Milestones

[gary201]

Has there been much thought yet in the development of a set of milestones for the direction of the project?

I see numerous people doing a lot of work, but I haven't seen anything yet that outlines the project road map or goals along with possible timelines (which at this point might just be a bit of a SWAG, but nevertheless useful).

Off the top of my head, I can come up with probably the two most significant major milestones that the "average" user would really be interested in. The first would be the point where it is recommended the average user could safely upgrade to v9 (e.g. a specific set of changes yet to be made, then likely a code freeze for testing/bug fixing, then a release).

Another would be the point where it would be possible to install directly to v9 w/o stepping through v7 first. The same things apply here, a specific set of changes, a code freeze for testing/bug fixing, and a release.

I fear that unless someone defines a road map and a specific set of milestones to be achieved for this project (and a suggested goal), it'll forever be just a bunch of people doing their own thing.

[nyplayer]

The biggest milestone for me has been the developing of the Android Client. I am not a Linux user and most of the work appears to been done in getting a Linux server and miniclient.

[Fuzzy]

I tend to agree that a proper installer is the next major milestone - I for one, however, have had little time to even investigate how to even build an installer - I'm thinking it is something that SHOULD be relatively simple to do. I think many have been waiting on a few of the 'quirks' to get worked out, and really it wasn't even an option to make an installer until all the native libraries and launchers were up and sorted (which I believe they are now).

[dougfoot]

From an average user perspective the milestones that are of most interest to me are:
1) Native installer for v9 of SageTV
2) Native support for cable card tuners (Huappauge, Ceton InfiniTV, Silicondust)

[gary201]

It's sounding like I was right, that nobody has really given much thought to outlining a road map for this project then. What I think would be useful, and I'm offering this as a suggested starting point, is the creation of the following milestones/goals.

1 - Initial "upgrade" release - The first release point performed through an upgrade from v7. The definition of this milestone would include a list of specific bugs to be fixed and list of specific new features to be added for this release point. What the target version number would be for this release point. A more formal upgrade process/guide for the "average" user to follow.

To that end, maybe a wiki would be a useful tool to help in this effort (e.g. online documentation rather than a downloadable document or having everyone wade through through loads of message threads).

2 - Initial "new install" release - The first point where a new installation can be made directly without installing v7. The definition of this milestone would outline the specific code changes needed for this and any enhancements that would be targeted for this same timeline (e.g. new hardware support, specific bugs that need to be fixed, etc.)

I'm not a coder anymore, but I'm willing to help in other areas that I can. That includes testing, documentation, whatever.

[mechling-burgh]

I would like a 64 bit compile of Sage for windows. I'm more than willing to give up firewire channel changing for expanded java heap support. I don't know what would be involved in getting it to 64 bit since we have the compiler set up already for vs2015. That is above my pay grade unfortunately.

[ptaylor]

The ability to do a fresh install of SageTV would be a great target. Right now, the community mostly consists of us old SageTV users. It we can get an installer, that would give us an easy way to expand the community with new people...

I switched to MythTV a little over a year ago (recently renewed my Schedules Direct subscription). I'm thankful for it, as it does work, and with Kodi being the front-end on FireTVs, it has been a decent HD200 stand-in. But, in all honesty, SageTV blows the doors off of MythTV. Since this is open-source now, we could probably get droves of MythTV users to switch, if we can get the word out (once we are ready).

[gary201]

I absolutely agree that an installer is really needed before any signifanrt user base growth would occur. I looked into mythtv as well, but since my career has been primarily Windows based, I just didn't have enough experience with Linux to be comfortable making the switch, plus I'm pretty heavily invested in Sage (3 hd300s, 1500 hours of recorded stuff, another 1500 hours of stuff sitting in import directories, etc.)

But I think that before we get there, a stable version through a v7 + upgrade would surely be an easier first step. At least with that, the more tech savvy new users could start using sage as well. It would basically provide the foundation for a fresh start install with an installer.

[ptaylor]

Yes, instructions for a v7 install + upgrade would be something a non-coder could do. It would probably be best if we had a Wiki... I wonder if Narflex can set one up on the site?

