Come Back to SageTV - Open Source in "Near" Future

[jchiso]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

I'm just going by the specs. For H.264 video the Pi and HD100 are good to Advanced Profile Level 4.0 whereas the HD200 and HD300 are good to Advanced Profile Level 4.1. Not a huge difference but enough of one.

Looks like the max bitrate of 4.1 is 2.5 times that of 4.0, so the difference is significant. I would guess that chip pricing difference between those levels would be even more dramatic ...

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

It effectively says "all of you people talking here about reviving the extender are wasting your time on something worthless".

I really have no idea how you got that out of this:

I really hope you're wrong. If the primary thing which comes out of open sourcing Sage is extender availability, then I'll be finishing my switchover to Kodi and calling it quits with Sage. In that case, it may as well still be proprietary as there will be no evolution of the software and it would still essentially be a dead product.

At least in my mind, that's not even close to what you summed it up into and it's absolutely not what I meant. Did you perhaps lump me into the few people in the thread implying that extenders aren't necessary and folks should move to PC clients? No matter...

I fully realize (and may have even written that) this announcement is only a few days old, so it's too early to say what will come of this. But, again, my current concern is that there are tons of ideas floating around, but no one stating that they have the skills and motivation to take on any of them. Until that changes, I'll remain cautiously optimistic.

I'm a realist; I see a glass containing water and air.

No harsh feelings, I love this place and all of the contributors, to whom I owe a great, great deal of gratitude and whom have provided me with great WAF. And it's very clear (as I pointed out in my post) that there are PLENTY of other things people have planned besides a possible revival of extenders, so no worries.

Glad to hear it. Nothing to see here. Move along...

[trk2]

Originally Posted by jchiso

My point was that the hardware of the Pi is as capable as an HD-300 (HD-100, or HD-200) as a playback device.

I may be missing something here, but where is the content that plays on an HD-300 that won't play on a Pi?

The content that Pi won't play is HD Audio. That would be a significant step back from the HD300. The Pi is simply not as capable as an HD300.

Now, I think it would be great to have the Pi as a cheap extender for applications that don't require HD Audio. But the Pi shouldn't be pushed as a replacement for an HD300, because it isn't.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by emveepee

If that relatively simple feature couldn't have been added over the last couple of years why does anyone expect that open source alone will cause the future of SageTV to be so bright? I'll post a separate post about extenders since I can give some incite into that but thus far in the thread I am not as optimistic as many of the users here. It's too bad the name MythTV has already been taken.

I admit to being caught up in the excitement, and I remain hopeful for the future, but that said...

I am really not expecting anything. I am skeptical that there will be a development community sprout up around open source SageTV. Thinking seriously about it now, Sage was always a niche product within the HTPC community with most people preferring WMC or XBMC because they were "prettier". We've had some fantastic devs in the community, but I'm not sure we've had enough for a project the scale of SageTV to be self sustaining.

Originally Posted by jchiso

But these pronouncements are not true. I have three HD-300s, 2 HD-200s, and a number of other platforms on which I've run Kodi/XBMC. The HDMI video output of the Pi is every bit as capable as the SageTV extenders for OTA HD (720p and 1080i), h.264 1080p and 720p , and 480i DVD rips.

They may not be capable of playing 4K, or other processor-intensive formats, but to say their performance is inferior to the HD-300 is misleading ...

On the one hand I agree, but overall I still disagree, let me explain. The biggest issue I have with all of these options is the video processing, and here's where I agree, it is poor on everything. It's poor on the extenders, it's poor on my Intel XBMC machines, it's (very) poor in XBMC/Kodi in general.

But that's where I start to disagree, the SageTV extenders have an (exclusive to my knowledge) feature in this category, and that's native resolution switching. They switch to 480i for 480i content, 720p for 720p content, 1080i, etc. This means you can bypass the poor video processing in the extenders and use something good, like an external video processor.

This means the overall video quality from a SageTV extender based system is superior to that of the XBMC/Kodi based systems, unless your source content happens to match the resolution of your display.

Now nVidia based hardware might be better due to nVidia's better linux drivers, but that starts getting a lot more expensive.

[firenice]

Thanks Jeff

I am truly glad to hear SageTV will be around to enjoy for more time to come.

As for feature request and, or a wish list, I would say that maintaining the core at this point would be the place to start. Me and my family have enjoyed Sage for several years starting at version 6 on XP and progressing through a home server and then on to windows 8.1 and it has been rock solid. Lately I have been hesitant to breath while opening Sage because of the likelihood of corrupting my Wiz.bin or updating something else that is going to kill my Sage install. I expected that any day I would open it or view the forum to find out that the plug was pulled and we have x days to make our decision about a replacement.

