Is SageTV integrated TV info free of Frey?

[ToonGal]

I've been pushing SageTV over Tivo to friends and one of them had an interesting question. The biggest downside to Tivo (of which there are many others, IMHO) is their monthly $5 fee for TV information; as we here know, integrated TV information is included with the product.

The question posed to me was since Frey is a 2-man operation, if they went out of business, would the integrated TV information continue to work and/or would it be free? Personally, I don't know, because I never investigated whether the data is directly from the provider or if there is some sort of Frey login procedure that would end if/when Frey did.

I know that you can patch in XML updates, but that is "not acceptible". This seemed to be the biggest concern before considering purchase. I said I'd ask and report the status, so any information appreciated.

Thanks for any help.

[broderp]

In the US, the program data info comes from ZAP TO IT!, so the real question is, will ZAPTOIT! go out of busness? They are a third party conglomerate/web site sage uses to aquire program guide info.

[thatdude90210]

This doesn't really answer the question, but considering Tivo's continuing negative profit picture, your friends would have the same worries with Tivo.

The safest way might be with a rental from Comcast (if that's their cable company).

[ToonGal]

Originally posted by broderp
In the US, the program data info comes from ZAP TO IT!, so the real question is, will ZAPTOIT! go out of busness? They are a third party conglomerate/web site sage uses to aquire program guide info.

Not 100% accurate. Zap2It is the web arm of Tribune Media Services, which is "innovative entrepreneurial business unit of Tribune Company". They are providing data to a LOT of people (TV, internet, newspapers, etc.), and this has been a big cash cow for some time.

Zap2It might go, since that is their loss leader providing their own data content. TMS isn't going anywhere though.

Originally posted by thatdude90210
This doesn't really answer the question, but considering Tivo's continuing negative profit picture, your friends would have the same worries with Tivo.

The safest way might be with a rental from Comcast (if that's their cable company).

Too true, but a Tivo is a <$100 investment, cheap as a VCR, where a SageTV computer is $500+ minimum. For me, the computer can morph into any s/w that can do the job and is flexible, so it's perfect. For others, the Tivo vs. computer are just two different black boxes.

And as for safest, words like "rental" are the words that rankle in the first place.

So back to the question, does SageTV require an active/paid Frey license to acquire TV data?

[ToxMox]

The guide data is provided to Frey through Zap2it. SageTV connects to Frey's servers to get the built in guide data.

[stanger89]

Originally posted by ToonGal
Too true, but a Tivo is a <$100 investment, cheap as a VCR, where a SageTV computer is $500+ minimum. For me, the computer can morph into any s/w that can do the job and is flexible, so it's perfect. For others, the Tivo vs. computer are just two different black boxes.

How do you figure <$100? Sure you can buy a 40Hr (that's like 10-15Hrs at good quality) for ~$100, but then you have to pay for the service. That's either $13/month or $300 lifetime. If you go with the no monthly payment idea, then that's $400 for a 15Hr DVR, or if you go payments, you reach $400 in two years.

So back to the question, does SageTV require an active/paid Frey license to acquire TV data?

To answer your question, my understanding is that the Sage Guide data is downloaded from Sage servers. AFAIK there is no key to get it, hence you can get the guide data during the trial period without any key.

However being on the Frey servers, if Frey ever went under there would be no source for guide data.

However, my understanding is that XMLTV/epg import has come a long way, it no longer relies on scrubbing web pages (in the US at least). Now, Z2I/TMS has an XML feed, meaning (I think) that you get essentailly the same data as Frey does.

[ToonGal]

@ToxMox:
Thanks! Frey servers, darn.

Originally posted by stanger89
How do you figure <$100? Sure you can buy a 40Hr (that's like 10-15Hrs at good quality) for ~$100, but then you have to pay for the service. That's either $13/month or $300 lifetime. If you go with the no monthly payment idea, then that's $400 for a 15Hr DVR, or if you go payments, you reach $400 in two years.