In fact, I imagine a lot of people here in the forum could easily write up a "Open Source Windows Install: Start here" post/wiki entry. All you'd need to do is provide links to the 7.1.9 download, the Java Sage.jar download, the new windows .EXE downloads (and I think the lucene-core jar file) , and provide a step-by-step instructions on installing 7.1.9, then dropping all the other files into the proper places. It might be good to include cablecard steps here too, since a lot of people have those devices and the process for that is somewhat difficult.

I just did this last night (except cablecard). I don't remember where I found something telling me to get the latest lucene-core, but I'm pretty sure it was in the forum somewhere.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by ptaylor

Yes, instructions for a v7 install + upgrade would be something a non-coder could do. It would probably be best if we had a Wiki... I wonder if Narflex can set one up on the site?

In fact, I imagine a lot of people here in the forum could easily write up a "Open Source Windows Install: Start here" post/wiki entry. All you'd need to do is provide links to the 7.1.9 download, the Java Sage.jar download, the new windows .EXE downloads (and I think the lucene-core jar file) , and provide a step-by-step instructions on installing 7.1.9, then dropping all the other files into the proper places. It might be good to include cablecard steps here too, since a lot of people have those devices and the process for that is somewhat difficult.

I just did this last night (except cablecard). I don't remember where I found something telling me to get the latest lucene-core, but I'm pretty sure it was in the forum somewhere.

Good idea. It should be put in a stickied post at the top of the SageTV Open Source forum:

Q: How do I install the open source version of SageTV on Windows?

[ptaylor]

I looked through the FAQs a few days ago when I first found out that it was open-sourced, but I don't think I looked back through it yesterday when I was trying to reinstall. I was looking for a Windows-centric "start here" sort of post.

Looking on the bright side, we can check that one off.

[ptoal]

I agree that milestones are probably needed, but there's also a lack of overall project structure and direction.

For the most part, I think everyone is doing what I'm doing: Hacking on the things that they want to work. I have met my goal: I replaced my v7 Windows SageTV with a FreeBSD native v9 SageTV. It's solid enough now that I've shut down the Win7 install completely.

Now that my needs have been met, though, I'm not sure how to contribute my changes. I don't know, for example, if any of them will break the Windows/Linux versions, as I haven't tried builds for those platforms.

I don't think I have enough interest to become a project maintainer, but I think we need a couple of people who are willing to work on a formal contribution process and roadmap. A wiki might be a handy idea, too, as I find that curated information is much easier to work with than forum searches.

If there isn't one already, and there is interest, I can set up a Docuwiki site for SageTV.

[stuckless]

Originally Posted by ptoal

Now that my needs have been met, though, I'm not sure how to contribute my changes. I don't know, for example, if any of them will break the Windows/Linux versions, as I haven't tried builds for those platforms.

I think the first step is to commit your changes back to your own REPO. That way there is a record of them. Someone else can PULL them into the main SageTV repo at a later date if needed.

I'm not sure the development community is large enough, yet, to support a road map. I know when I have 30 minutes to spare, I spend it doing stuff that
a) I want to do
b) I enjoy working on

So, for me, I have limited time windows to work on things, so I have to pick and choose what I do, and I always pick something that I enjoy. So if there was a road-map, and the first thing was "Get an installer working for Windows", then I'm not going to spend my 30 minutes on that (I don't even run Windows).

But, with a community that grows, pockets of developers will start to build out different areas, and then you can plan a road map. But right now, good luck trying to get a limited number of developers to commit a road-map that they don't see as necessary to them, or fun to work on

[ptoal]

Originally Posted by stuckless

I think the first step is to commit your changes back to your own REPO. That way there is a record of them. Someone else can PULL them into the main SageTV repo at a later date if needed.

Yep. Already done, in my FreeBSD branch.

Originally Posted by stuckless

But, with a community that grows, pockets of developers will start to build out different areas, and then you can plan a road map. But right now, good luck trying to get a limited number of developers to commit a road-map that they don't see as necessary to them, or fun to work on

Fair point. I guess that, for now, there will just be a bunch of forks, with personal changes. I mean, I'm not going to submit a PR for my changes, because I know that they need some work to tidy up for "the masses", and as you say, that isn't the "fun" part, so I'm not eager to do it right now.

[stuckless]

Originally Posted by ptoal

Fair point. I guess that, for now, there will just be a bunch of forks, with personal changes. I mean, I'm not going to submit a PR for my changes, because I know that they need some work to tidy up for "the masses", and as you say, that isn't the "fun" part, so I'm not eager to do it right now.

