Studio Release

[salsbst]

Whatever.

[Methius]

FT just made the decision that has killed their software in my opinion.
Look at MCE, even Microsoft was smart enough to release a SDK for it!
Microsoft!!!

And when you have looked at that SDK you can tell, it ain't user-friendly.
BUT, plugins are slowly popping up, leaving SageTV & BeyondTV (Dunno if that one has a SDK) behind.

Just think, MythTV is a great mediacenter (PVR, etc), only drawback that it has is Linux based. (not so easy for some people).

MCE is windows based, extremely easy to install, and slowly but steadily matching any other PVR software. Because what it doesn't have in the normal install, gets made by the community with the SDK.

This was the reason why I bought SageTV, It was implied that the SDK (studio) would be released. And with that & this active community in mind, I thought that any given request would eventually get coded in a plugin. Thus making SageTV the best choice.

Give me one good reason why Studio shouldn't be released, and I'll stop whining . Cause I seriously think it is the only last fighting chance FT has for SageTV in the long run.

Just look at Nielm (and other beta-builders ), people want an web-based UI, he codes it for them. Imagine if more people like him would have acces to Studio?? SageTV would steadily match given requests, due to support from the community.

And if an feature would be important enough, FT could code it into the core of SageTV (because the plugin should be compatible (coded with Studio)).

BTW, I'm not blaming the beta-testers in ANY way. You guys are the life-line of this community, and in my opinion SageTV. Because if you guys quit, this will slowly fall apart (due to better competitive software). And then there's the matter of you guys giving free time to give us more than the original program is able to give, thanks for that . Ow and Salbst, I use the WRS... a lot thanks for it.

[mostlyfodder]

Wow what a thread. I agree that Frey has changed course over the past year, in that Studio isn't going to be released publicly any time soon.

That may be a good thing.

Maybe they've decided that it's too complex or difficult to use for the average HTPC'er. Maybe they've realized they've ALREADY GOT A NEAR PERFECT PRODUCT ONCE YOU INCLUDE THE BODY OF WORK THUS FAR SUBMITTED BY THE PRIVATE STUDIO BETA TESTERS & OTHER PUBLIC DOMAIN PROGRAMMERS.

Through the work of private Studio beta testers (like nielm), and the work of the person who wrote the sendmessage plugin, I'm finally getting sageTV to function the way i want: as a simple PVR that allows me to have custom control over the menu tree and that can be controlled by girder (or whatever) via sendmessage.

I can think of a few more things i'd like, but so far SageTV is evolving (slowly) into something much better than it was 1 year ago.

----

I also wonder how the (seemingly underwhelming) release of MeedioTV has affected Frey. I was expecting a lot more from MeedioTV, but presumably Frey knows what the true obstacles are to PVR perfection. Either they know MeedioTV has come close, or perhaps is as far behind Sage as it looks to me.

In any case, Frey knows its market, as does Meedio. It's only a matter of time before one of them comes up with the killer app that provides the same functionality as their major competitors And if not, well, thankfully we have Girder to help integrate 'em

-(mostly) Fodder

[kny3twalker]

Whatever.

hey I was just kidding
but I really do not know where you implied that
"I felt the beta STV users were making it so Frey would not give us studio," I just do not know where you got this from

and I was not starting an arguement

and about the weather suite
I think it is beautiful, but just over complex for me
basic weather is enough for me

I have had it lock up SageTV through if that helps .... doubt it but thats my bug

[mightyt]

Come on ... Can't we all just get along !!

Look, we're starting to sound like a bunch of old women ...

I for one say KUDOS to Dan ... For those of you that have been GRIPING over and over and over and over that they never say anything about Studio and that you didn't care what was said, as long as they quit leaving us in the dark ... Well ... Let's give credit where it is due ... NOW YOU KNOW ...

You may not be happy, but Dan stepped up and provided us all with an honest update. Also, don't tell me that you all think when a course of action changes you think it's all a right wing conspiracy and was a deliberate premeditated lie?? Pa-lease ...

Anyone doing anything in the computing biz knows that we all hope for certain results and along we way change direction to obtain an even better result. That's business.

As for me, the mere fact that Frey posted in this thread deserves some respect and will be what keeps me in the Sage sandbox ... I know there are more out there of like mind, but it's easier to complain.

