Studio Release

[flashbacck]

Originally Posted by Cayars

What do you need that isn't all ready available?

I don't understand why YOU don't understand why people aren't satisfied with what's available.

[kny3twalker]

I'm happy to say, I love, Weather, WRS, Traffic, RSS, and am really looking forward to Movie Listings. Anything that can make the home theater experience more useful is important to someone or even many. I'm OK with everyone wanting their own personal customized Sage to the nth degree, but don't discourage the development of other valuable stuff to some of us just to feed an insatiable desire for Studio by calling it stupid stuff, thus inferring no one is interested.

I will in the future generalize less
but without good functionality and good presentation
this is not that impressive for me

the appearance of the package is just as important as the features in my opinion
and since SageTV's current UI is rather basic
it leaves alot of room to improve on the appearance

not that, I do not enjoy some of these extra features
but I use few of them
and the ones I do use are more related to increasing my pvr's abilities rather than adding the news or funnies

[ckron]

Originally Posted by nielm

No you didnt - you paid for sageTV and the feature set it was delivered with.

Anyway, this thead will make no difference... It will get released when Frey decides to release it, and no sooner.

Whatever Nielm. That is easy for someone who has Studio to say.

Maybe you should go back and read the previous posts in this thread. Jeff was quoted as saying that Studio was a PART of SageTV. This is no different than the EPG. Would be OK if they didn't give us that too?

[mightyt]

Originally Posted by kny3twalker

I will in the future generalize less
but without good functionality and good presentation
this is not that impressive for me

the appearance of the package is just as important as the features in my opinion
and since SageTV's current UI is rather basic
it leaves alot of room to improve on the appearance

not that, I do not enjoy some of these extra features
but I use few of them
and the ones I do use are more related to increasing my pvr's abilities rather than adding the news or funnies

Agreed ... Improvements are always good and I never object to looking over the fence. I just never prioritize for others ... they say one mans junk, well you know ...

Since Sage is just at V.2 I expect many UI improvements over time, but for now STV's and plug-in add-ons sure do add a lot of fun and functionality !!

Oh, and thanks for the understanding and civil reply ... one never knows what to expect ...

T.

[ckron]

Originally Posted by Cayars

I agree 100% with what Nielm just said. When you purchase/license software you are getting nothing more then what is already developed and released.

Future plans/releases have no meaning what so ever (except for good-faith) from a legal standpoint. Anything & everything could change in the future.

What I said above is null and void if there is a contract or license agreement that says otherwise, which isn't the case with SageTV.

Any additional updates, modifications or newer additions of software is totally up to the developer/company including bug fixes. When you buy/license software a company has no legal requirement to even fix anything that is wrong with it (bugs) as you bought it AS IS.

Not pretty, but true

Surprise surprise! Another Studio holder putting down our cry for Frey to step up to the plate and do what is right.

I don't care about the legality of the situation. If Frey wants users to stand by them as loyal customers, then they need to do the moraly correct thing and stand by their word.

[mightyt]

OK ... Surprise ... I don't have Studio and to me the cry has turned to whine. It's time to let it go ... Is there a therapist on this forum?

It's all been said 1000 times ... can we give it a rest and start talking PVR technology?? Hmmm ...

We all got it ... The whole planet is pissed because Frey didn't give Studio to everyone. We all saw Dan's response ... Now, let it go ...

Sorry, I don't mean to sound condescending, it's just that really ... what else can be said? And whatever difference it's going to make is either in the works or we just wait some more.

There are worse things in life than not having Studio ... really, there are ... really

T.

[bigjohn]

I too purchased Sage on the understanding that Studio would be released with ver 2.0 and I agree that it was stupid on my part. So for whatever the reason it was not released don't expect me to be happy about it!

[korben_dallas]

I did not even know what Studio was until I read through this thread. Frey's forum statements plus the advertisement web page do tend to reveal that Frey has done a turnabout on releasing Studio. I would encourage those who purchased Sage because (in part or full) of Studio to send Frey an email letting them know their dissapointment and potential feeling of being mislead.

I am very happy with Sage, but there are things I would like to change.. and an SDK would be welcome, in whatever state it may be.

[nielm]

Look at Dans mail way way above... He DID NOT say: "hey guys, you know that studio thing, well you are not going to get it, EVER!!" (and then exit sage left laughing evilly).
His phrasing was vague, but this entire thread is an example of why that was the case: people take forum comments, read between the lines, take them as definite commitments, and then get upset when they are not met ("but they PROMISED").


