Question About NTSC and ATSC Channel Mapping

[Boiler98]

Hello all. I just downloaded SageTV to try it out and see if it can save me from breaking down and just buying a new Series 3 TiVo. I am running into trouble mapping both ATSC/QAM and NTSC channels.

I've set up the NTSC tuner. Works fine -- all the channels are mapped correctly and I get lineup data. No trouble.

My QAM channels (coming from an HDHomeRun) are not getting programming data though, and I'm not sure how to fix the situation. I'm setting it up as an Antenna/Broadcast in Seattle (98109), selecting the Digital lineup.

I've also tried a logical mapping to appropriate channels to the corresponding digital cable channel (e.g., 13-1 -> 113 for FOX), but the programming information form channel 113 does not show up when I look at the channel in the guide.

Any suggestions on how I can get the EPG data for these QAM channels?

Thank you for any help.

[Conejo]

Have you downloaded and installed the latest software from the Silicon Dust website. This is required for installing the BDA drivers and the setup/remap application SageTV needs to work with the HDHome Run.

1) The 'NTSC' (analog cable) and 'QAM' (Digital Cable) EPG lineups need to be different (because they use different methods of tuning). Use BASIC for the analog cable, and DIGITAL for the QAM.

2) It looks like you have done this correctly in selecting the 'Digital Lineup' for your HDHR tuner. When following the SiliconDust website instructions and having selected a Digital EPG lineup in SageTV Tuner Source you need to DISABLE ALL THE CHANNELS, locate a digital channel (above 125) in the guide that matches one of the channels you previously ENABLED in the HDHR Setup Program (The HDHR Setup program will assign 'fake' renumbered channels to those you enable) and use the REMAP button to add the 'fake' PHYSICAL CHANNEL (the first xx of the xx-yy-zz trio).

3) Once you've set this 'fake' number in SageTV you'll need to ACTIVATE the channel my selecting the CHANNEL_NUMBER/Station_Name to make a GREEN DOT appear.

4) Once you hit "DONE" with channel changes, SageTV will then pull down the active EPG data for those channels.

[MrUp]

I'm gaining more experience daily. I'm so glad I found SageTV, I'm sure it will do just what my family needs and I'm so close to having it configured correctly (I think/hope).

I have HDHomeRun and WinTV-PVR-500 MCE. I can use them alone without a problem, but I can't seem to get them setup together. The program guide gets confusing <grin>.

I have the latest software from SiliconDust and SageTV. I have about 40 channels in HDHomeRun however only about 12 are above 200 and of them, most are in the 800's.

I've read, but not understood, posts about creating FAKE channels. Is there some documentation which you can refer me to?

[Conejo]

Originally Posted by MrUp

I have HDHomeRun and WinTV-PVR-500 MCE. I can use them alone without a problem, but I can't seem to get them setup together. The program guide gets confusing <grin>.

I have the latest software from SiliconDust and SageTV. I have about 40 channels in HDHomeRun however only about 12 are above 200 and of them, most are in the 800's.

I've read, but not understood, posts about creating FAKE channels. Is there some documentation which you can refer me to?

I'm not aware on any additional 'documentation' to the SageTV User Manual, Troubleshooting FAQ or the setup instructions at SiliconDust.

You have the same tuner setup I have.

My PVR-500 (dual tuner) receives ANALOG CABLE Ch-2 through Ch-68 (of ch2-125). I've disabled the channels I don't understand (Spanish, Mandarin, Money, etc) and channels that have blackout rules.

My HDHR (dual tuner) receives QAM CABLE channels as set using the SiliconDust setup program (this is where the 'fake' channels come into play [*see note below]). I have 15 channels that are CLEAR on my cable system. My 'fake' channels are renumbered as channels 2 - 16. These channels show up on my CABLE Electronic Program Guide (EPG) as channels 149 on up, with the full HD resolution channels in the guide in the 700s. ALL my channels are DISABLED except for the 15 channels I actually can receive.

I don't have any SIMULCAST (SD and SD digital) programming sent as CLEAR QAM so I don't have any channel conflicts (overlays) between my PVR-500 and HDHR lineups and my guide has lots of gaps in the numbering. If you follow the HDHR instructions then SageTV merges the two EPG lineups into a single guide.

My SageTV 'Setup Video Sources' shows 4 Tuners. My PVR-500 tuners use a BASIC CABLE lineup. My HDHR tuners use a DIGITAL CABLE Lineup. SageTV merged these to show me all the channels I enabled in one guide.


*[FAKE Channels]
This 'term' is an oversimplification used to 'help' a single forum user understand the concept of REMAP and has gotten used in other posts. Neither SageTV nor SiliconDust use the name 'fake channel' in their terminology but use 'REMAP'.