IMHO I don't think Frey will decide not release Studio ever. I am sure it is quite apparent to them by now that there is great desire and interest for it and they stand to gain more committed Sagers by delivering it. I am sure they just want to release something with quality. If they released it half baked, everyone would then be complaining about that. So, for now I will continue to look forward to Studio "when", not "if" it is released.

I will also continue to recommend Sage to others.

OK, that's my nickels worth ... Stepping off the .... NEXT ...

Final comment … THANKS DAN …

(I’ll bet someone is thinking right now … suck up ... but I don't care)

T.

[samgreco]

First, don't kill the new guy.

From my perspective, I feel that Frey's "advertising" was misleading. When I looked at different PVR applications last July to compare features, I decided to go with Sage for a few reasons. Most of those reasons still exist. BUT I did place the "upcoming" release of Studio high on the list.

And not because I would necessarily do any coding, but there would be lots of folks who would. Thereby giving me lots of choices of STVs and modules. Now it looks like that may not happen as expected.

So I'm a bit disappointed. Would I decide to buy Sage today? Probably. But, since others now offer client/server, multi-tuner, etc., maybe not.

I have to say that Sage has been ROCK-SOLID for me, so I won't be jumping ship anytime soon. Not to mention EVERYONE'S GREAT STV work so far.

Now, if ANYONE offered a music module that was worth a damn...

Sam

[ckron]

For me it boils down to one. I feel I have been ripped off. I paid for SageTV under the pretense that I would also get Studio. If you bought a game that you could play with keyboard and mouse, but the company was supposed to provide a new controller that made the game better and easier to play and then they said you couldn't have the controller even though it existed and worked and others had it; you would be pissed. This is the exact same thing.

[pdxcoop]

Releasing of Stage Studio meant the movement of community support. That support is a fine time line of people who are willing to do what it takes to make a product better, but if that community is taken advantage of or disregarded, it ends. Those people walk way and find something that will allow a true community support. I have seen this so many times. The HTPC community is like the minority group that keeps getting taken advantage of in so many ways. For every step forward, we seem to take 2 steps back.

I have followed Sagetv since it 1st went beta. I disliked the interface so much that I did not buy this product till 2.0. One of the major reason's I bought it was to be able to play with sage studio and put in the features and look I wanted. Or at least have a huge group of people willing to do just that.

What I see will happen is 2 things. People like to tinker, and especially the do it your self group which is what sagetv is mostly targeted towards. People will either find another product to tinker with or sage might just be holding out just incase that product does come to light and release studio at that point to prevent the movement of people leaving the sage front. Either way it is a game and that in itself is wrong. It is drama people do not want or care for.

You guys are from Chicago; I grew up in Chicago, what happened to logical thinking? Not everything is about money or poor decision making.

This is all very sad. No matter how you look at it. Because the user base that did help build sage just got taken advantage of.

So let the running begin.

On another note, all those who have sage studio, thank you so much for taking the time and energy in making Sagetv better.

[mightyt]

Originally Posted by Cayars

Guys, don't jump to conclusions here and read things into what Dan said.

Maybe, Studio needs a little more refinement here and there before it's ready for the masses. Don't forget that it will need to be supported. They have to keep this in mind. Maybe Jeff/Dan want to simplify it's use. I don't know the answers to these questions, either, but I'm glad that Dan made his post.

Maybe, if everyone doesn't start ranting and raving and respectfully ask, they might give us more information about their intentions for studio.

And BTW, I do not know anything more then you guys on this.

Ahhh ... The voice of reason ...

[Hector]

Originally Posted by mightyt

NOW YOU KNOW ...

Now you know what other than when it will NOT be released?

No offense intended, I'm trying to be objective here. I've been in software publishing for a long time so generally speaking I understand issues they may face and I am also a Sage customer. Studio would be cool, but it was not a big part of my purchase decision so I'm not actually in the 'storm the castle' crowd but I certainly see their point.

People that build their own PVR boxes and find their way on to these forums are regardless of their opinions for the most part very intelligent people. After months of being ignored when Frey finally communicated to customers who feel they have paid for something they have not yet received the message APPEARED to be deliberately ambiguous, a couched non-answer which you could reasonably interpret as a setup for disappointment.

Forum messages like email are easy to read the wrong thing into. That being the case they know their statement has upset people so let's see if they step up and clarify.