Korben dallas: I suspect that Frey already know that there are a lot of users out there that would like access to Studio... I doubt that mailbombing them will help (and may even have the opposite effect)...


Ckron: "Studio was a PART of SageTV. This is no different than the EPG" Bad analogy dude: without the EPG Sage would be completely unuseable.

Let me throw a bad analogy back at you
I looking at buying a house... I want cable TV -- the neighborhood does not yet have it, but I hear that it will come soon, so I buy it anyway... A few months down the line, I hear that the plans for installing cable have been postponed...


I know this is annoying for you (yes that sounds hollow from someone with access), but I agree with the decision not to release Studio at the moment (and no, I will not say why).

[ToonGal]

Originally Posted by nielm

I doubt that mailbombing them will help (and may even have the opposite effect)...

I know this is annoying for you (yes that sounds hollow from someone with access), but I agree with the decision not to release Studio at the moment (and no, I will not say why).

Would mailbombing you help...?

[Cayars]

Originally Posted by flashbacck

I don't understand why YOU don't understand why people aren't satisfied with what's available.

Well that was my point. A few of us have put in considerable amounts of time to try and give you what you want/need but if you don't tell us then we can't help you.

I was not saying that I don't understand what people would want to do with Studio but that is out of my hands. All I can do is try and help but I need to know what people need/want in order to do so.

Carlo

[korben_dallas]

I was definitely not suggesting mailbombing anyone. But we are consistently told that Frey does not monitor this forum on any regular basis. Yes, I know Frey did respond in this thread, but that does not guarantee they "know" how those individuals feel. A well-thought-out email directly to Frey would convey the concerns and feelings of those people much better than posting in this thread. And if everyone with those concerned emailed individually, speaking for themself only, the cumulative effect would be more powerful than this thread. I'm not saying that anything will change Frey's mind per when (or if) Studio gets released, but they may for example change the way Studio is advertised or perhaps post a clarification of why it appears plans have changed.


"All I can do is try and help but I need to know what people need/want in order to do so. Carlo"

There are Official Feature Request threads in the various forum categories. I would assume the current Studio holders look at these? The only thing is, that the moderators frequently interject that the various features requested will be available with Studio. So are these feature request threads the right place for STV feature requests, or is there a better place?

[Hector]

That's not really a good bad analogy because you've created a third entity with no ties to the original sale, the cable company.

A better example would be you bought the house because the builder said they were going to build sidewalks which was an important enough reason for you to choose that house and then later ignored all your requests to find out why they weren't building them and when they planned to or even IF they planned to.

I personally have no perception that Frey owes me anything but it's clear other people do. Ignoring people that you owe is a patently bad idea whether its money, product, the customer is mistaken or the company has simply changed their mind.

The notion that a company is afraid to say anything because it is misconstrued is absolutely ridiculous. Can you even imagine that as the marketing mission statement? We ignore our customers because they twist what we say?

Why Frey ignores their customer concerns in this area is anyone's guess but no one with a lick of marketing experience would believe it's because their words get twisted. That's just nuts. You'll note that Frey retains a PR firm so they have the skills to craft statements that do not obligate the company, their challenges in that area are no greater than any one else's. And in fact they have an enthusiastic user base who tends to be even more forgiving.

Whatever their plans, the bottom line is that ignoring your customers is NOT very forward thinking. Ignoring upset customers, not cultivating the user community it certainly appears they have lost or changed focus for whatever reason. Maybe they're trying to peddle the technology, who knows.

peace . . .

Originally Posted by nielm

Let me throw a bad analogy back at you
I looking at buying a house... I want cable TV -- the neighborhood does not yet have it, but I hear that it will come soon, so I buy it anyway... A few months down the line, I hear that the plans for installing cable have been postponed...


I know this is annoying for you (yes that sounds hollow from someone with access), but I agree with the decision not to release Studio at the moment (and no, I will not say why).

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by korben_dallas

But we are consistently told that Frey does not monitor this forum on any regular basis.

It depends on what is meant by 'regular basis'. While Jeff and Dan may or may not have time to read everything posted to the forum, they do see/hear about major issues that crop up here. I, for one, try to keep an eye on happenings around here & point them towards some topics just in case they haven't yet seen them.

Yes, I know Frey did respond in this thread, but that does not guarantee they "know" how those individuals feel.

I'm fairly certain that they are _quite_ aware of the entire Studio issue and how people feel about it. Dan made his post earlier in this thread regarding Frey's position on the topic. I doubt there is anything left that they could say to make anyone feel better about the decision; all there is to say is that they've decided it isn't ready for public release.

