Doesn't STOP after end of show - plays next

[astribli]

We have Sage set to record Amazing Race, which was on 8-9 PM tonight, then afterwards, The Apprentice which was on from 9-10.

At the end of Amazing Race, I fast forward the last couple of minutes to get to the end. I expected it to them ask if I want to delete it (I have ALWAYS ASK turned on).

Instead it just started playing The Apprentice. At the end of Apprentice, it just started playing Seinfield (which was also set to record).

So, the question is, is this a defect?
Why doesn't it ask me at the end of the Amazing Race?
Why didn't it ask me at the end of Apprentice?

[GKusnick]

The automatic track-through behavior is by design. When watching live TV this is presumably what you want. Since in Sage all live TV is recorded, you get track-through whenever you watch a show that's still in the process of being recorded.

[astribli]

Thanks for the explanation but unfortunately, it is presuming wrong. I am not watching live TV, I am watching shows I have recorded.

We were NOT planning on watching The Apprentice as soon as we finished watching Amazing Race. We were going to watch something else.

What's worse is at the end of Amazing Race, there were about 3 minutes of commercials, as there at the end of most shows. I hit FF2 several times thinking I was going to skip to the end so I could delete it. Instead it fast forwarded a few minutes into Apprentice! Wife was none too happy about that !

I want to:

1. Choose what show to watch
2. At the end of the show, have the option to delete it
3. Return to the menu and let me choose what to do next

Sage should NOT be presuming to know what I want to do next. Just because it is recording one show after the other does NOT mean I am going to watch them one after the other.

In addition, when I set the option "ASK to delete every time" (or whatever it is called), that is what I expect it to do.

How do I turn this "feature" off?

[GKusnick]

Yes, I get that this isn't what you expected, but here's the thing. Suppose on a sudden whim you decided you did want to watch Apprentice after Amazing Race after all, without having scheduled a recording of it ahead of time. (Unlikely, I know, but bear with me.) But somewhere along the way you paused playback of Amazing Race long enough so that by the time you got to the end of it, Apprentice had already started. Wouldn't you then miss the first few minutes of Apprentice? No, because Sage has been clever and kept on recording that channel after the end of Amazing Race, just in case you want to track through to the next show.

The point is that it's not presuming that you will want to watch that next show. It's just being conservative and capturing it in case you might want to watch it (and the way it does that is by keeping open a playback stream on it). It's giving you the option of watching it, which you wouldn't have if it stopped playback and returned you to the Recordings menu (because the unscheduled recording would disappear as soon as the playback stream closed). If you decide you don't want that option, it's easy enough to hit Stop on the remote.

Don't get me wrong; it's not like I'm a big fan of this feature myself (although my wife uses it fairly frequently to catch the beginning of the 11:00 news). I'm just saying there are reasons why it is the way it is. It may be that there's a property setting to turn this feature off completely, but if so, I don't know what it's called. I just use the Stop button myself.

As for why it doesn't give you the Delete popup, I'm guessing that's an unintended side-effect of the fact that the playback stream remains open. File a bug report on it if it really bothers you.

[astribli]

Well, we come from the world of Tivo and are used to its methods, just like millions of other people. Tivo has a 1/2 hour buffer. If you pause live TV, after 1/2 hour, it just starts playing again always 1/2 hour behind real time. No big deal. If the program is also being recorded because you want it to be, then it just sits there at that point in time frozen because you are actually watching the playback stream, not the live tv stream.

To me, the way Sage has this live TV follow through is a defect because without knowing, you can fast forward through the end of one show and all of a sudden you are into another show. Depending on the show, that can disastrous.

Lets use another example instead of Amazing Race and Apprentice. Suppose you are watching show A, then want to watch Show B. Suppose Show B is football or some other sport. You finish up watching show A, hit Fast Forward to zip through the remaining commercials and all of a sudden, blamo, you are into the football game and already know the score!

That's bad !

IMHO, software should do what the user asks. I couldn't care less about what happens to live TV. If I don't schedule something to record, oh well.

I do care when all of a sudden it plays something I didn't ask for.

Thanks for the details. Sounds like you have a ton of experience with Sage and I appreciate your time. How do you submit a bug report? Is that the same as asking for support?

[nielm]

As you are from the Tivo world, consider that sage has an infinite buffer (or rather as large as your disk space...) If you are watching a show that is still airing, Sage considers that you are watching delayed live TV, and will continue to record it... Won't the same thing happen with TiVo if your show duration is shorter than the buffer?

