system you will not use it.

Also your apps will never use memory above 2GB due to the XP design. You can make a command line change at boot to have them see 3GB but the 32bit app needs to have knowledge of that feature to work. I have no idea if the JRE has this capability.

Memory above 2GB is used by the kernel, so more of the kernel will be memory resident, though I am not sure how much that is going to improve your performance.

Also make sure the network adapter is *not* configured to go to sleep to save power.

[Spectrum]

Originally Posted by MrD

Do not add more than 4gb on a 32bit system you will not use it.

This is true

Originally Posted by MrD

Also your apps will never use memory above 2GB due to the XP design. You can make a command line change at boot to have them see 3GB but the 32bit app needs to have knowledge of that feature to work. I have no idea if the JRE has this capability.

This is semi-true, but misleading. On any Windows version 32 bit processes are limited to 2 GB of memory. This doesn't mean they use the memory from 2GB and below and reserve the rest for the kernel (see the article referenced below). For example, I built an image processing algorithm that performed a 4 dimensional transform in one step that could very easily use >>>>> 2GB of memory; if the search parameters were not constrained, it would crash whenever it tried to cross the 2GB barrier (no error checking, I was lazy) even when run on a 64 bit machine. I could run more than one instance at a time and each process would have their own memory space carved out.

Originally Posted by MrD

Memory above 2GB is used by the kernel, so more of the kernel will be memory resident, though I am not sure how much that is going to improve your performance.

Yes the kernel is limited to 2GB of memory, but that's not going to really make a difference on a single user machine. The 2 GB kernel limit is more likely to rear it's head in a terminal services environment where there are many users running applications. Each app gets its own 2GB of program memory, but ALL applications from ALL users must share the 2GB of kernel memory. The first few paragraphs of this article give a good overview of the problem.

[Tomahawk51]

I understand the point about 32bit NOT using >~3.5gb. My specific question was whether going beyond this number would improve Sage performance for me (i.e. dumping 32bit for 64bit). In other words, would I see a notably positive difference on my system running 3.5gb (or whatever gets 'recognized') vs 6gb?

From what I've read, it seems like Sage ought to be working OK within the 3ish gb range but I'd love to hear of experiences on this (to justify my upgrade path).

[Spectrum]

Yeah this thread did start drifting OT a bit Just for Sage recording, playback, comskip, etc going from x32 with 4GB to x64 6GB wouldn't make that much of a difference in performance or feel. That said, with memory prices in the dirt, if you want to try adding memory to your existing setup it would give you the best bang for your buck.

If you are looking at upgrading hardware though, it might make sense to do a reinstall to go from x32 to x64. I'm not sure what MS's stance is on licensing with Win7, I know with Vista, the key was not tied to an x32 or an x64 release, you just needed to have access to the media for whichever architecture you wanted. They have changed the licensing model with Win7 and I haven't payed attention to where things stand.

I guess my advice would be to either upgrade the RAM in the current box to 4GB and stick with x32 or upgrade MB/CPU/Memory and reload OS as x64. But that's just me

[wayner]

The only problems with 64 bit is no firewire and you may not be able to use some older tuner cards like PVR-150s.

[rgroves]

The Win7 license depends on what he purchased. I've got a 3 pack of Home Premium that I can interchange 32-bit and 64-bit. And then I've got a Win7 Pro that's a 64-bit only version. If his copy of Win7 came with a 32-bit AND a 64-bit DVD, then he can interchange the license between the two.

[Tomahawk51]

Thanks for the advice... I'm seeing good advice on sticking with a RAM upgrade, but also some compelling support to do a bigger HW upgrade.

For example, I have DDR2 ram now, and if I go with a new Mobo, it may be more likely to be DDR3 - so maybe I shouldn't invest in my current system. Anyway, this is all great advice and appreciated.

FYI: I've got access to Win7 32 and 64bit.

Part of buying Home Premium Upgrade deal prior to launch. On that note - I enjoy the 'backdoor' approach to clean installing Win7

1) Clean Install and DON'T enter license key
2) Pop in the same disc, install 'upgrade' of unactivated Win7
3) Register after the 'double install'

Although I did have success just doing the clean install, NOT activating during the install, and activating later (i.e. not needing the 2nd install). Credit to winsupersite.com.

[davephan]

Software: You could try changing your Windows 7 'visual effects' for faster performance. Start, Control Panel, Small Icons, Performance Information and Tools, Adjust Visual Effects. Select the 'Adjust for Best Performance' radio button.

Hardware: If you upgrade your CPU to an i-7 950 3.06 quad-core. They are on sale for $200 at Microcenter stores. You'd also have to change your system board. I recommend a GA-X58A-UD3R LGA 1366 X58 ATX Motherboard. I also recommend a Zalman CNPS9700 CPU cooler plus a 1366 bracket. Your memory would have to be replaced with faster DDR3 You could probably re-use your case, power supply, and video card. That hardware upgrade would probably cost around $700 - $800.

Here are some features for the Gigabyte system board: It has 10 sata drive ports, built-in RAID, 4 PCI-E slots, 2 PCI-E X1 slots, 1-PCI slot, 6 DDR3 memory slots, 1 PATA port, 1 floppy port, 4 USB-2 and 2 USB-3 ports, 1 10/100/1000 NIC. The downsides to this system board are one of the PCI-E X1 slots only works with a very short card or you need to buy a PCI-E X1 extension cable to mount a longer PCI-E X1 card elsewhere in the case to use that PCI-E X1 connection. Another downside is only one PCI slot and only one NIC instead of a dual NIC, but you might not need dual NICs.

Dave