A couple other comments:

As for ignoring customers... what do you want? Perhaps a personal post to say "not yet" to everyone who asks about Studio? It seems like it can only be said so many times & if the story doesn't change, what's the point of posting a reply to every single post? Frey's answer was already posted.

Finally, as for cultivating the community... A small group of users have been invited into the private testing group, enabling them to help the rest of the community by adding customizations. Since Frey has decided that Studio is not ready for "prime time" for whatever reason, I would think this is at least a good first step towards helping the community as a whole. Is this a satisfactory answer for everyone? Obviously not, but it is the answer for the time being.

- Andy

[mightyt]

Originally Posted by Opus4

It depends on what is meant by 'regular basis'. While Jeff and Dan may or may not have time to read everything posted to the forum, they do see/hear about major issues that crop up here. I, for one, try to keep an eye on happenings around here & point them towards some topics just in case they haven't yet seen them.

I'm fairly certain that they are _quite_ aware of the entire Studio issue and how people feel about it. Dan made his post earlier in this thread regarding Frey's position on the topic. I doubt there is anything left that they could say to make anyone feel better about the decision; all there is to say is that they've decided it isn't ready for public release.

A couple other comments:

As for ignoring customers... what do you want? Perhaps a personal post to say "not yet" to everyone who asks about Studio? It seems like it can only be said so many times & if the story doesn't change, what's the point of posting a reply to every single post? Frey's answer was already posted.

Finally, as for cultivating the community... A small group of users have been invited into the private testing group, enabling them to help the rest of the community by adding customizations. Since Frey has decided that Studio is not ready for "prime time" for whatever reason, I would think this is at least a good first step towards helping the community as a whole. Is this a satisfactory answer for everyone? Obviously not, but it is the answer for the time being.

- Andy

Ahhh .... the voice of reason ... There is hope for the universe !!!!

My faith is restored ... Hey Andy, heard any good jokes lately ...

T.

[kny3twalker]

I doubt you are going to get studio kissing up to Opus4
but maybe

[mightyt]

Originally Posted by kny3twalker

I doubt you are going to get studio kissing up to Opus4
but maybe

Hmmm ... Kissing up ... Maybe you didn't get it ... To me, Studio would be nice ... "but" it's not my lifelong desire. You make way too much of it ...

I think it's great to bring it up, as you have ... but eventually let it go ... I tend to get more excited about things I have, than things I can't. The alternative is that you miss too many other things ... and end up frustrated, as I believe you are.

Seeing the forest through the trees, I restate what I said ... The voice of reason ... Guess you haven't noticed, I happen to gravitate in that direction.

So, maybe the weary alternative is to now go after those that have Studio since we have exhausted Frey brow beating. But then again maybe there are a few more beatings left ... I so look forward to them ... OK, I admit a little sarcasm there ... My apologies ...

But perspective helps ... I'll probably someday bounce a grandkid on my knee and tell them I remember a day when we built our own PVR's, not complained without end because we could not have Studio ...

I'm getting too philosophical so will quit while I'm ahead ...

BTW ... kny3twalker ... heard any good jokes lately ...

T.

[Hector]

I don't think you understand what is meant by cultivating the user community. That observation has little to do with Studio per se. Sage is in a niche market with a limited marketing budget and there is a lot to be gained by aggressively working the user community as a whole be it here or any other of the HTPC, PVR type of forums etc. Whatever they currently are, it would take very little effort to increase their sales and obviously they know that.

We don't work the community on the internet because we don't have the time and we don't talk about our products because it might be misunderstood and used against us. That's absurd and surely no one really expects it to be believed. Exactly what do you think the non-development task list for a B2C internet company includes if its not marketing your product?

These are very bright guys, I certainly don't mean to suggest they don't know what they're doing. But I've been around the block too and I know what they're not doing. Right now from the outside looking in this is a company treading water on the non-development side. Grand plan yet unrevealed, loss of focus, pursuing B2B deals, trying to get funded, had to get a day job, or trying to cash out you could speculate forever. But what IS clear is that they are not putting any real effort into increasing end user sales.

