Encoder_merit not working with HDHomeRun?

[ToxMox]

Originally Posted by Narflex

Encoder merit is used when there's multiple lineups with the same channel and it needs to pick which one to record from. In this case there's 2 different channels (one analog and one digital) so the merit is not what's determining which one gets recorded.

If you redid the lineups so that they both had the same channel (can be done with remapping); then the merit setting would be working as you desire.

I just want to clarify what I think Jeff means by same channel.

If you edit your digital lineup and remap the digital channel so that it has the same call letters/channel name then. So for example if you have an analaog WNBC and a digital WNBCDT, on your digital lineup go to your WNBCDT and under the "Setup Video Sources -> Pick your tuner here -> Channel Setup" choose "Remap" for the channel in question and select "Map Different Station to this Physical Channel" and then on the list that pops up choose WNBC so now Sage will treat them both as the same channel.

The only thing that will happen here is that the recordings and guide listings for the digital channel won't mark anything as HD even if they are. You could also go the opposite route and remap WNBC on the analog to WNBCDT but then you may end up with some analog recordings being marked as HD when they are not.

[dpackham]

I see several references to "prefer hd" over SD setting. where is that setting?

Dave P

[carlgar]

It is by default. Therefore, a manual recording is the only way to prefer SD over HD.

[salsbst]

Originally Posted by Narflex

Encoder merit is used when there's multiple lineups with the same channel and it needs to pick which one to record from. In this case there's 2 different channels (one analog and one digital) so the merit is not what's determining which one gets recorded.

If you redid the lineups so that they both had the same channel (can be done with remapping); then the merit setting would be working as you desire.

OK, I think I get it, now. I have 3 devices: cablebox/firewire, HDHomeRUn and Hauppauge 500 (total of 5 tuners).

I have mapped the SD channels on the 500 to the lineup for their HD counterparts ("map different station") and set the HD channels on the cablebox/firewire to the logical channel number of the SD channels. (This cleaned up my program guide nicely, btw.) Now that channels *which are truly duplicates from a programming standpoint* have one identity in SAge, and it looks like Sage is obeying the merit the way I would want it to.

I have a few HD channels (the local PBS and FOODHD) which don't have duplicate programming to their SD counterparts. For those, I have not collapsed them down to one guide data entry, since that obviously wouldn't work.

I think I like it.

One idea I had may get me even further toward guide data nirvana. It looks like I can borrow guide data for a channel from one lineup to use in another lineup (in editing my SD analog guide data, the HD digital channels appeared when selecting to map to a different station). I've always had a problem where my HDHR could pick up channels (Maryland HD and other digital public television channels) that don't appear in any of my guides. By adding an extra "dummy" encoder to my setup, I think I can borrow a Baltimore lineup into my HDHR's config. I'm not sure the above made any sense, but the bottom line is that I think anyone who wants to combine selections from two or more guide data lineups on one encoder could use this method to accomplish the objective.

[dlandrum]

So, have I had Sage setup wrong?

I have a TimeWarner lineup mapped to my SD encoders.
I manage a DirecTV lineup where I map the HD locals to my HDHomeRun tuners.

This is a pain as I constantly have to remove new channels added by either vendor ... plus the music channels for directv do not mesh well with the music channels I can get with the HDHR ... plus there are some channels I can get with HDHR that are not provided by DirecTV.

So, am I reading it correctly that somehow Sage knows that when I select the same lineup used by my SD encoders, that only the channels remapped are available to the HDHR tuners? I do not understand how this works with success.

This is a place where the BTV method was nice. You could have many copies of the same lineup and each lineup could have different sets of selected channels. Each channel in the copy of the lineup had its own mapping.

[carlgar]

I believe you do have this setup incorrectly. However, you have not given enough information to know for sure. I will assume that you are using timeWarner as your cable provider and the HDHR is using clear QAM. I would expect that TimeWarner has 2 lineups for your area. An analog one and a digital one. If so these are what you should be using.

I do not believe there is any way you can share the same lineup with the SD encoder and the HDHR. But, I believe you can use another zip code and get the same lineup.

I agree that you should be able to modify the same lineup for different tuners. Sometimes a specific tuner will not receive a channel as well as another one does.

[salsbst]

Originally Posted by carlgar

I do not believe there is any you can share the same lineup with the SD encoder and the HDHR.

Actually, as I tried to explain above, I think you can't actually share the same lineup en masse, but you can borrow a channel from one lineup into another lineup with the "Map to a Different Station" feature. If you use it for all channels that a particular encoder has enabled, it basically renders your choice of lineup for that encoder completely meaningless.

[dlandrum]

Originally Posted by carlgar

I believe you do have this setup incorrectly. However, you have not given enough information to know for sure. I will assume that you are using timeWarner as your cable provider and the HDHR is using clear QAM. I would expect that TimeWarner has 2 lineups for your area. An analog one and a digital one. If so these are what you should be using.

