Perfect SageTV server MB for basement?

[valnar]

I've been thinking about how to decentralize my SageTV setup. Right now I have it all on one box connected to my TV. It's a full-ATX sized computer because of all the tuners, heat and connections required to it. It only has a single 250GB hard drive. If I wanted to add more, it would only make it louder. I thought about building a NAS just to supplement the storage and put that in the basement (I have my house cabled with CAT6), but Sage doesn't provide an easy way to record to a remote share, nor would it be that reliable. However, as we all know, watching from a server over the LAN is just fine.

Enter SageTV Client. With this little program that we all know and love, I've decided to build a new server for the basement that will do all the heavy lifting. A SageTV server with a RAID 5 setup, a terabyte of hard drive space, all my tuners, running SageTV, etc. All I will need next to my TV is a small, fast computer running Sage Client and TheaterTek with a small OS drive. Everything else will run over gigabit Ethernet.

So in looking for the "perfect" motherboard, I came up with these requirements:

• Fast. Must be able to take a Core2Duo for whatever transcoding of HD Extenders come along.
• Lots of PCI slots. I have several Hauppauge tuners and may want to add more.
• Sound not needed. Integrated video since it doesn't matter and takes little power.
• PCI Express or PCI-X support for a RAID 5 card.
• At least one, if not two dual Gigabit Ethernet ports integrated, and not sharing bandwidth on the PCI-32 bus.

The motherboard that I found which meets all these requirements is the Supermicro PDSMA+. Newegg has it here.

Since it is a real server board, it supports things like IPMI 2.0 and Supermicro's own Super Doctor III management. It is somewhat the server equivalent of the Intel 975X chipset, which I like better than the newer 965 since it still has real ATA/IDE support. I plan on just using a 40Gb IDE drive with Windows 2003 (running SageTV) and putting all my recordings, DVD's, music and other media on a RAID 5 array with a HighPoint RocketRAID 2220 PCI-X adapter. I'll start with three 500GB SATA drives. That adapter uses up the PCI-X slot (on it's own bus, once again) and frees up the PCI Express slot for some future need. Perhaps tuners will appear for it.

Dual gigabit is great. One for the network, and maybe one for a VLAN with the HDHomeRun tuner, just to keep it separate.... or for some future need.

So there you have it. Now I just need to build it. I don't care how loud it is. It just needs to be powerful, have ample HDD space, record all my shows and serve up some MVP extenders or Sage clients.

PS.
No, I do not work for Supermicro... or Newegg for that matter. I just wanted to share my research with those who are interested. I know it's hard finding a modern C2D motherboard with lots of PCI slots. Most have two or three. In fact, for those of you who need more than three and just want to have it all in one PC, Supermicro also makes a C2D desktop motherboard with four PCI slots. See here. I know of no other MFG with that layout.

-Robert

[stanger89]

Well, two things, first you don't actually need PCI-X for a RAID, most of the controllers I know of will run in PCI-32. You can also get PCIe RAID controllers now.

Second, if you're doing RAID, I'd strongly recommend getting a good, real hardware RAID card, 3ware or Areca.

[valnar]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Well, two things, first you don't actually need PCI-X for a RAID, most of the controllers I know of will run in PCI-32. You can also get PCIe RAID controllers now.

Second, if you're doing RAID, I'd strongly recommend getting a good, real hardware RAID card, 3ware or Areca.

No, I don't need PCI-X, but since I don't need the slot for anything else, I might as well save the PCI-E slot for the future. Also, I wouldn't want to put it in a PCI slot (though it would work). It could saturate the whole PCI bus and potentially starve the tuners.

I could get 3Ware or Areca, but they cost considerably more, and I don't need to worry about horsepower with a C2D. The Highpoint also supports OCE/RLM so I'm covered just as well. It's far better than regular software RAID or Southbridge RAID solutions.


