Considering Sage TV

[Audacity]

First, some background: I live in Edmonton, Alberta (Canada) and I've had a HTPC of some sort since 2003. I was a BTV user, migrated to using Windows Media Center when Windows 7 was released (and Snapstream stopped supporting BTV), and due to limitations of using a XBOX as a extender on "other" TVs, I'm looking at Sage TV.

Here is another detail: over time, the value provided by using a DVR-style recording solution is decreasing while the value of streaming video over the internet is increasing. While customers in the US are (or will be) covered just fine when using a XBOX, I'm not. The reason is, in order for me to access Hulu in Canada I must use a VPN connection with a endpoint in the US. This is no problem for a PC, and is quick and painless to do in Windows 7 (that is, I quickly connect and disconnect from a VPN network depending on what content I wish to access). The problem starts up when I start using a XBOX as a extender. It doesn't have any VPN client facilities.

My three primary content sources are:

- OTA Recorded TV
- Netflix (Canadian version)
- Hulu (US version, there is no Canadian version)

I would be just fine if Windows Media Center had a "client" application like Beyond TV Link that I could run on a PC, but it doesn't. Sage TV does.

I looked over the Sage TV "buy software" page and was confused by all the items on it. Why can't it be simple with a "client" and a "server" option? I'd like to know what software I would need for the following configuration:

- Primary HTPC: Show Recording, Lots of storage, Access Hulu/Netflix.
- "The Den" HTPC: Watch Shows as a "client" (not much storage), Access Hulu, Netflix
- Bedroom HTPC: Watch Shows as a "client" (not much storage), Access Hulu, Netflix

I imagine I'd need the "Sage TV Media Center" product on the primary PC and the "Sage TV Client" on the secondary HTPCs, but I see other items like the MVP Client and I'm not sure what the difference between the MVP client and the "standard" Client is.

The reason why I described my specific streaming video needs is to explain why the HD Theater 300 doesn't help me. I want to have one device that will allow me to watch recorded or live TV, update recordings, as well as launch a browser with Flash or Silverlight and can connect to VPN services.

[jnmfox]

I found all the different software confusing as well, maybe they should organize things by OS and have a matrix showing the differences.

Anywho, for your set-up you would need:
For the primary HTPC- SageTV Media Center http://store.sagetv.com/mm5/merchant...tegory_Code=SS

For the other HTPCs- SageTV Client x2
http://store.sagetv.com/mm5/merchant...tegory_Code=SS

What tuners are you using for OTA?

[Audacity]

I'm using Silicondust HDHomeRuns (x2, so 4 tuners)

[jnmfox]

Originally Posted by Audacity

I'm using Silicondust HDHomeRuns (x2, so 4 tuners)

Sounds like you have your set-up well planned out. Just add the software above and you should be good to go. They have a 21 day trial if you want to try it out before dropping the $.

[Audacity]

Sounds like you have your set-up well planned out. Just add the software above and you should be good to go. They have a 21 day trial if you want to try it out before dropping the $.

Yeah, I think I'll give it a try and see how it measures up.

I considered SageTV prior to using Windows Media Center, but I was put-off by the user interface and the fact that it uses Java, which would force me to install Java on my computers which I have been able to keep Java-free for years!

My background is in software development, and my objection to Java is that in my experience Java software always seems to be, well, crap. This is certainly true for much of the "enterprise class" stuff that I deal with regularly. For exmple: Cognos, BEA, Oracle's Java-based tools, etc. Horrible stuff.

What Java offers developers is a write-once run-anywhere development platform. Unfortunately there is no free lunch and what comes with that is while you can run anywhere, every platform you run on your software is a second-class citizen which doesn't compare well to native software on that platform that can take advantage of the elements that make that platform special. I suspect that it's the Java issue that caused Sage TV to be behind in the UI department. I don't think the Sage TV UI developers are worse than the Windows Media Center UI developers, they just had the handicap of working with tools that are built around the lowest common denominator.

So, while I'm expecting a step-down from a UI perspective, I hear Sage TV 7 is much better than 6. At the end of the day it'll be worth moving to using "extenders" that can run a browser because I find myself watching Netflix and Hulu more than I am watching recorded TV.

[jnmfox]

My one complaint about Sage has been no native Netflix implementation so we are forced to fire-up the PS3.