SiliconDust's current HDHR setup uses TWO remaps to overcome a shortcoming in how Microsoft handles DIGITAL tuning with their BDA drivers. One REMAP happens in the SiliconDust Setup program and the second REMAP happens in SageTV when we assign Physical Channels to stations in the program guide.

[MrUp]

ching, ching... I bought savetv with placeshifter. I have close captioning working (this was #1 wish list item) now what remains is what we've been talking about in this posting.
I've got my PVR500's humming and my hdhomerun is working fine except I have no program guide for those channels. These 11 channels are 237, 297, 802, 804, 805, 838... etc and they are properly labeled in the guide... WMURDT, WFXTDT for example... but still no EPG.
I've not been able to figure out how to setup the channel guide the way you described... I guess I need specifics <grin>.
Please explain (step by step) so I even a dummy (me) can understand.
If I remove both silicondust sources.. then start at the begging and add them, then pick the zip, then cable, then comcast digital, then basic lineup, then it asks me if I want to scan the channels, I say yes, it finishes in few minutes with 11 found.. their channel names are wrong though... for example: 23-7 - WNBCDT3 - [35-23-7] so I change it's logical channel to 237 and it moves to that spot... which is the correct spot and it's showing what I would expect on channel 237... but there is no guide data... in to program guide it says 237 WNBCDT3 and if I click on it, I see the correct channel (237) all is well... except no guide data.
What have I done wrong?

[Conejo]

Originally Posted by MrUp

Please explain (step by step) so I even a dummy (me) can understand.
If I remove both silicondust sources.. then start at the begging and add them, then pick the zip, then cable, then comcast digital, then basic lineup, then it asks me if I want to scan the channels, I say yes, it finishes in few minutes with 11 found.. their channel names are wrong though... for example: 23-7 - WNBCDT3 - [35-23-7] so I change it's logical channel to 237 and it moves to that spot... which is the correct spot and it's showing what I would expect on channel 237... but there is no guide data... in to program guide it says 237 WNBCDT3 and if I click on it, I see the correct channel (237) all is well... except no guide data.
What have I done wrong?

These are not the setup instruction given on the SiliconDust website for SageTV installation. I placed links in my previous posts.

There are TWO METHODS of connecting a SiliconDust HDHome Run unit to the SageTV software. The original method (Network Encoder) isn't currently supported and THE SECOND involves DOWNLOADING a SETUP PROGRAM and following the instructions posted on their site.

By following these posted instructions you will be able to install the required Microsoft BDA drivers and setup your HDHR and SageTV to work with the EPG lineup.

[MrUp]

about 8 times I tried that, and I'm just to stupid... I guess.
Here is what happens... it finds all the stations... some are unknowns, but they don't work.. all have remaining identified stations are correct... their channel names are right.
I save the file and I've confirmed it's there... lineup.xml (if I remember correctly) and I then leave it all running and launch sagetv then I go through the setup, disable all the channels in the lineup, then use the REMAP button to add the 'fake' PHYSICAL CHANNEL (the first xx of the xx-yy-zz trio), an example is 14... when I remap to 14 the channel now tunes to channel 14 instead of the previous channel (for example 802).. so the display says 802-WMURDT-(14) and it's really WLVI (or whatever is broadcasting on 14)... I've not had success.
I'll try this again in the hopes I'll find what I'm missing... I'm really good at doing it wrong... maybe I can find a way to do that wrong so it's right.
:\
Sorry.

[Conejo]

IF you are actually tuning channel "14" then it sounds like the DBA driver software isn't installed correctly. The HDHR can't tune analog channels.

Please verify for me that you have FOUR tuners in the SageTV "Setup Video Sources" and that they are listed as:

SiliconDust HDHomerun Tuner nnnnnnnn-1 Digital TV Tuner: <cableco> DIGITAL - <yourcity>
SiliconDust HDHomerun Tuner nnnnnnnn-0 Digital TV Tuner: <cableco> DIGITAL - <yourcity>
Hauppauge WinTV PVR PCI II Capture TV Tuner: <cableco> - <yourcity>
Hauppauge WinTV PVR PCI II Capture #2 TV Tuner: <cableco> - <yourcity>

[MrUp]

I didn't notice this before.. but for each of the channels I have to map there is another one with the same call letters... for example:
825 - WFXTDT - [41-82-5]
825 - WFXTDT

I'm putting the green dot on the one which includes the additional info (could this have been my previous problem) .. when I press view it shows the same as when I press view in the hdhomerun lineup editor.