On another note, once I posted the original message, I found this motherboard. Holy crap. 6 PCI slots.
I'll stick with the Supermicro.

-Robert

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by valnar

I could get 3Ware or Areca, but they cost considerably more, and I don't need to worry about horsepower with a C2D.

Horsepower is only part of the reason. The bigger reason is that Highpoint makes low-end controllers, basically glorified IDE/SATA controllers. It's not the kind of equipment I'd trust 7-drives worth of data to.

The Highpoint also supports OCE/RLM so I'm covered just as well. It's far better than regular software RAID or Southbridge RAID solutions.

I'm not so sure. It's basically software RAID with the software part happenning in the drivers.

[valnar]

Originally Posted by stanger89

It's basically software RAID with the software part happenning in the drivers.

Software assisted RAID. A little different, but yes, it uses your primary CPU of which I'll have ample. I'm not booting from it, so any benefits of a pure hardware RAID card are not needed. In fact, the C2D will perform RAID 5 writes just as good as the Intel XOR processors since its faster.
http://www.highpoint-tech.com/USA/rr2220.htm

-Robert

[lobosrul]

Originally Posted by valnar

No, I don't need PCI-X, but since I don't need the slot for anything else, I might as well save the PCI-E slot for the future.

Uh, I dont quite understand your logic here. There are plenty of boards with multiple PCI-e slots. Mine has 2 16x and 2 4x for instance. And IIRC PCI-e boards and cards are way cheaper than PCI-X.

I'm still rather catious about setting up RAID ever again. I had NVIDIA software raid (JBOD) setup for 2 400 GB drives. I wanted to break the raid array and rebuild it with an additional 2 500 GB drives. Well after I broke the raid the data was unreadable.... silly old me. It took about 36 hours, and a $60 program (theres not much out there that will recover data spread across 2 drives) to find and recover the data.

Originally Posted by valnar

Fast. Must be able to take a Core2Duo for whatever transcoding of HD Extenders come along.

HD extenders wont need transcoding. However you might want to do compression, or transcoding for a placeshifter.

[valnar]

Pure software RAID is terrible, and NVidia's implementation is really bad. I have an nForce 3 250GB motherboard myself and only played with it. Fortunately I didn't lose any data. I'm a big 'hardware RAID' kind of guy too, but they are just too costly and I don't need that kind of performance. As long as I can fill up the Gigabit ethernet NIC when needed, any other performance above that is gravy.

Yes, I could easily buy a board with multiple PCI-E slots, and all the major RAID companies have those versions too. I have a need for 4 PCI slots right now, which probably won't go up in the future, but leaves out most regular C2D boards. I could always get the G965 desktop board from Supermicro which is the brother to the P965 PDSBE so that I don't need to waste any slots with video. ASUS has some great workstation boards with loads of PCI-E slots, but they cost just as much if not more. It's still just going to be a server. Also, I'm not sure if I'm going to end up buying the IPMI board, but at least I have that option. It might be useful if something happens to the box when I'm away. I've never used IPMI before, but it appears I can remote control the box in a "bad" state and actually see the BIOS. Can anyone else confirm?

HD extenders wont need transcoding. However you might want to do compression, or transcoding for a placeshifter.

Correct. My bad.

Robert

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by valnar

Pure software RAID is terrible, and NVidia's implementation is really bad. I have an nForce 3 250GB motherboard myself and only played with it. Fortunately I didn't lose any data. I'm a big 'hardware RAID' kind of guy too, but they are just too costly and I don't need that kind of performance. As long as I can fill up the Gigabit ethernet NIC when needed, any other performance above that is gravy.

Again, it's not performance, you couldn't pay me to put my data on a Highpoint card. Their early chips were crap and I've seen nothing to show they've increased the quality.

I mean you're looking at $1-2k in drives easy, at that price it seems the extra ~$250 or so to go from a Highpoint to something like an Areca 1120 is a small price to pay for a real RAID card.

