SageTV doesn't believe I'm connected to the internet

[sleepyhead]

I just posted this to Frey support... but maybe someone here can offer some advice.

I'm receiving this error when I try to force an update of the EPG:

"There was an error connecting to the SageTV Server. Please be sure your Internet connection is established."

My internet connection is working fine. I haven't made any changes to the set-up or the firewall.

I'm using the Zap2It (Canada) for the listings - I double-checked, and my subscription is still valid until December. I've rebooted the system a couple times as well.

Thanks,
Matt

[Opus4]

For lack of any better ideas... you're absolutely certain that your firewall didn't suddenly go bonkers and start blocking SageTV? Some version of ZoneAlarm did that to me once. Also: when did you last try it? Maybe the Zap2It server (edit: not SageTV server) was temporarily offline.

Edited to reflect the fact we are talking about the Zap2It server (Canada), not the SageTV server; see below.

- Andy

[sleepyhead]

I'm fairly certain my firewall isn't blocking traffic to SageTV - I haven't changed any permissions (I don't have ZoneAlarm nor SP2 installed on the Sage PC). What ports does SageTV require open?

I tried installing GB-PVR for the heck of it, and I didn't have any problem configuring Zap2It and downloading with that.

Perhaps the SageTV Server is down - I'll give it another go in the morning. Annoyingly, SageTV doesn't recognize failed downloads and won't auto-update overnight. Does anyone know if there's a fix to that bug on the way?

Thanks,
Matt

[sleepyhead]

The problem resolved itself overnight - the listings updated.

But, now I'm curious about why my PC needs to connect to a "SageTV" server at all. Why can't it simply connect directly to Zap2It?

Matt

[krutaw]

Originally Posted by sleepyhead

The problem resolved itself overnight - the listings updated.

But, now I'm curious about why my PC needs to connect to a "SageTV" server at all. Why can't it simply connect directly to Zap2It?

Matt

Matt~

The reason is because the listings actually go through a Frey server after being published by Zap2It.

Okay, time to get on my Soapbox! I personally don't like that specific item because that means that at some point Frey could change it's collective minds about charging for EPG data, and we'd be in the same boat as with TiVo.

Anywho, stepping off my soapbox now.

[salsbst]

Is Zap2It incapable of changing its terms? What makes them such a better place from which to download data?

[krutaw]

Originally Posted by salsbst

Is Zap2It incapable of changing its terms? What makes them such a better place from which to download data?

Salsbst~

I think the real answer here is that we need to be able to intergrate different data streams instead of relying on a single point of failure.

[zz5]

Originally Posted by salsbst

Is Zap2It incapable of changing its terms? What makes them such a better place from which to download data?

Frey is a two-man company. Zap2It is really large company that supplies Tivo, ReplayTV, etc.

[nielm]

Originally Posted by krutaw

I think the real answer here is that we need to be able to intergrate different data streams instead of relying on a single point of failure.

'We' can -- thats what the public EPG plugin API is for...

If Frey goes under (and lets hope that never happens), you can use the Zap2It DataDirect EPG plugin to get US data for free, for as long as Zap2It decides to make it free... And if they stop, I am sure somebody will make something else...

You guys don't know how lucky you are getting a free accurate EPG source... Over this side of the pond we have web crawlers of dubious legality producing data of dubious accuracy... On my system I have to combine data from 4 XMLTV grabbers and everything is a 'First Run'!

Anyway... way off topic here... and the original issue is resolved.

[zz5]

Does anyone know for sure that that is how Sage really gets its data? Is all the data copied to the Frey servers from the Zap2it before we get it? That seems like a lot of trouble and would take a lot of bandwidth. Why not just get it from Zap2it? I figured that the data would come directly from Zap2it.

[nielm]

ZZ5: yes (use netstat), yes (obviously), and why: because...
(deep breath) Zap2it's data direct service simply did not exist 6 months ago -- the data was only available to resellers such as Frey.
And if Frey directed their uses to Zap2Its servers, they would probably have to pay Zap2It to compensate for all that 'trouble and bandwidth'.
And Frey probably need to post-process the EPG data to convert it to a format to make it easier for SageTV to download.
And DataDirect is not free (as in freedom) -- you have to fill in a survey every 3 months: Freys interface is completly free (in both senses of the word).
And probably a million other reasons, some technical, some historical...

Just realised that the the original posters issues were with the Zap2It Data Direct EPG plugin for Canada anyway, so all this discussion about Freys EPG service is even more off topic than before.

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by nielm

Just realised that the the original posters issues were with the Zap2It Data Direct EPG plugin for Canada anyway, so all this discussion about Freys EPG service is even more off topic than before.

I missed that bit about Canada in the first post too! So, the complaints about having to go through the SageTV servers, because the two-man company could have problems, unlike the big Zap2It company, are really funny.

