Studio Release

[bisbjerg]

I, for one, represent a minority of non-english users.
Building an HTPC solution based on any of the multitude of PVR applications out there, isn´t easy in the first place, mind you, as most software vendors are located in the US and assume that everybody all aroudn the world have the same viewing habits. This basically means, that the IR facility in SageTV, is not the #1 feature for me. I just want to make a solution with a high WAF, and therefore it is essential to me, to be able to customize and localize the PVR SW.
The TV-OUT in PVR-350 is also an important feature to me, and one I wouldn't like to compromise, but if Studio isn't intended for end-user purposes, as the latest post from Frey hints at, it will be a major disappointment, and then there would suddenly be other (cheaper) alternatives to SageTV (MediaPortal for instance).
By the way, none of the other PVR solutions come anywhere near MCE 2005 in sleekness and usability, in my opinion, which is probably why, so many people are interested in MlbDude's excellent work.

[r00st3r]

Sage and MyHTPC were the first few to come out with HTPC front ends and Sage with the TV portion. Now it seems that other developers are joining the bandwagon as we have a few more solutions to turn to (some free, some not) and with M$ having multiple tuner (and OTA HDTV which is highly requested!) it would seem that the compitition is growing. in order to compete you have to give your customers what is advertised. If you don't give your customers what they want, they will go elsewhere (this does not just apply to sage but business in general).
With the advertisement that Studio would be included (see previous posts with links) in 2.0 and after the announcement (yes Dan did post, and yes it wasn't a positive post) that it should be released next year but not sure what would be included, there are alot of dissapointed customers. In the realm of HTPC, we are hobbyists in the infacy of controlling our digital media. If there is a step forward in the technology, we all look forward to it. Do not misinform your customers of features or enhancements to get them to buy your product and then not deliver. I think this is the jist of how alot of Sage customers are feeling IMHO.

I will remain a SAGE customer for the time being using Meedio as a front end and trying to match skins so it doesn't look too retarded because i haven't tools to make sage the way I want it.

[kny3twalker]

You know this whole thing seems similiar to the past issues with Frey Tech
PVR 350 OSD crashing and the one that actually got resolved, the different chipset pvr cards from hauppauge

the pvr 350 problem still exists and people still buy them having the same issues
yet Frey has tried to hide their head in the sand
hoping it will get passed by

I guess they figure the same for Studio
We will be mad at first and then just learn to deal with it

[r00st3r]

Well, i didn't want this post to be about all the things Sage has or hasn't done nor did I want this to be a Frey bashing forum. It was mostly for Studio and it's demand from the Sage customers. With the blinding pace that technology is moving forward in the digital realm with new formats (Blu-ray, HD-DVD, HDTV, and the like), we are still trying to get a handle on an interface to control it all. Yea, you could piecemail a gazillion apps together to make it all work, but it's not intuitive or consumer friendly. I give Frey 2 thumbs up for what they have done for the HTPC\PVR interface (and all the beta testers), but think they set themselves up for this by prematuraly announcing a piece of it that was not ready for distribution...and then not saying anything about it (whether they got a good response or not).

[kny3twalker]

You know this whole thing seems similiar to the past issues with Frey Tech
PVR 350 OSD crashing and the one that actually got resolved, the different chipset pvr cards from hauppauge

the pvr 350 problem still exists and people still buy them having the same issues
yet Frey has tried to hide their head in the sand
hoping it will get passed by

only mentioned this stuff which is more important than Studio because people asked and asked for Frey to post something in their website concerning mobo chipsets for the 350/ working systems with the 350 and incompatibility issues with the chipsets before hauppauge fixed the drivers

[Ralphjb]

I do not think in the 2 years I've been visiting this Forum, have I seen a thread grow this fast.

I started with Sage 1.3, so I did not buy this product for Studio. I understand that some might have. But come on! This product is fairly priced the way it is. If Studio comes along, it is a bonus.

SageTV is extremely reliable. When and if Studio comes out, I want it to equal that performance marker. As a user, I appeciate Frey's commitment to that.

[Crazedz]

Sorry i haven't been here for a while, Well not true i have but have been to busy with other things to take the time to stop and post to many things going on. But i felt i should say something when i saw this.



Personally i bought into sagetv back at 1.3.4 i believe so studio wasn't a purchase consideration for me though i guess it was for others. Even if i could get studio i really doupt i could make anything with it im not into programming so it's pointless for me.

But their are others out their who do have the programming skills and do want to get their hands on this but can't because they wern't included in the limited beta. From the small (just a guess but i've only seen to this date a very tiny not even handfull of beta testers with studio) albeit important (to the community and freys) group it does seem like their is room for some more people being let in on this private beta. But then i don't know how many are really in the beta or why thoughs who may not have posted a stv haven't yet maybe their are more than we know of at this time. It does seem like their could be more though.