[paulbeers]

While I don't have a Raid setup here at home (I don't archive DVD's so if I lose a hard drive, I am only losing recorded tv shows), if you are only looking at a terrabyte of hard drive space, then that could easily be accomplished with 4 SATA 500GB hard drives (each could be purchased for less than 140 bucks) and use RAID 1+0. You wouldn't need to worry about a RAID card since there isn't the CPU overhead. Just my thoughts on the RAID subject. I would start thinking RAID at the 2 TB level any more (500 GB x 5 x 140 = 700 needed for RAID 5, but 500 GB x 8 x 140 = 1120 needed for RAID 1+0).

I also agree with everyone else though, why in the world would you bother with PCI-X anymore? PCIe 4x offers just as much bandwidth as the fastest PCI-X and doesn't require you to spend 300+ on a "server" class motherboard.

Also, there is no need for multiple GB NIC's in your server. Even @ 9 GB of space per hour for an HDTV show, that is still only approximately 20mb/s. You could have 2 HDHomeRuns recording 4 HDTV shows and still only be at approximately 80mb/s of your 1000mb/s bandwidth (plenty of room left for your clients). While I agree GB is needed, I think your thoughts of needing more than 1 is a bit over zealous.

These are just my thoughts trying to save you money, but hey if you just want to blow a bunch of money on PCI-X cards (that are outdated with the advent of PCI-e) and Mutliple GB NIC's, more power to you.

[valnar]

Originally Posted by paulbeers

These are just my thoughts trying to save you money, but hey if you just want to blow a bunch of money on PCI-X cards (that are outdated with the advent of PCI-e) and Mutliple GB NIC's, more power to you.

Please re-read my posts. I need a C2D motherboard with four PCI slots. It seems everybody keeps missing that. Are there many other choices?

Once again, I don't need PCI-X. It just happens to come with it, just like the 2x Gig-E. Why wouldn't I fill that slot with a RAID card since I want one anyway? We all know "the next big thing" will come out in PCI-E if I used that slot.

Besides, I'm not building this server to sell it. I'm building it for an immediate need. What do I care if PCI-X is on its way out? PCI is on its way out too. Should I throw away all my tuners? That makes no sense. I still have plenty of PCI and ISA cards for some DOS gaming machines I own too.

The only arguement I've read so far with validity is the Areca one, but that comes down to money. I don't believe they are any more or less reliable than any other brand. I do plan on building up to 2TB eventually with 500GB hard drives. I would never think of going that way with onboard SATA.

The motherboard costs similar to high end ASUS workstation boards with SLI support and a variety of things I'd never use. It's not costing me anything more to go with it, unless I could find a $100 desktop board with my requirements.

Robert

Edit. OK, I found another. ASUS Commando
Has things I don't need in a server, but it wouldn't hurt to have sound. The problem is I need to waste either a PCI or PCI-E slot for video. So in the end, I suppose that doesn't save me anything. Same price as the Supermicro desktop board PDSBA. $200. At least with that I get video.

[valnar]

Originally Posted by paulbeers

Also, there is no need for multiple GB NIC's in your server. Even @ 9 GB of space per hour for an HDTV show, that is still only approximately 20mb/s. You could have 2 HDHomeRuns recording 4 HDTV shows and still only be at approximately 80mb/s of your 1000mb/s bandwidth (plenty of room left for your clients). While I agree GB is needed, I think your thoughts of needing more than 1 is a bit over zealous.

That may be true, but UDP can be funny though. Have you recorded a couple HDHomerun shows simultaneously while using a SageTV client elsewhere? All that would share the same NIC. I may have to try that.

-Robert

[lobosrul]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131538

4 PCI-e, 3 PCI slots. Why do you need 4 PCI? Consider getting a dual tuner card, or a pci-e tuner (or 2, yes they do exist).

Edit: thats just an example. I'm not endorsing ASUS.