So despite the thin smoke screen we know what they're not doing so now lets wildly speculate. If I am not mistaken Dan is a finance guy who came up in the dot.com gold rush era and you can be sure he has no aspirations of selling our children's children copies of SageTv. His goal is to make Frey the company as valuable as possible and leverage that in the most profitable way possible. That may or may not entail selling copies of Studio or even SageTv to end users. Obviously I don't know anything about Studio but from what I can gather it's snooping around one of the Holy Grails, allowing non programmers not only to control how the interface looks but how the interface works. Remember the notion that the user can change anything that can be changed. Several entities (one I was part of included) have made runs at that prize - Amulet, Apple/IBM's Taligent, F1 Foundation, Java RealProducer SDK (j/k because of course you read the forums. Object oriented rapid application development. Depending on what it really is it could be a whole lot bigger than SageTv. But this is a pretty big task for even an ubercoder and I expect there are some issues getting it to the point a non-developer can use it effectively and I expect one of those issues is that it would take forever. The delta between a programmer usable app and a 'Joe User' usable app is monstrous. Notice how all the testers are developers not the average user the product is supposedly targeting. Again wildly speculating I would be looking to leverage what I had while my head was still above water and probably the worst way of doing that would be to give everyone a free copy of it. Not only would it dilute the value of the technology it would probably be a nightmare to support end users since it might begin with a Java For Dummies book. That probably seemed like a good idea when it was right around the corner and geared towards the non developer but every really good visionary I've ever met stinks at estimating how long their project will take. If the previous business plan including a end user level Studio and that actually happened that would be a very compelling advantage for Sage. I expect that 'end user' usable piece is the nasty bit that's not working out quite as expected so now how to leverage that is the question. If they are moving towards targeting OEMS that might not be so much by choice as necessity.

In any case this is of course wild speculation. What is clear is that they are placing very little value on increasing their end user base moving forward. Maybe they're eyeing some of the VC money that's staring to loosen up but its hard to get a B2C funded esp in a niche market plus I'm not sure they're at a fundable stage. Anyway as far as the end users are concerned for whatever reason they're treading water on the non-dev side. No doubt they're smart guys, but it's an interesting problem even given the limited info we forum monkeys have. It will be interesting to see how it plays out, but I'd be pretty surprised if there's free Studio for everyone at the end of the rainbow. There's a lot of reasons I wouldn't do it not the least of which is that there is no money in it plus there's a lot of dev time to recoup, probably more than was planned on. Additionally competition is heating up and they've spent their time on their dev environment and that could have been spent moving the core product forward. Now the payoff should be that 3rd parties can move the product forward ahead of the competition and we've already seen some strong evidence of that with the cool stuff people are able to do. But it doesn't seem to yet be the rapid application development tool for non developers and supporting development tools is a nightmare even when the customers are developers.

Or maybe we can download it tomorrow and clone our Tivo's just for fun by supper.

peace . . .

Originally Posted by Opus4

It depends on what is meant by 'regular basis'. While Jeff and Dan may or may not have time to read everything posted to the forum, they do see/hear about major issues that crop up here. I, for one, try to keep an eye on happenings around here & point them towards some topics just in case they haven't yet seen them.

I'm fairly certain that they are _quite_ aware of the entire Studio issue and how people feel about it. Dan made his post earlier in this thread regarding Frey's position on the topic. I doubt there is anything left that they could say to make anyone feel better about the decision; all there is to say is that they've decided it isn't ready for public release.

A couple other comments:

As for ignoring customers... what do you want? Perhaps a personal post to say "not yet" to everyone who asks about Studio? It seems like it can only be said so many times & if the story doesn't change, what's the point of posting a reply to every single post? Frey's answer was already posted.

Finally, as for cultivating the community... A small group of users have been invited into the private testing group, enabling them to help the rest of the community by adding customizations. Since Frey has decided that Studio is not ready for "prime time" for whatever reason, I would think this is at least a good first step towards helping the community as a whole. Is this a satisfactory answer for everyone? Obviously not, but it is the answer for the time being.

- Andy

[kny3twalker]

BTW ... kny3twalker ... heard any good jokes lately ...

ok at first I was going to probably get my posted deleted here
but then I see you are doing this more and more

what's the deal?

and personally I doubt there would be much I could do with studio
if I did eventually learn how to use it, great
but I still refuse to sit back and say what Frey is doing is right nor to defend the people with studio that are acting how they are (not all of them let me add that)
quite a few of them just keep using Studio and producing quality work rather than defending what Frey has done

and even if that is not what you said
that is sure how it seems

[flashbacck]

Originally Posted by Cayars

Well that was my point. A few of us have put in considerable amounts of time to try and give you what you want/need but if you don't tell us then we can't help you.

I was not saying that I don't understand what people would want to do with Studio but that is out of my hands. All I can do is try and help but I need to know what people need/want in order to do so.

Carlo

Well, I think there are so many menu variations, skins and options that people want to change, that it's completely unrealistic to relay them to you guys and expect you to understand and implement them. So they want to do it themselves.