Yes clear QAM via TimeWarner.
They do have 2, but the analog one does not have any of the HD stations nor the music stations. I can get TNTHD and DiscoveryHD. The show schedule for DiscoveryHD is not the same.

Originally Posted by carlgar

I do not believe there is any way you can share the same lineup with the SD encoder and the HDHR. But, I believe you can use another zip code and get the same lineup.

TimeWarner did a consolidation project last year so all zipcodes in the Dallas area have the same lineups. I tried at least 20 zip codes from the phone book. When I did find another lineup, the locals were from neighboring towns and lineups were different.


This will get worse when I have SD encoders, HD encoders, and HDHRs.
Sage needs to get ahead of this before Hauppage and others release HD encoders.


What is needed is a "User Lineup". Each user lineup tracks channel mappings, a lineup name, show/hide for channels, and a parent source lineup. Then one selects a "user lineup" for a tuner. So I would create a "SD" lineup for my SD encoders, an "HD" lineup for the stations I want to record in HD, and an "HDHR" lineup for stations I can tune via an HDHR.

[carlgar]

Originally Posted by dlandrum

They do have 2, but the analog one does not have any of the HD stations nor the music stations. I can get TNTHD and DiscoveryHD. The show schedule for DiscoveryHD is not the same.

This sounds correct because the HD stations and music stations are digital channels. Where can you get TNTHD and DiscoveryHD on your HDHR or analog tuners?

TimeWarner did a consolidation project last year so all zipcodes in the Dallas area have the same lineups. I tried at least 20 zip codes from the phone book. When I did find another lineup, the locals were from neighboring towns and lineups were different.

I believe just the new zip code is enough for sage to treat them as different lineups, but not sure. I have not had to resort to that, just seen the method in other posts.

[davidk21770]

And, I have the added annoyance that one tuner in my HDHR is a little weaker than the other so I'd like to use the stronger 1st. I've even started over with sage and entered the stronger tuner 1st, then the weaker, but sage still insists on using the weaker tuner before the stronger tuner. I also shouldn't have to fine tune my station lists from a different lineups to get my HDHR and my old analog hauppauge working together the way that I want them to. If sage doesn't start paying attention to this kind of thing and allow much more flexibility and controllability amongst tuners -- without trickery, complexity, and luck/lineup research -- they're going to lose to other products. I'm getting frustrated enough to start checking-out the competition now.

[dlandrum]

Originally Posted by davidk21770

...one tuner in my HDHR is a little weaker than the other...

If you switch the coax on the two tuners, is it still the weaker tuner? If not it seems your issue might be the splitter or the cable.

I would recommend one of these if you think it is the splitter:
http://www.cabletvamps.com/drop%20amps.htm

I use EDA-FT08000 and have had no issues.

[davidk21770]

Originally Posted by dlandrum

If you switch the coax on the two tuners, is it still the weaker tuner? If not it seems your issue might be the splitter or the cable.

I would recommend one of these if you think it is the splitter:
http://www.cabletvamps.com/drop%20amps.htm

I use EDA-FT08000 and have had no issues.

I initially came to the same conclusion and switched tuners and that actually made it worse. So right now, the weaker tuner is on the stronger split. (I'm also considering a powered splitter or a low gain amp before the splitter). But right now, for me, sage is lacking in configurability that should be there.

[salsbst]

By using the "remap to different station" feature and by using "dummy" encoders to get extra lineups into your mix, I'm pretty sure you can do whatever it is you want. What specifically do you believe you cannot configure w/respect to merit and guide data?

[davidk21770]

Originally Posted by salsbst

By using the "remap to different station" feature and by using "dummy" encoders to get extra lineups into your mix, I'm pretty sure you can do whatever it is you want. What specifically do you believe you cannot configure w/respect to merit and guide data?

Simple. I want it to use HDHR-1 before HDHR-0.

[salsbst]

I'm having that problem. How do I access the remapping function? I don't see it in the menu to enable/disable channels?

Press the Remap button to the right of the channel number/name in Channel Setup

And, I have the added annoyance that one tuner in my HDHR is a little weaker than the other so I'd like to use the stronger 1st. I've even started over with sage and entered the stronger tuner 1st, then the weaker, but sage still insists on using the weaker tuner before the stronger tuner.

Did you shut down Sage, edit the properties file to set the merit of your various tuners, and then start Sage again? Did that not seem to have an effect?

I also shouldn't have to fine tune my station lists from a different lineups to get my HDHR and my old analog hauppauge working together the way that I want them to...

Of course it would be nice if everything was easy. I'm happy that I pretty much have complete control over the tuner selection. Having to shut down and edit the properties file manually is a pain, and to that extent, I think we agree. It's not something that makes me consider the weaker competition in the market, but everyone is different and each have their priorities, and I don't mean to suggest that your frustration isn't to be respected.