The real question is, why are you FFw'ing beyond the end of the show that you have finished watching? If it is to get the 'delete file' dialog, there are 2 easier ways to do this:

1) map the 'delete' command to an unused button on your remote (very useful IMHO)
or
2) use my 'Multi Function Stop' plugin -- when you press the Stop button on a recording, you are given options to delete the program (among others).

Also consider that Sage has advanced automatic deletion rules: you can just leave that watched show on disk and let sage delete it automatically when it needs space.

[jkohn]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

Yes, I get that this isn't what you expected, but here's the thing. Suppose on a sudden whim you decided you did want to watch Apprentice after Amazing Race after all, without having scheduled a recording of it ahead of time. (Unlikely, I know, but bear with me.) But somewhere along the way you paused playback of Amazing Race long enough so that by the time you got to the end of it, Apprentice had already started. Wouldn't you then miss the first few minutes of Apprentice? No, because Sage has been clever and kept on recording that channel after the end of Amazing Race, just in case you want to track through to the next show.

I get what you're saying, and I guess maybe it makes sense if someone is watching Live TV, or Live TV that's on a delay because it was paused. However, I don't think this behavior makes sense for a scheduled recording, even if that recording happens to be in progress when you start watching it. It's just not intuitive behavior and I'm guessing I'm not the only one who finds it a bit annoying.

[jkohn]

Originally Posted by nielm

As you are from the Tivo world, consider that sage has an infinite buffer (or rather as large as your disk space...) If you are watching a show that is still airing, Sage considers that you are watching delayed live TV, and will continue to record it... Won't the same thing happen with TiVo if your show duration is shorter than the buffer?

Not if it's a scheduled recording. And there's no reason SageTV can't differentiate between a scheduled recording that happens to be in progress versus "Live TV".

The real question is, why are you FFw'ing beyond the end of the show that you have finished watching?

I'm sure he didn't mean to. Like me, he has SageTV set up to prompt for deletion when you hit the end of a recording. I find this behavior quite convenient.

1) map the 'delete' command to an unused button on your remote (very useful IMHO)
or

I don't need to take up another button on my remote for this, the current behavior is quite satisfactory when it works ("live" scheduled recordings being the only real exception).

2) use my 'Multi Function Stop' plugin -- when you press the Stop button on a recording, you are given options to delete the program (among others).

But this won't work the way you expect it to if you've already "crossed" into the next recording, you won't be deleting the file that you think you are.

Also consider that Sage has advanced automatic deletion rules: you can just leave that watched show on disk and let sage delete it automatically when it needs space.

I delete files when I'm finished watching them. Leaving a bunch of files laying around for automatic deletion once the disk gets full is a bad idea IMHO, because this is a recipe for disk fragmentation. And I've found that fragementation can have a big impact on how smoothly HD recordings go, especially multiple simultaneous HD recordings. Also, I'd never want SageTV to delete an unwatched recording behind my back so I have Auto-deletion disabled on all my favorites.

[nielm]

he said:

Originally Posted by astribli

I hit FF2 several times thinking I was going to skip to the end so I could delete it.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by jkohn

Not if it's a scheduled recording. And there's no reason SageTV can't differentiate between a scheduled recording that happens to be in progress versus "Live TV".

The difference is that Tivo is a single-box, single-user system with a fixed UI. Sage is a multi-user client/server system feeding any number of screens. User A might start watching Amazing Race from the Recordings menu, but User B might get there from the Program Guide. They're both watching the same (scheduled) recording, but as far as B is concerned it's live TV and had better behave that way. Since the UI is handled by the client (and can be arbitrarily customized), the server has no idea what behavior you're expecting and therefore has to treat any playback of a recording in progress as live TV playback, regardless of whether it's a scheduled recording or what screen you used to initiate playback.

Conceivably there could be an option to turn this feature off globally at the server, so that no user gets track-through even when watching live TV. The downside to that idea is that sitting down and tuning the channel five minutes before a program starts wouldn't work; you'd just get dumped back to the Recordings list five minutes later when the previous program ends. If such an option exists already, I'm not aware of it.

[cummings66]

Personally I like the feature as it works now, more than once it's saved the ending of a show for me. I'll often start watching my favorite while it's airing and sometimes the shows run long. If it quit recording exactly when it should as I'm watching it then I'd miss the ending. By assuming I'm on livetv which in a way I am I get it all, and then when I'm done I hit stop and move on. If something else is scheduled to record it'll ask if it's ok to change the channel which is nice.

Honestly, I think it's a great way to handle the situation and it makes sense.