While all other forms of media consumption are available, and I have tried a few, Sage has always been there as my go to media recording and viewing source. Other platforms and devices, while you can never have enough, have always taken second place because of the extreme learning curves and or time limitations for setting up a system that didn't constantly need tweaks or outright hacks to keep going.

Sage out of the box was and is a solid product and now that it will be open source maybe it will become more so since updating the core to work with the latest Windows, Linux and Macs would cover 97% of the user base and I'm sure with all the talented people I've seen with plugin developers and in other open source communities the other devices will follow quickly.

Thanks again Jeff.

Mike

[SHS]

Originally Posted by jchiso

I don't know what you're trying to say here, but I don't understand your points about multi-channel audio. The Pi has no problems with 5.1 via AC3 or DTS. My points of reference are (HD)TV- and DVD-grade sources. Passthrough implementation with Kodi is simple and straightforward: much easier than accomplishing the same with SageTV ...

The point was multi-channel audio may not work always on all receiver with HDMI where left with no chose but to use Optical Audio out.

[jchiso]

Originally Posted by SHS

The point was multi-channel audio may not work always on all receiver with HDMI where left with no chose but to use Optical Audio out.

This has nothing to do with the source hardware. 5.1-channel AC-3 and DTS passthrough are fully supported on the Pi ...

[SHS]

Originally Posted by jchiso

This has nothing to do with the source hardware. 5.1-channel AC-3 and DTS passthrough are fully supported on the Pi ...

Just because something is support that dose always mean it compatible with other device , I know the Pi is a good device.

[ckewinjones]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

... there are tons of ideas floating around, but no one stating that they have the skills and motivation to take on any of them.

That is hardly surprising given that the announcement is only a few days old. I don't think the engineering team for Sage as a company was all that large, and I don't think the community that supports the open source Sage project needs to be huge, either. Of course there should be more OS developers than there were commercial developers, given that few or none of us can work on it full-time.

What is needed is a handful of folks (2-3) who are committed to the project and know the Sage architecture well (or can learn it), and can manage the development infrastructure (source control, defect reporting, the release process, etc); and a wider group of developers (perhaps a dozen or more) with skills and interest in particular areas who can make significant contributions. Such a group, backed up by Jeff if he is willing to serve as an occasional consultant, could certainly support the product and move it forward. But I would not expect the project group to coalesce instantly just because Jeff announces that SageTV will be open-sourced "soon."

For what it is worth, I will throw my own hat in the ring: I don't have any particular knowledge or expertise in video or audio stuff, but I am willing to learn. And I have nearly 30 years' experience in software engineering on many platforms and many languages. I have perhaps a dozen years' experience with Java (and twice that with C / C++), and I've done applications software, low-level network protocols, device drivers, and embedded graphics rendering. I'm willing to take on whatever role in supporting open-source SageTV that is needed and that I am capable of.

I'll be shocked if there aren't plenty of developers willing to be involved and give this great product a new lease on life.

[blade]

Number one on my list would be some sort of cable card support.

Since online streaming seems to be such a popular topic I have to say if streaming services are going to become more integrated I'd love to see Sage be able to manage the content sort of like it does for recordings. My favorite thing about a DVR is that by setting up a favorite when I want to watch something the episodes I haven't watched are right there in a list sorted by original air date. I don't have to check multiple online streaming services for the show I want to watch and then sift through episodes to determine the ones I have and haven't watched. Honestly I sometimes forget about shows until the new season begins and the episodes show up in my recordings so it's doubtful I'm going to remember all of the shows I watch and where to find them online.

[tmiranda]

Originally Posted by ckewinjones

...
For what it is worth, I will throw my own hat in the ring: I don't have any particular knowledge or expertise in video or audio stuff, but I am willing to learn. And I have nearly 30 years' experience in software engineering on many platforms and many languages. I have perhaps a dozen years' experience with Java (and twice that with C / C++), and I've done applications software, low-level network protocols, device drivers, and embedded graphics rendering. I'm willing to take on whatever role in supporting open-source SageTV that is needed and that I am capable of.

I'll be shocked if there aren't plenty of developers willing to be involved and give this great product a new lease on life.

With that kind of experience you won't have much difficulty learning the Sage architecture. Once you learn some basic concepts it's not that difficult at all. I hope there are lots of people like you who dive in and contribute.