I don't imagine the demand, right now, is there for FreeBSD (not even really there for Linux), but, at least when the demand is there you changes can be pulled in and tested. And, it might be that with your changes, it can help with an OSX server build (which might have more demand than FreeBSD and Linux )

I should also say, that, even though there might not be a developer interest in creating a set of milestones or goals, it doesn't mean people shouldn't try to organize what they would like to see as milestones.

For me, the Android MiniClient will keep me busy for the next year, I'm sure. But I'd also like to see improvements in the plugin system (along the lines that Slugger proposed, maybe not exactly, but certainly that's the right direction).

I'd also like to get 32/64bit linux builds working in the same build script/environment (cross compiling).

I'd also like to get ARM server builds, so that "lightweight" sagetv server could run on a PI or BeagleBoard.

[mikejaner]

Originally Posted by stuckless

...I'd also like to get ARM server builds, so that "lightweight" sagetv server could run on a PI or BeagleBoard.

This on a Pi 2 with HDHR Prime, and a few HD300 or PC Clients would be sweet.

[gary201]

Originally Posted by stuckless

I should also say, that, even though there might not be a developer interest in creating a set of milestones or goals, it doesn't mean people shouldn't try to organize what they would like to see as milestones.

I couldn't have said it better myself. The problem here will be that OpenSage (or whatever it's going to be called) will forever just be a few people doing their own thing until there's a "packaged" release that can easily be installed and get working, and I'm thinking of the "average" user here.

Also, the term "packaged" doesn't necessarily mean a polished installer, but at least a relatively solid/stable process that an "average" user could follow. When that happens, then the user base will increase and in turn so will the number of folks that have the ability to contribute to the project.

One of the ways to help with that I agree could be a wiki. IMHO telling an "average" user to hunt for directions in a user forum where there are often conflicting directions will turn away a lot of folks. Forums and Wikis are two different things that serve different, although overlapping, purposes. Forums are about discussions, Wikis are about documenting (e.g. processes such as installation/configuration guides, compatibility lists, how-to directions, etc.)

[Fuzzy]

I don't think anyone's contesting the need to proper documentation, and a wiki would be the appropriate way to provide it for a community sourced project like SageTV is (or will become). That said, it simply takes something taking the initiative to start it, and start populating it with enough information to get further interest into it. Forum user Bacon2002 did register and start to create a sagetv wiki on wikia a few years ago, but at the time, with the questionable future of SageTV, no-one really hopped onto it - he put the information he could help with on there (mostly UK frequency maps). It is still sitting there, ready and willing to take edits at sagetv.wikia.com. The wiki hasn't been touched in 3 years, and Bacon hasn't been on this forum in a year - so I'm thinking the wiki could very easily be appropriated for wider community use. First step would be duplicating the Open Source installation instructions from the FAQ, and then likely going section by section through the SageTV Manual and Studio Manual and publishing that information there.

[Someassembly]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

I don't think anyone's contesting the need to proper documentation, and a wiki would be the appropriate way to provide it for a community sourced project like SageTV is (or will become). That said, it simply takes something taking the initiative to start it, and start populating it with enough information to get further interest into it. Forum user Bacon2002 did register and start to create a sagetv wiki on wikia a few years ago, but at the time, with the questionable future of SageTV, no-one really hopped onto it - he put the information he could help with on there (mostly UK frequency maps). It is still sitting there, ready and willing to take edits at sagetv.wikia.com. The wiki hasn't been touched in 3 years, and Bacon hasn't been on this forum in a year - so I'm thinking the wiki could very easily be appropriated for wider community use. First step would be duplicating the Open Source installation instructions from the FAQ, and then likely going section by section through the SageTV Manual and Studio Manual and publishing that information there.

I have just finished migrating the bulk of the manual to the Wikia. I see that others have started to Migrate the installation guides as well. I think it will take off with the new Open Source.

Mike

[Fuzzy]

Looks great so far. A lot of overall organizational changes need to be made, but that's a lot easier once the content is on there. I can see a lot of tweaks and optimizations needed for the manual content - adding links where possible, and probably trimming it down with stuff that is not really relevant to most users (things like PVR-350 output which I'm guessing most users don't - or ever have - used).