I don't know why Frey has chosen to communicate so poorly with their customers. IMO when you don't have a huge marketing budget you can hardly afford to lose your customer base as advocates. Perhaps it's business inexperience, mapped out genius level strategy beyond my understanding or maybe they'd like to but for some reason we don't know just cannot. But whatever the reason it certainly should not surprise anyone that poor communication with customers who feel they have paid for something that they have not received leaves them feeling angry and frustrated.

peace . . .

[mightyt]

Originally Posted by Hector

Now you know what other than when it will NOT be released?

That's just the point ... many complained because nothing was said. Well, now you know Dan's hope for Studio. He communiocated it ...

Originally Posted by Hector

No offense intended,

None taken ...

Originally Posted by Hector

Forum messages like email are easy to read the wrong thing into. That being the case they know their statement has upset people so let's see if they step up and clarify.

Maybe this is part of the reason for minimul forum communication. People will inadvertantly take something the wrong way and get upset. In know it would make me apprehensive and the reason I commend them for taking the leap.

Originally Posted by Hector

I don't know why Frey has chosen to communicate so poorly with their customers.

I consider two things; one maybe not to tip your hand to the competition and two you get beat up if you speak up even a little prematurely.

Originally Posted by Hector

IMO when you don't have a huge marketing budget you can hardly afford to lose your customer base as advocates.

Maybe this is another reason to give some slack ... Even Microsoft with a slightly larger budget has made false promises, put out less than complete product and yet I'll bet most everyone here uses at least one of their products. Maybe not having a huge budget and staff at your side is the reason for the tug of war communication. How much is too much and how much is not enough. I figure you will never make everyone happy ...

Originally Posted by Hector

Perhaps it's business inexperience, mapped out genius level strategy beyond my understanding or maybe they'd like to but for some reason we don't know just cannot.

Maybe so and just more reason to consider what it would be like to be in their shoes.

Originally Posted by Hector

But whatever the reason it certainly should not surprise anyone that poor communication with customers who feel they have paid for something that they have not received leaves them feeling angry and frustrated.

I think most will stick it out for a good product, rather than a conversation with the CEO. If SageTV itself stays comeptative and provides best of breed features and we have various custom STV's and plug-ins to tweak and if they continue to provide improvements people will stay. I think Studio is the icing on the cake, with some others, you get a cake with icing, b ut it tastes lousey.

Some have mentioned going to MCE or others, but for me network ability, unlimited tuner cards, several STV's (and more coming), custom menus, weather, traffic, newsfeeds, MPV, Divx support and on and on make Sage more desireable. And even it you want MCE you just lay down MlbDude's new STV. Can you make MSE look like and feel like Sage???

So, I understand the excitement around Studio, but just think we should put it in perspective ...

T.

[flashbacck]

Originally Posted by mostlyfodder

Maybe they've decided that it's too complex or difficult to use for the average HTPC'er. Maybe they've realized they've ALREADY GOT A NEAR PERFECT PRODUCT ONCE YOU INCLUDE THE BODY OF WORK THUS FAR SUBMITTED BY THE PRIVATE STUDIO BETA TESTERS & OTHER PUBLIC DOMAIN PROGRAMMERS.

Yes, but think how much closer to being perfect it could be if people could make their own stv's.

And not releasing studio because it's "too complex" is silly.

[Brett]

Originally Posted by mightyt

Can you make MCE look like and feel like Sage???

Assuming it was possible, why would you?

-Brett

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Hector

I don't know why Frey has chosen to communicate so poorly with their customers.

Probably because every time they say anything, (other than "Here you go") they get crucified. Back before 2.0 they spelled out what they hoped to do, things they thought would be cool, and stuff that was possible, and when some of it didn't happen, or was late? People got out their torches and pitchforks. So they clammed up (there's probably some compettetive strategy too). Then, people start crying "Why don't you tell us anything." So Dan gives an honest update (or two), and what's the response? "We've been screwed"

I think if they could go back, and un-announce Studio, they would, the only answer that satisfies many people around here is "Here you go", and it's only good enough if that answer comes now.

You can't have everything, you can't have all the answers you want (fact of life), and you can't expect regular communication if you get out the torches and pitchforks when you get an answer you don't like.

