Service mode is a bad design

[pengdahl]

After spending the past two days trying to get my new network server to be recognized by sage, I've come (reluctantly) to the following conclusion:

Service mode is bad and should be replaced by a tray icon.

My reasons:
Service mode has the following advantages:

1. Can run while no user is logged in.

Running the server as a tray icon (auto-started when a user logs in) would have these advantages:

1. Like service mode, it wouldn't crash when the client UI does.
2. Ability to access both UNC shares and mapped drives.
3. No need to create a separate user with a password - it would run as the
same user that the client does.
4. No need to give the user permission to run in service mode.
5. No need to run as "LocalSystem" and (manually!) select the option
"Allow service to interact with desktop" in order to get the ExeMultiTuner
plugin to work.
6. Ability to use both the ExeMultiTuner plugin and network shares at the
same time - currently impossible with the service.
7. Easy and intuitive interface (tray icon) for making changes to server
settings.

Perhaps it would be worth keeping service mode so that it can be run on
a computer without the user logged in, but for everything else, I would very
much prefer to see a tray icon. My $0.02.

[Narflex]

There is a tray icon. In Detailed Setup->Advanced there's an option to load SageTV at startup in the system tray. Then you can just run "SageTV.exe -client" to connect to the local SageTV session that's already running if you want to keep the UI separate from the backend instead of running it all in one process.

[Blue]

Service mode also allows for recovery in case there is a failure.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by pengdahl

After spending the past two days trying to get my new network server to be recognized by sage, I've come (reluctantly) to the following conclusion:

Service mode is bad and should be replaced by a tray icon.

My reasons:
Service mode has the following advantages:

1. Can run while no user is logged in.

Running the server as a tray icon (auto-started when a user logs in) would have these advantages:

1. Like service mode, it wouldn't crash when the client UI does.

But what happens when you want to log off, or what happens if you don't log on? What happens if (in some unlikely case) it crashes, how will it be restarted?

2. Ability to access both UNC shares and mapped drives.

That there is really the only benefit. But what's the problem with using UNC paths?

3. No need to create a separate user with a password - it would run as the same user that the client does.

What's the big deal with that? I created a Sage user on my server and Sage runs under that.

4. No need to give the user permission to run in service mode.
5. No need to run as "LocalSystem" and (manually!) select the option
"Allow service to interact with desktop" in order to get the ExeMultiTuner
plugin to work.

I don't run mine as localsystem, and while I've never tried any of the exetuner plugins, I've never had to "Allow service to..."

7. Easy and intuitive interface (tray icon) for making changes to server settings.

That has nothing to do with Sage running as a service or not.

Perhaps it would be worth keeping service mode so that it can be run on a computer without the user logged in, but for everything else, I would very
much prefer to see a tray icon. My $0.02.

You know you can turn off service mode. Personally for the backend stuff, I think a service is the best place for it to run.

[pengdahl]

Originally Posted by Narflex

There is a tray icon. In Detailed Setup->Advanced there's an option to load SageTV at startup in the system tray. Then you can just run "SageTV.exe -client" to connect to the local SageTV session that's already running if you want to keep the UI separate from the backend instead of running it all in one process.

This sounds like exactly what I want. I didn't know you could do this, so I guess my rant is a little off base. However, I stand by some of the things I said about service mode - particularly about the overall difficulty of getting it to work with network shares.

Another issue I ran into dealing with the service was a little more strange - for some reason, if I run the service as a different user than the one I log in with, and then open the "TV Guide" screen, the server process jumps up to 100% cpu usage and stays there until I stop it with the task manager. This happened even with a "fresh" install of the beta 3.0.11. My final solution that worked was to run the server and client with the same account. This didn't seem to have anything to do with network shares - it would happen even if I hadn't configured them. Is this a bug?

[owilsky]

When I have the service running and I start SageTV.exe without any arguments, it there any difference to running "SageTV.exe -client" ?
Is SageTV run with the -client argument if I select "Full Screen" for "Load at Windows Startup" under detailed setup ?

I encountered some crashes in 3.0.11 and the service mode could solve this because it automatically restarts the service when it crashes......

Oliver

[Opus4]

If the optional service is in use, the UI is automatically run in client mode.

- Andy

[Necro]

One of the big reasons I LIKE sage is service mode. They have everything else you said - service mode is an option (unless something changed in v3) that you don't need to use.

[Goodspike]

I agee with Necro. Service mode is a great feature, IMHO. If you don't like it, don't use it.

[jptaz]

I swithed to service mode recently, because of the auto restart on crash feature.