To answer your question, my understanding is that the Sage Guide data is downloaded from Sage servers. AFAIK there is no key to get it, hence you can get the guide data during the trial period without any key.

However being on the Frey servers, if Frey ever went under there would be no source for guide data.

However, my understanding is that XMLTV/epg import has come a long way, it no longer relies on scrubbing web pages (in the US at least). Now, Z2I/TMS has an XML feed, meaning (I think) that you get essentailly the same data as Frey does.

The $100 is merely the buy price in Costco that I've been told about. This is hardly MY venture (I'm in for $1300 so far on my 3 tuner box), so can't defend the math. But $100 is the idea over there...

On your guide data info, that's exactly what I wanted, and can present the final info easily enough.

However, you now give me an interesting side-project idea. Since I can't make a plug-in for SageTV (Movie showtimes, stock quotes, sports scores, etc), the back-up XML feed might be a fun diversion and good fall-back in any bad eventuality.

Thanks all for the info! Pushing SageTV where I can to keep the company vital.

[stanger89]

Originally posted by ToonGal
@ToxMox:
Thanks! Frey servers, darn.


The $100 is merely the buy price in Costco that I've been told about. This is hardly MY venture (I'm in for $1300 so far on my 3 tuner box), so can't defend the math. But $100 is the idea over there...

Then you can rebut those comments by telling them it's a $300 lifetime (of the unit, not the user) subscription or a $13 monthly fee. Make sure you mention that the subscription goes with the unit, meaning if they upgrade, they have to buy a new subscription.

[PaulG]

Toongal, Why is it unacceptable to patch XML updates ???

Living In Australia where Sage provides NO EPG data at all, I've found that the XMLTV & a web scraper (in this instance TVHarvest *plug* *plug*) is a very acceptable solution.

Regardless if Frey or Tribune/TMS crash & burn you can still get your guide data one way or another.

IMHO the question is irrelavent (waits for flames)



neccesity is the mother of invention!

[TakeFlight]

To me comparing $100 for a TiVo box and $500 for a HTPC is comparing apples to oranges. The simple answer here is if Frey goes belly up (and hopefully this will never happen) it's not like the $500 spent on the HTPC was wasted. Simply buy a competing DVR software product for $60 and you are up and running again with minimal cost. And of course there are free options as well. So, I don't understand what the concern is.

[ToonGal]

Guys, first point is, I have to play Devil's Advocate here, for a position that isn't even remotely mine. I have computer skillz, and you are preaching to the choir. If there's ever an issue with Frey, I'm easily on the replace EPG provider and/or PVR software. I've committed a LOT of money to the project, much more than it is theoretically worth, given this premise. This is because of my extreme confidence in resolving any potential issues along the way.

Now, that being said, this one friend is extremely techo-phobic, and over a generation older than I am. Technology is a burgeoning world to this specific friend, and tries to keep an open mind. However, the skills aren't up to par with the interest. The biggest concern is that they can't maintain a computer. MY biggest concern is becoming an IT department to other users. (I already spend at least one day a week helping someone with their computer.)

This friend has seen my computer and is impressed, but I can understand (but not agree with) the intimidation of
- it's a computer, and I'm not comfortable with that (even though Tivo is just a Linux box too)
- it's much more expensive than I was anticipating (even though a bare-bones model is long-term similar priced, yet much more functional / expandable)
- it feels like a mom-and-pop company, and I'm concerned of its long-term prospects (where Tivo's cash bloodletting makes me sleep easy at night)
- if there's ever any maintenance issues, I'm on my own (yes, another satisfied non-paying customer...)

...And so forth. Already have one friend who bought as a solution, but two went with Tivo anyway. The three other prospects, even this current one, have possibilities, so all not lost.

Thanks again for the replies, gang!

PS:
@PaulG:
I've done some research into the XMLTV world, and am convinced I can get my system up and running relatively quickly. The Canadian EPG thread has a pretty good plug-and-play looking solution. This is good news on a personal level for this thread.