[kny3twalker]

Some have mentioned going to MCE or others

if this was for me
I think what I said was this

I am actually thinking about trying out MCE, if Frey does not fix the directx9c bug with fast fowarding, not fixing things like that will piss me off more than not releasing studio.

I am a little dissappointed, but I have no idea if I can even use Studio

[Hector]

Just because you get heat from your customers is no reason to ignore them esp if you owe them something.

One thing I am not clear on is the assertion that some people make that they are owed Studio. In other words it's not just a future release but rather that it was part of their license and/or purchase decision. I bought Sage right when the first 2.0 beta was released and before I personally heard of Studio.

What do people base this on? If they're on the hook to customers that's a world of difference in their accountability.

peace . . .

Originally Posted by stanger89

Probably because every time they say anything, (other than "Here you go") they get crucified. Back before 2.0 they spelled out what they hoped to do, things they thought would be cool, and stuff that was possible, and when some of it didn't happen, or was late? People got out their torches and pitchforks. So they clammed up (there's probably some compettetive strategy too). Then, people start crying "Why don't you tell us anything." So Dan gives an honest update (or two), and what's the response? "We've been screwed"

I think if they could go back, and un-announce Studio, they would, the only answer that satisfies many people around here is "Here you go", and it's only good enough if that answer comes now.

You can't have everything, you can't have all the answers you want (fact of life), and you can't expect regular communication if you get out the torches and pitchforks when you get an answer you don't like.

[mls]

Originally Posted by Hector

Just because you get heat from your customers is no reason to ignore them esp if you owe them something.

One thing I am not clear on is the assertion that some people make that they are owed Studio. In other words it's not just a future release but rather that it was part of their license and/or purchase decision. I bought Sage right when the first 2.0 beta was released and before I personally heard of Studio.

What do people base this on? If they're on the hook to customers that's a world of difference in their accountability.

Way back before 2.0, in various posts in the forum and in various interviews with magazines, etc. Fry implied Studio might come with a future SageTV release. The also implied that it might be free.

Notice I say "implied". I do not recall seeing or hearing anything from Frey that ever officially or directly said Studio would actually be included with SageTV or that it would be free either.

The only official words from Frey have always been basically that they are working on Studio. Nothing more, nothing less. However, many people have made an assumption that they are owed Studio based on their own interpretation of the statements Frey has made.

As I pointed out in a previous post, until Frey gets the core of SageTV completed they can not finish work on Studio. Considering the number of problems people have posted about v2.1 after its release, it appears v2.1 really wasn't even up to "beta" level (much less up to a "release candidate" level). Although I do find it hard to believe though that none of these problems were ever reported by any of the beta testers.

It almost seems like Frey simply decided to make an official release of (rather untested) software simply to keep up with the new release of Beyound TV and Windows MCE. Putting out software simply to keep up with the jones doesn't seem like a very good idea to me, but maybe Frey felt it was necessary to do so. Not fully knowing what Frey is thinking, or planning for the future, I really can't pass any judgement call on the way Frey is doing things other than that I am not at all impresssed by the direction things seem to be heading.

[mightyt]

Originally Posted by kny3twalker

if this was for me
I think what I said was this



I am a little dissappointed, but I have no idea if I can even use Studio

A general observation, not intended directly at you ...

T.

[mightyt]

Originally Posted by Brett

Assuming it was possible, why would you?

-Brett

Because maybe MCE isn't the "only" desired interface. Frankly, I am pretty pleased with being able to create my own personal menus and not locked in to a specific layout provided for me.

Personally, I tried the original MCE and 2004. Was not impressed. Can't comment on 2005, but I can spend every night until midnight tweaking Sage to my linking for two months if I feel like it. And that's without studio. Everyday we get a new Sage toy to play with ... to that end I even forgot to mention ComSkip or Nielm's new Web Access tool ...

And as mentioned, if I want the MCE UI MlbDude is kind enough to do the work for us.

So ... I guess that should answer the why question ....

T.

[ckron]

Try this link to see where I get my crazy idea that Studio is owed to me by Frey

http://forums.freytechnologies.com/f...ghlight=studio

Just in case the link doesn't work I am pasting in what Narflex stated in his post:

"The SageTV Studio is part of SageTV2 (some info found elsewhere on the forums, more details on it soon)."

Now I would like someone to argue with that! All I did to find this post was to do an advanced search for the keyword studio and a user name of Narflex.