Considering Sage TV

[Audacity]

I have a question about the SageTV Placeshifter app. It appears to use Java (ugh!) and I figure this is the sort of app that would make sense to use a Flash (or Silverlight) front end and use it in a web interface. Maybe with HTML5 <video> you could even do a HTML-only version of it.

I think Snapstream had the right idea here with their web interface. Isn't using a thick client like Java a step backwards from what the "use this anywhere" design goals?

[trallyus]

Originally Posted by jnmfox

I found all the different software confusing as well, maybe they should organize things by OS and have a matrix showing the differences.

Anywho, for your set-up you would need:
For the primary HTPC- SageTV Media Center http://store.sagetv.com/mm5/merchant...tegory_Code=SS

For the other HTPCs- SageTV Client x2
http://store.sagetv.com/mm5/merchant...tegory_Code=SS

What tuners are you using for OTA?

They do have a matrix showing some of what you want at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari...tware_packages

Trallyus

[gplasky]

Seeing that Placeshifter runs on Windows, Linux and Mac it wouldn't appear to be a step backwards. Plus the intent of Placeshifter is to use that when you are away from home and stream your recordings over the Internet. If you want a true client that will also play ripped DVDs you want the SageTV PC client. Not Placeshifter. It's won't handle ripped DVDs.

Gerry

[Audacity]

Originally Posted by gplasky

Seeing that Placeshifter runs on Windows, Linux and Mac it wouldn't appear to be a step backwards. Plus the intent of Placeshifter is to use that when you are away from home and stream your recordings over the Internet.

Both HTML and Flash have greater reach than Java, and it wouldn't require a local software "footprint" over and above what is already installed on a machine capable of browsing the web.

This is why I implied that HTML5 > Flash > Silverlight > Java. HTML5 can run on all devices (even iOS), Flash can run on Android smartphones and tablets as well as all the platforms you listed above. Silverlight is still better than Java because at least it runs in your browser and gets deployed via Windows Update on the Microsoft side of the fence (and is available for Mac/Linux) and wouldn't have any additional software footprint.

If you get a new machine with a fresh OS install and want to use Placeshifter you'd need admin on that machine in order to get not only the Placeshifter software, but also the Java runtime.

One good explanation would be that Sage made the technology platform decision for Placeshifter prior to Flash video being ubiquitous. If I were them I'd re-visit that decision and see if I could make a web-based Placeshifter interface using HTML5 <video> and play to the hip iOS crowd.

[gplasky]

There is already a working solution for Sage on both the iPhone/iPod/iPad platform and I am using the Sage solution for Android. Both are provided by a third party developer. As you said Sage was created well before any of the other solutions.

And as you also know Flash and Silverlight needs to be installed and updated just like java. And java also works thru the browser.

HTML5 is a new standard that also needs to have the video redefined to use. There is no single combination of containers and codecs that works in all HTML5 browsers. This is not likely to change in the near future.To make your video watchable across all of these devices and platforms, you’re going to need to encode your video more than once.

All solutions come with their own set of quirks that need to be addressed between the platforms.

Gerry

[Audacity]

Originally Posted by gplasky

And as you also know Flash and Silverlight needs to be installed and updated just like java. And java also works thru the browser.

Yes, but Flash more widely deployed than Java. I'd speculate this is due to websites frequently using Flash and there being very few client applications written in Java. Thus, if an organization doesn't have any Java software then they won't install the runtime because doing so increases the surface area open to attackers.

I have yet to see something written for JavaFX where I see stuff built for Flash on a daily basis.

For example, if you drop in on some random internet cafe, it is almost a certainty that Flash is installed. This is not so with Java.

Finally, even if you did find a internet cafe that did have a Java runtime installed, you wouldn't be permitted to install more software locally.

Originally Posted by gplasky

HTML5 is a new standard that also needs to have the video redefined to use. There is no single combination of containers and codecs that works in all HTML5 browsers.

So what? Since the system is going to have to do real-time transcoding from MPEG2 anyway, just support both camps (specifically the h.264 and Web-M camps). The codecs themselves are available as off-the-shelf software components (x264, Web-M) and with a modular software design there wouldn't be much replicated code.

Sure, it would be slightly easier if there was only one codec, and HTML5 is new. The reach afforded by this platform brings a lot of value to the table. The near universal support by all browsers/platforms is something that Java cannot provide. Another problem is that going forward (with Oracle) I don't think Java's future is very bright.