To improve the look and feel of Sage check-out Diamond:
http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=50

I also use Sage MyMovies:
http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=48

and TVExplorer:
http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53531

There are a lot of great user created plug-ins to increase the look and functionality of Sage.

[Audacity]

I'll certainly check out the plugins.

I realized a couple months ago that trying to get everything like Hulu and Netflix to work well on a HTPC, and needing some sort of custom interface/hack was because those interfaces were designed to be mouse-driven, not remote control driven.

I looked around, purchased a quite a few input peripherals, and eventually discovered The Loop, and with a few tweaks I ended up with a very friendly interface for using mouse-oriented software in a HTPC setting.

So, my plan for all the streaming video sites is to use a browser (both Google Chrome and Kylo are solid choices, especially now that Google Chrome has a "default zoom level" option), and only launch the Sage TV client app if I actually want to watch recorded or live TV (which isn't happening as much anymore).

One cute YouTube interface that I discovered a few months ago was http://www.youtube.com/leanback - YouTube for HTPCs! A lot of companies are working on making devices like the XBOX, PS3, Boxee Box, Google TV, Apple TV (etc, etc) able to watch TV and view lots of video sources, but at the end of the day a HTPC with a browser is much more powerful (and doesn't get blocked by the content companies).

If you install a Sage TV plugin on the server, do all the client machines automatically use it - like how plugins work in Windows Media Center? I know it's not using RDP or anything, but I'm just wondering if configuration data is stored on the server and used by all clients.

[jnmfox]

I use a single HD300 for my client so I haven’t experienced using multiple clients but the plug-ins I install on the server are used by the HD300. From my understanding you can have different settings on each client and enable/disable the plug-ins as needed.

Maybe someone with more Sage experience and a multiple client set-up can give you a more detailed answer.

[Spectrum]

Client runs everything locally so plugins have to be installed at each location. The UI for extenders and Placeshifter is actually run on ther server so the plugins only have to be installed on the server.

Since you will be using Client, if you are planning on using comskip or show analyzer make sure to set up all your recording/import directories using UNC paths or make sure the drive letters are mapped the same on every system or the comskip playback plugin won't be able to locate the skip files.

[mayamaniac]

MVP extenders are old products and only supports SD. The new extender is called the HD300, and it supports SD and HD. It is a small dedicated hardware client that connects to the SageTV server and plays almost anything media formats you have. The SageTV Client is like BTV Link.

Netflix and Hulu aren't officially supported, if these are important to you, then stick with your HTPCs running SageTV client. There's a PlayOn plugin that allows streaming Netflix/Hulu to SageTV clients and extenders, but your miliage will vary as it is not the best solution.

[Audacity]

Thanks for the many replies!

Last night I installed SageTV on my primary HTPC, and configured it to use a HDHR (the latest rev3 model). The bizarre thing was that the signal strength was showing up as 0% in SageTV yet at the same time it was showing up as 100% signal strength, 100% signal quality, 100% symbol quality, in the HDHR Config GUI app.

That said, apparently there is a software/firmware bug that needs to be fixed with the HDHR3. I'll investigate that tonight.

Aside from not being able to watch TV signals via the HDHR3, the SageTV setup was pretty smooth. The Sage v7 UI is better than when I last looked at it (v6 in 2009). Unless I'm unable to resolve this problem for some bizzare reason, I'm probably going to migrate to SageTV. I'm pretty determined to use PCs instead of XBOXes for my other TVs.

[davephan]

Don't waste you money on MVP units. The quality, both audio and video is drastically inferior to the HD-200 or HD-300 media extenders. The HD-200 and HD-300 work with either SD or HD TVs.

Make sure to take an image of your computer before installation the SageTV trial software, or any trial software. If you have installation problems, the trial may end before the 21 days is up and you'll have to wait for a future version before you can have the trial again.

You should also be taking periodic images of your computers regardless if SageTV is used or not. The computer for SageTV will quickly become a 'critical' computer, especially if others are using SageTV in your household. You will need to be able to very quickly recover the computer back to a point in time when everything worked, if you have problems. You can also isolate hardware problems if you can recover to a 'known good' point in time, and the problems still exist.

You will need 'PlayOn' softare for Netflix streaming to work with SageTV.