[valnar]

Originally Posted by ckewinjones

For what it is worth, I will throw my own hat in the ring

Without the source code being out yet, I am excited that you and others are already stepping up. I so wish I had programming experience to assist. Sage has been an important part of my life for so many years. I'm glad it will continue.

[pjpjpjpj]

The other thing which hasn't been mentioned much here is that, though many of the long-time devs have left and may not come back, we may see a handful of new ones. The core group of most-active devs (people who developed the most-used plugins, had thousands of posts here, spent thousands of hours supporting their work and helping people) has always been somewhat in flux; some long-time guys who did amazing work in the <v4 through v6 era disappeared during the v7 era... likewise, some of the guys who wrote and support some of the more popular current plugins only joined during the v7 era. I think we've probably become jaded since Sage went dormant, thinking no one new would ever join again (and why would they have?). But now, it's possible that some "new blood" may come on board, and they may be very talented folks. We'll see.

[webwalker]

From Jeff, aka Narflex:
http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61987

This is the best news I've had this year!

Instead of a bundle of new features, what would you prioritize for back items that we haven't been able to work on that would be back on the docket if we had access to the source? What are some features that can go, having outlived their usefulness?

Here's my shortlist:

Fixup: Music. Even my 10 year old Ipod can handle gapless playback for when I'm listening to something like Album Oriented Rock: Yes, Pink Floyd, The Beatles (Sgt PPr, Abby Road Bside.

Improved Comskip (and other Ad-skip engines) integration.

XBMC integration: Yes, Kodi has a SageTV plugin, but its only for the PVR portion. What if you could drop into the SageTV plugin, and only leave the plugin for radical stuff that is only available in another Kodi plugin, or something completely different. My HD-200 is on its last kneecaps, with the RGB ports and one of the PCM ports having failed. If my HDMI port gives up the ghost, I'm humped.

Better text entry: because T9 sucks.

Retire:

I never much used the weather. I don't usually need to know what the temp is outdoors NOW. I need to know what its going to be.


What's on your wish list?

webwalker

* merged *

[Pirin]

I saw Narflex's post about SageTV going open source. I can't post to the Announcement thread, so I decided to ask in here. Do you think this includes the source to the Extenders? It would be great if that code could be ported over to other hardware, since the HD100/200/300s are no longer being manufactured.

I am not specifically interested in the stand-alone mode, just the "client" mode.

* merged; see previous comment on this here

[pjpjpjpj]

Originally Posted by webwalker

I never much used the weather. I don't usually need to know what the temp is outdoors NOW. I need to know what its going to be.

Have you updated to the latest weather (which is, admittedly, broken right now)? It has a detailed long-range forecast, radar, and the ability to enter up to four locations that can easily be switched between.

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

Have you updated to the latest weather (which is, admittedly, broken right now)? It has a detailed long-range forecast, radar, and the ability to enter up to four locations that can easily be switched between.

Technically the old Weather.com works for me on my extender the forecast and current conditions anyway. Some of the graphics on the page show "null" (Weather.com logo I believe maybe another non-essential logo). But the "Sunny sky" graphic and other conditions appear to work on my extender - standalone mode. So if role back the code in the GUI to not force you to use the Weather Underground you might still get weather showing up - me I just reboot the extender since I don't have it auto connect and check there.

[ckewinjones]

Originally Posted by Pirin

I saw [URL="http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61987"]Do you think this includes the source to the Extenders?

I doubt it. The Sigma Designs platform that the extender is built on is proprietary, and I should imagine that the platform API is subject to a non-disclosure agreement (NDA). While Google of course owns the extender source code (and has the right to open-source it), they would have to be very careful indeed to avoid breaking the NDA if they were to release their source code.

I'd actually be surprised if the extender source code would be all that useful. Without the Sigma Designs platform, the only thing that could be done is to implement an extender on some other platform. Whatever that other platform is, its API would probably be different enough from Sigma Designs that the Sigma-specific extender code would be close to useless.

[Pirin]

Originally Posted by Wayneb

Answering my own question, the new VTEN does do 4K.
http://www.cloudmedia.com/products/popcornhour/vten

They also have something called the Open Hour Chameleon. Looks to have 4K output and is made to load your own OS build on it ("you are free to boot to any RK3288 SOC-supported OS of your choice"). If an extender image could be built for this target OS, it may be the HD-300 contender???

[Deacon Crusher]

IS THIS the HUGE NEWS I think it is?

I hope this excites and revitalizes the Sage world.

I'm psyched.

* merged *