[dflachbart]

Originally Posted by cummings66

Personally I like the feature as it works now, more than once it's saved the ending of a show for me. I'll often start watching my favorite while it's airing and sometimes the shows run long. If it quit recording exactly when it should as I'm watching it then I'd miss the ending. By assuming I'm on livetv which in a way I am I get it all, and then when I'm done I hit stop and move on. If something else is scheduled to record it'll ask if it's ok to change the channel which is nice.

Honestly, I think it's a great way to handle the situation and it makes sense.

Couldn't agree more...

Dirk

[astribli]

Originally Posted by nielm

As you are from the Tivo world, consider that sage has an infinite buffer (or rather as large as your disk space...) If you are watching a show that is still airing, Sage considers that you are watching delayed live TV, and will continue to record it... Won't the same thing happen with TiVo if your show duration is shorter than the buffer?

The real question is, why are you FFw'ing beyond the end of the show that you have finished watching? If it is to get the 'delete file' dialog, there are 2 easier ways to do this:

1) map the 'delete' command to an unused button on your remote (very useful IMHO)
or
2) use my 'Multi Function Stop' plugin -- when you press the Stop button on a recording, you are given options to delete the program (among others).

Also consider that Sage has advanced automatic deletion rules: you can just leave that watched show on disk and let sage delete it automatically when it needs space.

You misunderstood the fast forward part.

At the end of the show, I was simply fast forwarding to bypass the last couple minutes of commercials. Since I have the option enabled that is supposed to ASK me if I want to delete the show EVERY time, I expect it to ask me if I want to delete it.

The problem is if I fast forward to get to the end of the show, it goes flying right by the end and off into the next show. That is incorrect.

I also agree with jkohn that I shouldn't have to map another button to fix this.

If a show runs long, then pad an extra minute or two on the scheduled recording. That's pretty much what we do with all our "critical" shows on Tivo now and do the same with Sage.

Maybe you all should try to explain to my wife why when she finishes watching Jeopardy and tries to fast forward to the end, all of a sudden she is watching the answers in Wheel of Fortune. Hey, don't knock the shows, that is reality.

1. User watches a Recorded Show
2. Show ends
3. If option set (which it is in my case), Sage asks user if they want to delete it.
4. Sage waits for user response.

5. IF after deleting show, user wants to return to Live TV, then they do and off they go. Live TV and Recorded shows are two separate th

That's pretty simple isn't it????

[heffe2001]

But if you use Neilm's plugin mentioned above, you don't NEED to FF past those commercials, just hit stop, then delete. Problem solved. You don't need to change the way Sage works if you have such a simple solution. I use the SageMC skin on my systems, and this functionality is in there by default (hit stop, and it brings up the menu, go to delete, and your done, and drop back to the main menu). Also remember that Sage is NOT Tivo, so it's not going to work the same as what your used to. And also remember that what is intuitive to you, may not be to others. I like the functionality as-is, I can drop Sage onto the channel a show's coming on before it starts, and away I go. If they were to change it to be like you think it should be, I'd be sitting at a delete prompt when my show starts.

If the system stopped after every show that was on my recorded list, I'd have some very upset family members, and the WAF would be in the basement...

[astribli]

Originally Posted by heffe2001

But if you use Neilm's plugin mentioned above, you don't NEED to FF past those commercials, just hit stop, then delete. Problem solved. You don't need to change the way Sage works if you have such a simple solution. I use the SageMC skin on my systems, and this functionality is in there by default (hit stop, and it brings up the menu, go to delete, and your done, and drop back to the main menu). Also remember that Sage is NOT Tivo, so it's not going to work the same as what your used to. And also remember that what is intuitive to you, may not be to others. I like the functionality as-is, I can drop Sage onto the channel a show's coming on before it starts, and away I go. If they were to change it to be like you think it should be, I'd be sitting at a delete prompt when my show starts.

No you wouldn't. Remember, I am talking about I have the option set that specifically says ASK at the end of EVERY RECORDED show. Since I have that option turned ON, then I expect it to ASK me.

Your Live TV example would still work as you are NOT watching a recorded show, you are just watching live TV, although maybe time delayed, it is still live TV. Two completely different scenarios.

One thing that surprises me is the attitude towards Tivo's here sometimes. Lets face it, there are MILLIONS of Tivo users, and it is a fantastic product, and apparently millions of people agree. To me, Sage is like Tivo + plus a whole lote more, but at the heart of it, it is a PVR. So, wouldn't it make sense to do what Tivo does just as well (reliability is one thing that will be hard to match but that is another subject), and add more capabilities to make it the ultimate PVR ? There have been a couple of times I have mentioned a feature of Tivo and whack, people say who cares about that. If I was the owner of Sage, I would !