Dave

[Audacity]

I have Windows Home Server backing up the OS disk of my HTPCs, so I'm good as far as backups go.

On the topic of PlayOn, I actually played around with it last week, and it was the poor quality of video that I ended up with when streaming the video to my XBOX that made me decide to stick with PCs which can connect to Hulu directly. I'm going to use Sage, but I'll only use Sage for recorded TV and playing back MKV and AVI files of ripped movies, and for the streaming video stuff I'm going to use a browser on the HTPCs.

[bits]

Originally Posted by Audacity

I have Windows Home Server backing up the OS disk of my HTPCs, so I'm good as far as backups go.

On the topic of PlayOn, I actually played around with it last week, and it was the poor quality of video that I ended up with when streaming the video to my XBOX that made me decide to stick with PCs which can connect to Hulu directly. I'm going to use Sage, but I'll only use Sage for recorded TV and playing back MKV and AVI files of ripped movies, and for the streaming video stuff I'm going to use a browser on the HTPCs.

I would suggest that you consider a ROKU for playing Hulu vs using HTPC. Sage HD300 + ROKU should get you everything you want and would be cheaper and simplier not to mention a much better form factor than HTPC.

[Audacity]

I would suggest that you consider a ROKU for playing Hulu vs using HTPC. Sage HD300 + ROKU should get you everything you want and would be cheaper and simplier not to mention a much better form factor than HTPC.

1. I live in Canada, so the Roku won't work for Hulu because it doesn't have VPN client capabilities. Hulu uses GeoIP checking, so I need to look like I'm coming from a IP in the USA. Also, I'd need Hulu Plus in order to use it from a Roku.

2. My bedroom HTPC is Dell Studio Hyrbid, so the form factor is pretty good. Plus I already own them (I was using them from BTV Link machines in the past) so the variable cost is low.

That said, I'm not very price sensitive. I'm more interested in something that will actually work, and I'd prefer a single device. My primary interest in SageTV is that it allows me to ditch the "other device" (which in my case is the XBOX 360).

[KeithAbbott]

Originally Posted by Audacity

Last night I installed SageTV on my primary HTPC, and configured it to use a HDHR (the latest rev3 model). The bizarre thing was that the signal strength was showing up as 0% in SageTV yet at the same time it was showing up as 100% signal strength, 100% signal quality, 100% symbol quality, in the HDHR Config GUI app.

That said, apparently there is a software/firmware bug that needs to be fixed with the HDHR3. I'll investigate that tonight.

I set my brand-new HDHR3 up on Wednesday night, it's working fine. At one point, I was getting the 0% like you described, but I think the tuner was actually in use by another application or client. I think I power-cycled the HDHR3, and everything worked fine afterwards.

[Audacity]

Originally Posted by KeithAbbott

I set my brand-new HDHR3 up on Wednesday night, it's working fine. At one point, I was getting the 0% like you described, but I think the tuner was actually in use by another application or client. I think I power-cycled the HDHR3, and everything worked fine afterwards.

Yeah, I installed my HDHR3 on Wednesday night too and configured it for 7MC, but it wasn't in use when I was doing these tests. From the HDHR app I could click the "view" button and watch TV on either tuner.

A couple things that I'm going to test:

- Install the drivers from the CD that came with the device. I was just using the (up to date) drivers that I was using with my older HDHR (the one that 7MC is using).

- Completely disable 7MC while testing SageTV. I'm not sure this would do anything because it's not configured to use that specific HDHR.

- Install the updates from SiliconDust that they are apparently going to release today.

I'll also try your suggestion to power cycle the HDHR. I've never had to power cycle my old HDHR (I imagine having it plugged into a UPS helps with this), so I didn't think of trying a power cycle with the new one.

[KeithAbbott]

Originally Posted by Audacity

- Install the drivers from the CD that came with the device. I was just using the (up to date) drivers that I was using with my older HDHR (the one that 7MC is using).

Just for reference, I'm using the 20100828 drivers.

[Audacity]

Originally Posted by KeithAbbott

Just for reference, I'm using the 20100828 drivers.

Yeah, that is the same version that I was using. Oh well.

[gplasky]

Check out the beta drivers on Silicondust. There are some HDHR3 fixes.

Gerry