For me though thats not as important an issue as getting the bugs worked out of the current version of Sagetv. Which i haven't been able to upgrade to as of yet because im havening the same problems others have reported about with 2.1.10 because of multi tuner issues that have croped up that weren't their before. Namely getting tuners that did work before in 2.0 to work now in 2.1. I have seen few if any responses from Freys on this issue and the lack of any visible seeming concern or action from them to resolve though issues had prompted me to start looking at other companies out their for my pvr needs. After some looking around i have seen some that look like they may in the future have some nice promise some having better looking more intuitive looking interfaces and have multi tuner support like GBpvr and CTpvr but are more unstable and don't like to work with my second (yuan) tuner and more than sagetv 2.1 does. Acctually they worked even less well than 2.1 but the makers of thoughs products are more involved with their users than freys has been of late and more prompt with handleing user issues like freys used to be.

Now i have heard plenty from thoughs who say that the reasons for this are that they have become gunshy about posting on the forums because their afraid of being crucified by the users when they say something the users don't like. Case in point whats going on in this thread and i can understand why the users are upset about what they have heard and what has been promised or implied in the past. But this is buisness and things like this come with the turf and freys can't keep conducting buisness burying their heads in the sand or avoiding their user base when things start getting a little hot nor by avoiding problems their users are having. If thats the case they may as well close their doors right now and shelve their product because they'll loose their user base to some other company thats cares more about their users and is more willing to help and comunicate with them.

It's no secret that in order to survive in a buisness you got to learn to be thick skinned and let criticizimes (Oh for a spell checker now) roll off their backs or you'll never survive long enough to make any kind of go at it let alone make a big profit.

So Jeff Dan if this is the case knock it off toughen that skin and get back out their to your users. Or get someone who can to deal with this on the boards to take the heat for you.

And if it's just that your to busy to come talk with us then really you should get someone as a go between to do the talking and support for you on the boards because it's really needed.

Sorry i know i haven't been contributing much of late and probably don't have the right to come back and say this in my first post but i feel that if this is the case then somebody needed to say it so we can try to get some things back on track. Then we can get back to dealing with the real job of getting a good quality htpc product which is what we all want right?

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by Crazedz

Namely getting tuners that did work before in 2.0 to work now in 2.1. I have seen few if any responses from Freys on this issue

And if it's just that your to busy to come talk with us then really you should get someone as a go between to do the talking and support for you on the boards because it's really needed.

For this aside about support on the forums... The forum is really intended as a user-to-user forum, not as an "official" means of technical support -- and I've been trying to point people towards contacting tech support instead of only posting here. Unless no one has said anything to tech support, I would imagine that they are aware of things and would say/release something publicly if there were a fix. There was a new DLL posted for some tuning problems, for example. (Wow -- I've posted that link often enough that I remembered the post number!)

Edit: Right after writing this, I saw this post containing a comment from someone who just tried a test DLL that allowed an ehome & 250 to work together. Unless more things need to be worked on for it, perhaps it will be released soon. End Edit.

I know that both Jeff & Dan used to participate in the forum more quite a while back, but with a growing business, my guess would be that increased business would leave less time to dedicate to the forum. They have stated in the past that they no longer have the time to read every forum post. So, for technical support, see the link in my sig lines. Also, I believe the moderators try to keep an eye on the discussions and let Frey know about issues that crop up (I know I do).

- Andy

[insomniac]

This is the direction that I spoke of in previous threads, and was chastised for it. It happened to be by a couple of biased zealots, but chastised the same...Oh well, another post-promise business decision that I must come to acceptance with or face certain forum exile and riticule

[Hector]

User communities are an extremely effective marketing tool esp. for a company in a niche market without a big budget. A company interested in the end user market would prioritize developing their user community (the oft heard notion 'I'd rather have them writing software' is incredibly naive).

They either don't know how to stimulate sales by developing the community or don't care to. Very hard to believe the former.

Not hard to understand. Outside of games and Intuit, almost nobody makes big mega corp type money targeting the B2C market. Consider how many copies of $80 software you have to sell per month into a niche market to support even a few employees/partners.

I do think it's a mistake to discount it so completely. Many good B2B and OEM opportunities start in the end user community especially for small companies in niche markets. You become a fan of the product and as it turns out you work for XYZ, Inc and you become point man for a sale/opportunity.

peace . . .

Originally Posted by Opus4

I know that both Jeff & Dan used to participate in the forum more quite a while back, but with a growing business, my guess would be that increased business would leave less time to dedicate to the forum. They have stated in the past that they no longer have the time to read every forum post. So, for technical support, see the link in my sig lines. Also, I believe the moderators try to keep an eye on the discussions and let Frey know about issues that crop up (I know I do).

- Andy

[Lucas]

Having read what everybody is saying, I would like to put an opinion down that I think has not been expressed before or at least not expressed clearly.

Frey, with the release of 2.1 seem to have made significant architectural changes. Changes, that if one tries to interpret, could come to some conclusions.