I initially came to the same conclusion and switched tuners and that actually made it worse. So right now, the weaker tuner is on the stronger split. (I'm also considering a powered splitter or a low gain amp before the splitter). But right now, for me, sage is lacking in configurability that should be there.

I use an amplified splitter. My setup is

             | internet
             |
cable feed-> |
             |
             |               | bedroom tv            | cable box
             |               |                       | hd home run #1
             | television->  | amplified splitter->  | hd home run #2
                             |                       | haupp. #1
                             | living room tv        | haupp. #2

This setup works well for us. I think we might have a fairly strong signal, and I haven't had to jack up the amplification on the splitter that much. If the strength of the amplification that I'm using might be helpful for you, let me know. It's in a rather hard-to-reach place, so unless you have an interest in my splitter and its amplification setting, I'm not going to go digging into it...

You say that Sage is lacking in configurability -- do you mean that the encoder_merit setting isn't being obeyed?

Just to be clear, the setting would look something like:

mmc/encoders/123/encoder_merit=0

The number "123" represents a particular tuner (you will have something like this in your properties file:

mmc/encoders/-2100032489/encoder_merit=8
mmc/encoders/-2100032489/video_capture_device_name=Silicondust HDHomeRun Tuner 10100C7D-1
mmc/encoders/-2100032490/encoder_merit=9
mmc/encoders/-2100032490/video_capture_device_name=Silicondust HDHomeRun Tuner 10100C7D-0

This says that my first HDHomeRun (dash 0) tuner has merit of 9, and my second (dash 1) has merit of 8. I haven't experimented with whether or not Sage gravitates toward the first one due to the ranking of the merits, but I would have expected it to. Are you saying that you've made this kind of edit to your properties file and that Sage isn't playing along? I could believe that, but I wouldn't expect it.

[davidk21770]

Did you shut down Sage, edit the properties file to set the merit of your various tuners, and then start Sage again? Did that not seem to have an effect?

Yes, I shut down both sage and the server when making changes -- then restarted the server and reloaded the file in my editor to make sure that they took (multiple times).

Of course it would be nice if everything was easy. I'm happy that I pretty much have complete control over the tuner selection. Having to shut down and edit the properties file manually is a pain, and to that extent, I think we agree. It's not something that makes me consider the weaker competition in the market, but everyone is different and each have their priorities, and I don't mean to suggest that your frustration isn't to be respected.
...
You say that Sage is lacking in configurability -- do you mean that the encoder_merit setting isn't being obeyed?
...
This says that my first HDHomeRun (dash 0) tuner has merit of 9, and my second (dash 1) has merit of 8. I haven't experimented with whether or not Sage gravitates toward the first one due to the ranking of the merits, but I would have expected it to. Are you saying that you've made this kind of edit to your properties file and that Sage isn't playing along? I could believe that, but I wouldn't expect it.

I don't have complete control over tuner selection. I have made these changes and Encoder merit is simply ignored. It always uses HDHR-0 before HDHR-1 -- no matter where I set encoder merit -- even at 1000. I even removed all of the HDHR tuners and reentered them starting with HDHR-1 and Sage still insists on using HDHR-0 1st.

From other reading, I believe that I would have to use a DIFFERENT LINEUP for each encoder for this to work and that's outrageous. It requires research to find one, luck that one exists that is close enough and stays close enough, and the time to redo all of the configuration for the 2nd tuner. I don't have that time. It should not be required.

And, thanks for taking the time to ascii-out your wiring. Mine's actually more complex already with multiple bi-directional ampified splitters to the different TVs, internet and computer. But it's still too close to Christmas for me to afford another amp (and a splitter change would only gain me a 0.5-1db) -- and Sage should have an easy work-around.

[ToxMox]

If you want, please post/attach your sage.properties file.
All things being equal: that is to say both HDHRs have the same exact lineup then Sage will follow merit and use the higher merit tuner first. If it is being ignored make sure Sage is using that properties file and not in some strange location like Vista would do if you have UAC enabled.

Also a sidenote. It makes no difference which tuner you add first. Once Sage detects it in your system it already exists in the properties file. At that point you are just basically enabling or disabling them by adding or removing them from the configuration.

[davidk21770]

Originally Posted by ToxMox

If you want, please post/attach your sage.properties file.
All things being equal: that is to say both HDHRs have the same exact lineup then Sage will follow merit and use the higher merit tuner first. If it is being ignored make sure Sage is using that properties file and not in some strange location like Vista would do if you have UAC enabled.

Also a sidenote. It makes no difference which tuner you add first. Once Sage detects it in your system it already exists in the properties file. At that point you are just basically enabling or disabling them by adding or removing them from the configuration.

You were so convinced, that I went back and tried again (the last time that I tried this was before Christmas). It now works! I don't know if it was fixed in the update since then or if I had something wrong in my properties file (I tried lots of values in both directions in case I had the tuners mixed-up -- so I'm thinking that the update changed the behavior). Thanks!