I have been using SageTV 2.2.7 in the system tray since it was released and I can not not remember the last time it crashed or failed to record something (Since at least Janruary of 2005), not too bad for a 6 tuner box that services 2 MediaMVPs and 3 PC clients.

Well on Thursday this week it crashed at 7:58 PM and I did not realize it until 9:00 PM since I watched Alias in live HD. Had it restarted automatically as the service does I would not have missed recording Joey, Will and Grace, Alias(I know I watched), Everyone Hates Chris, The Apprentice Martha Stewart (Re recorded later thanks CNBC). I also missed the beginning of the Apprentice, and Everwood. Thankfully my friend has sageTV as well and I grabbed a couple of the recordings from him.

John

[michelkenny]

Just to mention that I've never had any problems with service mode whatsoever. I even run the service under my normal user that I log into Windows and can access UNC paths without any problem.

[edgley]

I have nothing but service problems. I really wish I could use this mode Sage crashes so often.
I am going to have a go with the suggestion at the start of the thread and see if thats better.

[mkanet]

I can't help but smile and shake my head every time I see this thread's title.

[Goodspike]

This is the thread that makes me shake my head:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=587653

[Wheemer]

I'd have to agree that this threads title is so far from reality it's mind blowing. I would have to say that service mode is the number one best feature of Sage in my mind. I have been using it since I switched to Sage from BTV.

I love the fact that I have never missed a recording because of sage. The ui may freeze or quit on me, but the service is rock solid and always works.

That guy posting on AVS is not well... He must work for ATI or something, cause I've never heard anyone so in love with that POS MMC crap that ATI offers.

[pengdahl]

Originally Posted by Wheemer

I'd have to agree that this threads title is so far from reality it's mind blowing. I would have to say that service mode is the number one best feature of Sage in my mind. I have been using it since I switched to Sage from BTV.

If you read my initial post you'd see why the thread has its title. I'm not suggesting getting rid of the advantages of service mode - I'm suggesting a different design that would be, in my opinion, more functional.

Originally Posted by Wheemer

I love the fact that I have never missed a recording because of sage. The ui may freeze or quit on me, but the service is rock solid and always works.

Running Sage server as a tray process and then running Sage client as a client process would accomplish the same goal, while allowing the server process much greater access to system and network resources. The only advantages you lose are the ability to run the server without logging in, and the auto-restart functionality built into service mode (although this could still be done with a process-watcher).

I would even go so far as to say that I think having a separate client and server process should be the *default* operating mode for sage. There really is no good excuse for having both server and client run in a single process so that the server crashes when the client does.

I've been using Sage since 1.4, and I've been using service mode for several years now. So far I have never once had the service crash for any reason. Before you quote me and say "see! service mode is great" - notice what this really means: the Sage server is stable. The client is not. This is part of why I would feel comfortable running the server as a tray process. Apparently you can - you learn something every day - but it isn't the default.

My comments relating to the difficulty of setting up network access with service mode stem more from my desire to see Sage become the best, most functional, and *easiest to use* PVR software out there than from my personal frustrations. Since I consider myself to be fairly savvy when it comes to networks, the fact that it took me so long to get network access running in Sage tells me that it would be nearly impossible for a "normal" user to do it. Therefore, I think it might be worth examining the design, even if that means making some large changes.

[wazkaren]

Originally Posted by Narflex

Then you can just run "SageTV.exe -client" to connect to the local SageTV session that's already running if you want to keep the UI separate from the backend instead of running it all in one process.

I tried this but the second instance of SageTV (the one I start with the -client parameter) tells me I need a second license. Can't I do this on the same machine with just the one license?

I want to do this because I've discovered that opening and using the Sage UI while recording digital from my A180 can cause glitches in the recording. I want to experiment with keeping the UI in a seperate process and then boost the priority of the recording process to "high"

Thanks,
Greg

[Opus4]

Are you running both instances from the same directory? That's how it should be run.

How do you have things set up? You should have 1 installation of SageTV & run both instances from the same place.

- Andy

[wazkaren]

Yes running both from same directory. I have Sage set to start in the system tray. And I have a shortcut that I run with "SageTV.exe -client".

I noticed that when the -client instance comes up the splash screen says SageTVClient, even though I'm running SageTV. At one time in the past I had installed and run the Client demo on this machine. Could it see that SageTVClient demo version has expired?

Greg

[Opus4]

Yes, it would say SageTV Client on the splash screen (at least mine does), but I don't know whether an old client trial could affect things, since it shouldn't need to be there at all. You could contact SageTV to see what they have to say about the license issue.

Did the client's trial run from the same dir in the past? Try deleting (or renaming) any existing sageclient.properties file & its autobackup, then restart.

- Andy