[bcjenkins]

Originally Posted by valnar

but Sage doesn't provide an easy way to record to a remote share, nor would it be that reliable. However, as we all know, watching from a server over the LAN is just fine.

Okay, silly question time: I am recording via UNC which is technically a networked path. How is that not the same?

TIA

B

[valnar]

Originally Posted by bcjenkins

Okay, silly question time: I am recording via UNC which is technically a networked path. How is that not the same?

It is, but that hasn't been reliable for everyone. And when using placeshifter or a Sage Client, you would be going through the network twice.

Robert

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by valnar

And when using placeshifter or a Sage Client, you would be going through the network twice.

I never looked into this for Placeshifter using a local connection, but if SageTVClient can read the file directly, it reads & plays it w/o streaming it through the server.

- Andy

[valnar]

Originally Posted by lobosrul

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131538

4 PCI-e, 3 PCI slots. Why do you need 4 PCI? Consider getting a dual tuner card, or a pci-e tuner (or 2, yes they do exist).

Edit: thats just an example. I'm not endorsing ASUS.

Alright folks. Since everybody wants to play Devil's advocate, I started looking at three PCI slot boards in an effort to save money. I'd have to buy an NVidia tuner to replace one Hauppauge though. lobosrul, that one wouldn't work because I'd have to use one of the PCI slots for video. I'd need the PCI-e x16 slot for the RAID card. The PCI Express equivalent Areca or Highpoint needs a x4 or x8 mininum.

After looking through the C2D motherboard encyclopedia list, I've found only a couple good ones that may work. I chose the Intel board over the Gigabyte board solely because of the Intel gigabit NIC instead of Marvell or Realtek.

That one is the Intel DG965WH. It's one of the few full-ATX G965 chipset boards with onboard graphics that still has a PCI-E x16 slot and three PCI slots. Most integrated boards are micro-ATX. The RAID controller will take up the x16 slot.

Only $129 at Newegg, about $120 less than the Supermicro. That may or may not save me any money in the end. Everything else (CPU, hard drives, memory, case, power supply, etc) would stay the same except the RAID controller. The PCI-X versions cost the same as the PCI-E.

Robert

[bcjenkins]

The other thing to look at is the add on device which allows you to add more pci slots to your machine via a secondary housing.

Although expensive. http://www.justservers.com/products....ess%20to%20PCI

try ebay though

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by valnar

It is, but that hasn't been reliable for everyone. And when using placeshifter or a Sage Client, you would be going through the network twice.

Robert

Food for thought: In my server with an Intel DG965RY I have 2 x nVidia Dual TV cards (4 tuners) and a HD Homerun with 2 x 500 GB, 1 x 160GB, 1 x 80GB SATA drives. All are UNC paths in Sage (No RAID) and through the single, embedded gigabit NIC. There are various evenings that all of those are recording TV and we watching SD or HD shows at 2 seperate clients (or a MVP) with no issues. I also have a Freenas server with 2 x 400GB PATA drives as UNCs. Recordings can go there also.

Gerry

[valnar]

Originally Posted by gplasky

Food for thought: In my server with an Intel DG965RY I have 2 x nVidia Dual TV cards (4 tuners) and a HD Homerun with 2 x 500 GB, 1 x 160GB, 1 x 80GB SATA drives. All are UNC paths in Sage (No RAID) and through the single, embedded gigabit NIC. There are various evenings that all of those are recording TV and we watching SD or HD shows at 2 seperate clients (or a MVP) with no issues. I also have a Freenas server with 2 x 400GB PATA drives as UNCs. Recordings can go there also.

Gerry

Good to know. That may steer me towards the cheaper Intel board.

Robert

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by lobosrul

Consider getting a dual tuner card, or a pci-e tuner (or 2, yes they do exist).

If replacing tuners is on the table, you could think outside the box (literally) and use USB tuners. You can have as many of those as you like without taking up any PCI slots.