I'm feeling hopeful

[MrUp]

yep have four tuners.. just as you listed.

The result of my recent setup... the channels are there, they tune correctly, but EPG data... maybe it takes awhile to update?

Well, it's 11pm and I'm beat... have full day of work ahead of me for tomorrow... it's funny, I'm a senior software developer, and it's nothing to write pages of logic... but this tv stuff has me baffled. I'll check back tomorrow.

Thanks for your help, and patience.

[Conejo]

TROUBLESHOOTING

1) Make sure you a performing the troubleshooting from the SageTV server.

2) In the HDHR Setup program, please DISABLE ALL THE CHANNELS

2a) In the HDHR Setup program, Enable only the channels you recognize/want (237, 297, 802, 804, 805, 838... etc). The other channels should be disabled (unchecked). [?] I'm curious how you programmed channel 14 when you only have 11 active channels [/?]

3) In the HDHR Setup program, VERIFY that WMURDT (cable 802) and WNBCDT3 (cable 237) appear correctly by clicking the VIEW to launch VLC. If these are correct then close VLC and click SAVE (to create the Lineup.xml). These 'fake' numbers may differ from previous attempts.

4) Tell me how many channels you now have active in the HDHR Setup program. (2-80-1 through what ??? [we're only interested in the first xx digit])

5) In SAGETV, enter the "Setup Video Sources" section and select one of the HDHR tuners

There's a BIG issue here. If you are getting a picture from "825 - WFXTDT - [41-82-5]" then you still have the channels from the SageTV CHANNEL SCAN showing up. (Yes, they might work but the extra tuning data causes conflicts) Please [erase] these channels by using REMAP [LOGICAL Reset] and then [PHYSICAL Reset]. This will delete them from the lineup. Once all of these channels are reset you can continue with the next step.

5a) Select DISABLE ALL CHANNELS.

6) To program the REMAP (fake) channels in SageTV, first find the correct corresponding guide channel (ex: 825 - WFXDT) and use REMAP [PHYSICAL] to the xx of the xx-yy-zz trio from the HDHR Setup program. If it was 5-81-4 then just enter 5.

7) Test this channel by clicking it's name to make it active (green dot) an click VIEW. If this is successful, continue with the other channels.

7a) IF there are any *disabled* channels with remap data, please REMAP [Physical RESET] then to clear this data.

8) DON'T FORGET to select "Done with Channel Setup" and "Finish Source Setup" to properly store your changes.

The EPG data retrieve will be triggered on exit. You should see program data appear on those channels you programmed momentary.

[MrUp]

When I read your instructions, my screen doesn't seem to match.
for example:
a) I have multiple channels listed in my line-up and there are no reset options within the remap button
b) The numbers in my lineup (hdhomerun) are not sequential and begin at 16 and go to 42
c) yes the channels appear correctly within VLC, but if I press View within savetv channel setup (see screen shot attachment) it doesn't display the correct channel.

Strange thing happened when I made this screen shot... I pressed printscreen then pasted into Paint (I don't have graphics pgm on server) and the show continued to display! I selected smaller area... cut, new image, pasted the smaller image (what I attached) and the show continued to display live tv in the cropped image within paint... strange, right? anyway... continuing:

answers to your questions:
1) yep.. fresh format of both partitions, install of xp pro sp2 with sagetv... 3GB RAM this pvr is dedicated for this purpose.
2) yep
3) yep (fake channels? once again, I'm not sure if my screen is correct... (please reference screen shot) are you talking about xx so that WMURDT is 16?
4) 11, see sreen shot
5) I was unsuccessful at 'erasing' all of them (see duplicates in screen shot) there were no resets shown within either of the two. There were resets, you were right... I went through each channel and reset within every listing that offered me that option... but not all of them went away.
5a) yep
6) done
7) yep
7a) not 100% successful .. (see step 5 above)
8) done
I switch to program data. It worked.
yep, really... all is well now. THANKS!

[Conejo]

The copy/paste with live media is normal. Strange but normal.

I'm not sure why 804 appeared twice without letting you reset one of them. Strange.

I'm not saying it will happen but you *may* have tuning problems with your HDHR Setup 'remap' numbers. The screen shot you attached showing the CHANNEL EDITOR gives a WEIRD MIX of remap numbers.

34-21-7
35-23-7
36-83-8
40-29-7

From my experience, if you disable all the check-boxes then enable them one-by-one they should number:

2-80-1
3-80-2
4-80-3
...
10-80-9
11-81-1
12-81-2

They're remapped for internal use only. Has anyone else come up with such a weird set of remaps in their HDHR Setup?