The separation of the UI from the SageTV core for example could be interpreted as:

Frey wanting to safequard/increase its market share by protecting its investment in core technology ie SageTV Service, and allowing 3rd parties to further develop/change/localise the UI.

In the past, the threats to its market position may not have been as clear as they are now. The change of product strategy from the competitor from the North West USA we all know is one of them....

I believe that Frey is entitled to changing their mind and their position. They are in business to make money... they need to respond to market changes.
They need to do this without displeasing their customers too much.....

Studio, given the changes to the SageTV architecture may need modifications/improvements/further tests or re-targetting.

To me it is clear that the finished Studio will be aimed at 3rd Parties who wish to customise the UI of Sage TV without touching the core SageTV technology.
The 3rd parties could be a technical SageTV user who needs to customise SageTV for own use/sharing with others or a company who wants to market a HTPC/PVR/Home Automation solution and needs the kind of technology that SageTV has.

[insomniac]

"They need to do this without displeasing their customers too much....."

And might I say that there lies the problem...

[Crazedz]

Originally Posted by Opus4

For this aside about support on the forums... The forum is really intended as a user-to-user forum, not as an "official" means of technical support -- and I've been trying to point people towards contacting tech support instead of only posting here. Unless no one has said anything to tech support, I would imagine that they are aware of things and would say/release something publicly if there were a fix. There was a new DLL posted for some tuning problems, for example. (Wow -- I've posted that link often enough that I remembered the post number!)

Edit: Right after writing this, I saw this post containing a comment from someone who just tried a test DLL that allowed an ehome & 250 to work together. Unless more things need to be worked on for it, perhaps it will be released soon. End Edit.

I know that both Jeff & Dan used to participate in the forum more quite a while back, but with a growing business, my guess would be that increased business would leave less time to dedicate to the forum. They have stated in the past that they no longer have the time to read every forum post. So, for technical support, see the link in my sig lines. Also, I believe the moderators try to keep an eye on the discussions and let Frey know about issues that crop up (I know I do).

- Andy

Yeah i did post a suport notice to them but i'll have to admit i didn't do it till after that post. I did however notice others who also had posted to the forums who had also posted that they had sent a suport request as well several days before so i was waiting to see how thoughs turned out and got tired of waiting. Curse my impatients.

The new dll worked for me but i did notice another who is still having probs with a 350/250 combo. Im sure they'll get that taken care of soon though.

[mostlyfodder]

Originally Posted by flashbacck

No damnit! I want you to acknowledge I'm right!



If we were talking about an official release, then yes, I'd agree releasing a difficult-to-use studio would probably not be the best idea.

Obviously studio does work. And given the option of waiting a few months for an official release, or taking a "beta" one, I'll take take the beta.

Now, AGREE WITH ME!

............um............



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well..



..
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nope!

[mostlyfodder]

hi- i've created a handy macro for continued posts to this thread (which has been very interesting.) i hope it helps:


In sum, i think [macro speculate] and then they [macro frey developer] will move to [canada] and [insert feature request] before [insert competitor name] and should create [insert bug report/request fix] prior to [insert new release date] if they want to [insert method of losing customer] and avoid [macro method of bankruptcy] notify [bill gates] sell [macro studio release date] without affecting [macro favorite studio java question] the kitchen sink before returning from [macro insert canada or other country] to make the best PVR app this side of the [insert favorite geographic border].

-fodder

[billeR]

Damn, I'm one of those people who did buy sagetv because of the promise of studio. Oh wel..

By the way, it looks like SlimD was right after all. All apologies....

http://forums.freytechnologies.com/f...ight=vaporware

[r00st3r]

Wow that one was back in Jan 2004 and now we are at the end of November..isn't that almost a year?? Whatever.........

[broderp]

when was that?

[reverse]

Frey has a good underlying product. Community support is what will take this product to a 'must have'. I am sure there are reasons for not releasing studio, however I am disappointed that the creativity of the entire sage community cannot be integrated into this product. Hope to see this in the future. The STVs released so far have been outstanding, and I look forward to seeing more. I will admit that the studio release isn't high on my list since I would not be able to develop within anyways, but it would be great to see what all comes of the release.

[broderp]

This is complete CRAP!

I BOUGHT STUDIO BECAUSE of the promise of STUDIO coming down the pipes "in a few months"

I bought NEW HARDWARE (See my SIG!) IT WAS ALL FOR SAGE TV!!! otherwise I should have stayed with my ATI setup that worked for me!

Now DAN is speaking like he has his attorney sitting next to him as he types.

Yes, it's nice that those who have the program share, but you know what, IT'S NOT THE SAME. I want a skin MY way, and a HATE HATE haveing to live with someone elses idea of what THEY think is important.

Thants not what I was sold on. I think those of use who bought into this during the time frame mentioned should have access to this program as is, to satisfy your word to us when we bought this program. All NEW buyers can wait for a non-existant product.....JUST don't promise them they will have it and you will be FINE.