Sorry for the rant but that gets pretty frustrating.

Back to the subject at hand. It all boils down to this one option. I have it set to ASK ME EVERY TIME if I want to delete a RECORDED show at the end, but it doesn't. Has nothing to do with how some of you use Live TV buffers.

[camus]

Tivo and Sage are two completely different monsters.

The millions of Tivo users don't use Tivo because of it's UI, the use because it is cheap, easy to set up, premade etc.

I have never owned a Tivo, if I went to from Sage to Tivo, I wouldn't expect Tivo to behave like Sage.

Having never used Tivo, I have no idea what you complaint with Sage's behavior is, that is just from my perspective.

Also, you have been presented with a couple of solutions that are far superior, IMO, than wasting time FF through the remaining commericials of a recording, particularly the 'Multi-function stop' plug-in.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by astribli

Your Live TV example would still work as you are NOT watching a recorded show, you are just watching live TV, although maybe time delayed, it is still live TV. Two completely different scenarios.

They may seem different to you, but under the hood they're the same. In my two-user example above, the same program looks like a recorded show to one user and like live TV to another. You don't even need two TVs to create cases like this. Suppose you sit down to watch live TV. But it just so happens that your wife has set a one-time scheduled recording on the program you're watching. You're unaware of this because you didn't come in through the Recordings list, you came in through the Program Guide, or just by channel surfing. To you it looks like live TV. Are you insisting that in that case Sage should violate your (reasonable) expectations of how live TV should behave and treat it like a scheduled recording instead?

Similar complications arise with the "ask me every time" option. Say you have two users in different rooms watching the same recording. User A finishes first. Should it ask him whether he wants to delete, even though user B isn't finished watching yet? Let's say it does ask, on the principle that A's user experience shouldn't depend on what B is doing elsewhere. A says Yes, delete it. Obviously it can't do that while B is still watching, so it has to wait until B is done. Should B get asked as well? What if B says No, don't delete? Somebody's expectations are going to be violated.

The sensible approach to such situations is to implement the alternative that does the least damage. When in doubt, don't delete. I agree that this can result in some mild annoyance sometimes. But the point is that the answers aren't always as simple as you seem to think. There's nothing wrong with brainstorming possible alternatives, so long as those ideas take into account all the complexities of the situation -- complexities that a single-user, non-customizable Tivo box doesn't have.

[astribli]

I hadn't thought about the scenario of two users watching the same show in different places. However, being a former software developer, I would just assume it would ask the first user if they wanted to delete it. It would know that another user is watching the same show so it would just flag the show for deletion, then wait for the second user and ask them too. If they said no, then it wouldn't delete it. Fairly simple thing to do.

I'll check out the multi-stop thing and see if that satisifies the wife.

[astribli]

Originally Posted by camus

Tivo and Sage are two completely different monsters.

The millions of Tivo users don't use Tivo because of it's UI, the use because it is cheap, easy to set up, premade etc.

I have never owned a Tivo, if I went to from Sage to Tivo, I wouldn't expect Tivo to behave like Sage.

Having never used Tivo, I have no idea what you complaint with Sage's behavior is, that is just from my perspective.

Also, you have been presented with a couple of solutions that are far superior, IMO, than wasting time FF through the remaining commericials of a recording, particularly the 'Multi-function stop' plug-in.

Actually, that is way wrong. Millions of people bought Tivo BECAUSE its user interface is so simple yet powerful. It also wasn't cheap when it first came out, but was so simple to operate (and reliable) it became popular. Even the wife fell in love with it within days because it did EXACTLY what you told it to do. Probably the best UI out there and my point is if you are developing a product in any market, it probably makes sense to look at what the market leader's product does, then improve on it.

[camus]

Millions of people bought Tivo because it superior to a VCR.
The is nothing inherent in the Tivo UI that makes it the "best UI out there", presented with the alternatives given at the time Tivo first become popluar, the UI certainly didn't hurt. They are many other factors that contributed to Tivo's success beyond the UI. I could say the same about my wife with the use of Sage.

The are plenty of threads discussing the relevance of Tivo to the Sage market and I really don't care to get into the discussion. I will say I am curious as to win Tivo became the leader in recording software for your PC or for that matter when did Sage become a hardware manufacturer that charges subscription fees. While there are correlations in the basic PVR concept, their application is very different.