Anyway, this should probably be a separate thread and I shouldn't have brought it up here, my bad. I see a lot of potential with the Placeshifter concept, but the execution of the existing product prevents it's use with my iPad and that is why I'm making this comment/suggestion.

In a few hours I'll have another crack at the HDHR + SageTV configuration, I'll report back here.

[mayamaniac]

SageTV server and clients are java apps, and I don't think that will ever change, so there's no point in talking about changing it.

There is a web (interface) server plugin that lets you stream media to your web browser. You don't need java/flash/silverlight installed on the computer to access it.

[Spectrum]

Maya beat me to it, but all Sage applications are written in Java. It would actually have been lot of work to develop for another platform. As it stands, they have a large codebase they can re-use in the PS application.

[Audacity]

After updating everything I discovered what my problem was regarding the HDHR tuner issue - one of the tuners I accidentally configured as a analog tuner rather than a digital tuner. Fixing that fixed everything else.

I ran into the whole "updating Java without stopping the SageTV service problem", and boy is it confusing which Java runtime you're supposed to download, especially when following the link provided by the Sage tech support documentation. This was especially true after installing Java 6 update 24 and running Sage and it complaining that I wasn't running Java 1.4.

Oh well. After getting rid of all the Java software on my PCs 8 years ago and not running into any software that required it, I'm feeling a little frustrated by having to take this step backwards. I'll rationalize it by figuring that I'll run SageTV until streaming video via the internet meets all my TV needs, or until Microsoft releases something like SoftSled.

On my bedroom HTPC, I'm getting quite a few dropped frames on the Dell Studio Hybrid machine. I'm somewhat surprised by this because I figured a Core 2 Duo based machine should be able to take care of whatever MPEG2 decoding tasks I could possibly throw at it, even if it is HD, but that apparently isn't the case. Odd.

[mayamaniac]

We get it, you don't like Java and feel it is inferior to other platforms. But as I said, SageTV is not going to change, it will always be a Java app. So get over it if you decide to stick with SageTV.

As for Java version, I just run whatever version that came with the SageTV installer. And I never update it unless an updated SageTV installer does it. This seems to work well for me over the years.

Dropped frames can be affected by many factor depending on your video settings in SageTV. In the SageTV "Detailed Setup" section, under "Video/Audio", list your settings there, such as what video renderers are you using, Overlay, VMR9, EVR?

[KeithAbbott]

Originally Posted by Audacity

I ran into the whole "updating Java without stopping the SageTV service problem", and boy is it confusing which Java runtime you're supposed to download, especially when following the link provided by the Sage tech support documentation. This was especially true after installing Java 6 update 24 and running Sage and it complaining that I wasn't running Java 1.4.

I've been running Java 1.6.0_23 for quite some time on my production SageTV server, without any issues. Where are you seeing that Sage requires Java 1.4?

[Audacity]

Originally Posted by KeithAbbott

I've been running Java 1.6.0_23 for quite some time on my production SageTV server, without any issues. Where are you seeing that Sage requires Java 1.4?

Initially when I was having issues getting the tuner to work (that turned out to be the analog vs digital tuner setting) I was updating software (like the HDHR software/firmware), and because the Java updater kept on popping up messages that it should be updated I updated that too. I had closed SageTV, but I had forgotten about the service.

After the Java update Sage wouldn't run, giving some Java exception. I rebooted and it still wouldn't work. I looked at the Sage TV troubleshooting guide and it said that I needed to uninstall/reinstall Java. I did the uninstall/reinstall and then Sage was giving me an error about needing Java 1.4. It required another reboot before SageTV would work again.

I'm torn between disabling the Java update system tray tool and not having to deal with it or keeping Java up to date. In my previous job I was on the electronic security team at a big oil company and I remember seeing a large number of security issues with Java runtimes and keeping them all up-to-date and keeping my computer more secure.

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

Dropped frames can be affected by many factor depending on your video settings in SageTV. In the SageTV "Detailed Setup" section, under "Video/Audio", list your settings there, such as what video renderers are you using, Overlay, VMR9, EVR?

Video Renderer: EVR

MPEG2 Video Decoder Filter: SageTV MPEG Video Decoder

SageTV MPEG Video Decoder uses DXVA (hardware acceleration): Yes

H.264 Video Decoder Filter: Default

VC-1 Video Decoder Filter: Default

Media Player for non-MPEG files: DirectShow

DSCaler Deinterlacing Filter: (it's disabled)

Audio Renderer: Default

MPEG2 Audio Decoder Filter: SageTV MPEG Audio Decoder

HD Audio Decoder Filter: Default

Audio Playbakc Delay (ms): 0

HD Audio Output: Disabled

edit: I should also add that when the video is dropping frames that audio is stuttering. The connection from the SageTV Client to the SageTV server is going through a gigabit Ethernet switch. Playback on the main SageTV device is great.