Edit: But, it was my response referring to the "SageTV server" possibly being offline that started the shift to talking about that.

- Andy

[sleepyhead]

Now I'm a little confused.

Just to clarify, I'm using the SageTV Zap2It Data Direct plugin to get my listings. I assumed it connected directly to Zap2It to retrieve the listings and my PC processed the data.

Does the plugin connect to the SageTV server or is that error I received in my original post ("could not connect to the SageTV Server") inaccurate? Like I said, I tried connecting with GB-PVR and it downloaded the listings without a problem. I'm just wondering what the root cause really could be.

As a sidenote - this little problem gave me a reason to try another PVR app, and I appreciate SageTV that much more! GB-PVR is good value for the price (free), but it doesn't compare to SageTV. If only the output on my Happauge PVR350 didn't hiccup every so often, I would hardly have any complaints at all.

Matt

[zz5]

nielm,

Zap2It is the company that provides most of the U.S. pvr applications. Whether it's TIVO, ReplayTV, or Sage, if you're in the U.S., you're getting your data from Zap2It. So Frey would never have had to use DirectDownload or anything similar. DirectDownload is just a single user thing. It makes it a lot easier than page scraping which is what we used to have to do. Frey would have a different arrangement with Zap2It.

It's definitely better for users to download directly from Zap2It. First, downloading everything from Zap2It and then to the users doubles the necessary bandwidth. Second, it leaves a lag time between when we get our data. If Frey updates their servers once a day, we'd on average be one day behind. If they update their servers more often, say twice a day, that would triple the necessary bandwidith. The DirectDownload data is already compressed and processed. I guarentee to you, Frey is not analyzing the data for each zip code. They get the data and send it on. If TIVO and ReplayTV don't need to process the data, why would Frey? That would be done on the end user side. And I'm talking about doing things ideally here. Of course there may be some limitation because of the Frey's number of users or other complexity involving Zap2It that prevents them from doing it this way. They can't command the same deals as TIVO/ReplayTV. But there shouldn't be any technical limitation if that's the way TIVO/ReplayTV does it.

[zz5]

sleepyhead, I used to use a program called DigiGuide. It was just a guide listings program for the computer, not a pvr program. I got the data similar to the way you do. There was no need to connect to the DigiGuide servers for data, but it would still force me to connect to make sure I was a registered user. I don't think Sage works this way, but maybe Sage tries to connect to the Sage server for some reason anyway. There shouldn't be any reason to connect to the Sage servers because the DirectDownload data you're getting isn't coming from Sage.

[Jere_Jones]

zz5,

I disagree with your bandwidth reasoning (but not the timedelay). I figure that since Frey only downloads the data once or twice a day, it creates less of a burden than if the hundreds(thousands?) of Sage users were to download it from Zap2It. With a reduced load, they can pay less for bandwith, hence charge us/Frey less.

My two cents worth, take it for what it's worth.

Jere

[salsbst]

Cool avatar, zz5!

sleepyhead, my guess is that the error message was written before the advent of the EPG Plugin API, and as such makes an incorrect assumption that Frey is the source. But that's just a guess.

_____

My 2 cents on the apparently hot issue of the place from which data are downloaded...

I don't know why anyone would worry about the bandwidth consumed by a data connection between Zap2It and Frey (other than Zap2It and Frey).

I imagine Frey gets a discount on the data feed by caching it on its servers. I'm all for them keeping costs down where possible.

What does the per-day refresh rate of Frey's data matter? Are you looking that far into the future to schedule recordings more than once per day?

Last: why does everyone seem to be so determined to create a problem where there isn't one?

Yes, sleepyhead had a problem. And Niel finally noticed the fact that Frey wasn't even the direct provider of the data that couldn't be downloaded. The rest of us were fooled by the error message. And so this whole thing about Zap2It being a better place from which to download data is funny (funny haha), because we have anecdotal evidence here that suggests that Zap2It may actually be less reliable than Frey for end-user data retrieval.

Anyway, them's not fightin' words, I'm just stating my case and trying to understand those of others in this thread.

Regards,
Stuart

[zz5]

Jere Jones, good point, I agree. I was totally wrong about that. The bandwidth wouldn't be twice as much like I was saying, because of course the lion's share of the bandwidth used would be all the downloading to each user. The extra bandwidth needed by downloading first from Zap2It to the Sage server would be negligible. Now it makes sense why they do it that way. Thanks.

[Jere_Jones]

zz5,

Now if I could only get my wife to admit when she's wrong.

And OUTSTANDING AVATAR!!!!

Jere

[zz5]

salsbst and Jere Jones,

Thanks. I did a search for "Halloween" and "cat" on google and got that picture.