PPS:
As a result of not wasting time on my XML research, I'm prototyping a Movie Showtime plug-in, and looking for some kindly STV developer(s) who have interest. Writing in spare time, and will open a thread when the skeleton is completed.

[stanger89]

I fully understand your point. And for the most part I agree with you, Sage isn't for everyone, it probably could be but I know how you feel about becoming an IT department

I just think there are reasonable concerns, not computer-savy users; and unreasonable/illogical ones, like cost. I mean Sage is great, but some people just won't be able to handle anything more than a Tivo.

Here's an idea for you, for those friends of yours who would not fully appreciate Sage, you could give them the option of going with DirecTV and an DTvio, that is actually cheaper than Sage.

[TakeFlight]

I don't think a computer based PVR/DVR is the way to go if the person using it doesn't have some computer knowledge and is able to uninstall and install software packages. That's why TiVo and ReplayTV exist. Personally, I have both my HTPC and a ReplayTV 4500 series box and an older Panasonic ShowStopper (same as ReplayTV 3000 series). Since I built my HTPC, I've disconnected the older ShowStopper and I've hardly touched the ReplayTV 4500 box. But, there is no question that for a novice user the ReplayTV is much easier to set up and use with little worry of any of the normal computer problems (crashes, etc.).

The concern of guide information being provided down the road is a concern for not only SageTV and other PC based packages but also for TiVo and ReplayTV. Any one of these companies can go out of business. It would seem that it's only a matter of time before ReplayTV and TiVo can no longer sustain their business due to video on demand services from the cable providers. ReplayTV used to be their own company but then they were bought by SonicBlue and then SonicBlue (now out of business) sold all of it's assets (ReplayTV was sold to Denon/Marantz). TiVo has done better but their financial situation isn't all that great. So, you are taking a chance with any of the DVR/PVR solutions. At least with a computer based solution you have a computer that can be used for other things. On the other hand, a novice user is better off with a TiVo or ReplayTV unless you want to be that novice user's tech support.

[Grey_Goose]

I think Sage's biggest strength is multiple tuners. If your friends are interested in recording more than two shows, or watching while recording, then Tivo is not an option... unless they want to ghetto up the place with multiple Tivos.

Another big issue for me was Tivo's quality. I have no idea what encoder they use, but I have a large TV, and the minute we put Tivo on (pre-Sage), we noticed a loss in pq. With Sage, not only is my pq preserved, but I can also upsample it w/ ffdshow.

Finally, space, space, space. Tivo charges gargantuan fees for minor increases in size. If you're an aggressive sale watcher, you can get $.50 a gig or better. So that extra $100 Tivo charges *could* be a 200GB drive. After which, you don't have to babysit the progs you've recorded.

As far as PVR software companies go, tell your friends if they all go belly up, they can still get Windows MCE. Seems like good insurance to me.

[broderp]

As I see it, the problems of complexity come from the fact it IS a windows program. TIVO IS NOT.

I'm not saying tivo is more stable because it's not WINDOWS, but it is inherantly stable because it has LESS GOING ON SOFTWARE WISE.

If a stripped version of XP could be had with no frills and tailored JUST to have features that SAGE requires or adds, then there would be no comparison.

Yes, HTPC can do MUCH more than a TIVO can, but this is a mute point for those who are "SCARED OF THE PC", it's a moot point to them anyways, as they are scared of having to maintain a PC, they most likely aren't very PC litterate to begin with!

My best friend comes to mind...bless herheart, I was testing her new DSL connection (wich of course I had to go over and set up for her) and I tested it by downloading the ATI CATYLYST software from the ATI website (27MB). You should have heard her! "What are you doing, your going to fill up my MEMORY!!"

I had just upgraded her memory from 128MG to 256MG (win98 system) to meet the requirements of DSL and had told her her memory was not adequet for DSL, but obviously she was CONFUSED.!!