[jptheripper]

Just so you know.

W3C has said don't use html5, since the "standard" isnt standard yet.

The W3C says developers should avoid the draft HTML5 spec (the final version is not due for several years) because of interoperability issues across browsers

Flash is terrible. End of story. The biggest bloat/security hole in existence.

Silverlight? really? okay.. (and i am a M$ whore..and still, terrible stolen idea with terrible implementation).

so..

Java>Silverlight>Flash>HTML5(until finalized in YEARS).

revisit in 2015 and maybe Java>HTML5 with FLASH gone (Abode already converting to html5) and Silverlight gone (lack of development/performance issues).

[Audacity]

So I did the obvious thing and changed the Video Renderer to VMR9 and the stuttering went away. Thanks for pointing out where the relevant settings are though!

[tmiranda]

Sage7 needs Java 1.6. It will not work with Java 1.4. Where did you see links taking you to Java 1.4? That needs to be fixed

[Audacity]

Originally Posted by jptheripper

W3C has said don't use html5, since the "standard" isnt standard yet.

That quote is from last summer and you need to take it in context, at the time they anticipated it being "ready" (in their opinion) in a years time, which is almost now.

HTML5 isn't "one big thing", it is a collection of a number of incremental improvements and additions to HTML4, and it also comes with a series of improvements to Javascript. Many of those items aren't ready yet (e.g. web sockets, local storage), and some are ready to go in the latest released (non beta) versions of all the major browsers (e.g. the <video> tag). I think it's pretty silly to say that the features that are widely implemented and at this point are not going to change aren't "ready".

Originally Posted by jptheripper

Flash is terrible. End of story. The biggest bloat/security hole in existence.

Sure, but it's better and more widely deployed (and developed for) than JavaFX. If you're worried about security in Flash, use Chrome. It sandboxes the Flash plugin.

Originally Posted by jptheripper

Silverlight? really? okay.. (and i am a M$ whore..and still, terrible stolen idea with terrible implementation).

From a technical perspective I think Silverlight is superior to Flash, but it isn't as widely deployed and used by very few websites (Netflix is one of the notable exceptions). That said, it's streaming video support and hardware accelerated video rendering is outstanding. Do you have any technical complaints about Silverlight deficiencies that you would like to articulate?

Originally Posted by jptheripper

revisit in 2015 and maybe Java>HTML5 with FLASH gone (Abode already converting to html5) and Silverlight gone (lack of development/performance issues).

Seriously? You think Java under Oracle is going to out-live flash in the consumer space?

[graywolf]

I'm torn between disabling the Java update system tray tool and not having to deal with it or keeping Java up to date. In my previous job I was on the electronic security team at a big oil company and I remember seeing a large number of security issues with Java runtimes and keeping them all up-to-date and keeping my computer more secure.

you do not want java to update itself while sage is running (program or service mode).

have read many folks encountering strange problems when that happens.

safest is if you want to keep java up to date, go ahead and do it manually, making sure you stop sage first.

[Audacity]

Originally Posted by tmiranda

Sage7 needs Java 1.6. It will not work with Java 1.4. Where did you see links taking you to Java 1.4? That needs to be fixed

The troubleshooing pages:

http://sage.tv/troubleshooting.html

They link here: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/download.html

And the SageTV software itself says it needs 1.4 when it cannot find Java in the PATH or something (post install but before I did the final reboot in my little experience). That error message would be in the SageTV code somewhere. Probably some try/catch that gets fired when Sage is loading.

[graywolf]

looks like some of those links/info is out of date.
to be fair, they do say install the latest version of java

[Audacity]

looks like some of those links/info is out of date.
to be fair, they do say install the latest version of java

Right, but the reason why I was confused was that after installing Java 1.6, SageTV gave the error message that it needed 1.4. Actually it turned out that what it really needed is a reboot, but since the Java installer didn't ask for a reboot I didn't reboot right away.

Ever since I started using Windows 2000 (almost 12 years ago now, how time files!) I haven't been in the mode to "reboot computer after you install new software" unless the installer specifically asks for the reboot.