How much are HDDs worth?

[stanger89]

Weighing my options here and I'm curious to get the opinions of those here, since I know we are some of the bigger consumers of HDDs around . I've got roughly 3.25TB in redundant storage currently, but I've only got about 50GB free so it is once again time to research storage solutions.

Right now I've got my SageTV server, it's got 8 WD2500JBs (pata) on a 3ware 7506-8. It's also got a number of misc drives (200GB/300GB seagates for recording, 160GB seagate for OS/misc stuff). I've also got a ReadyNAS X6 with 4 500GB SATA Seagates.

With the 1TB drives out now, my first thought is, I could replace the 500's in my NAS with 4 1TB drives, and I could fit almost everything from the array in my server on my NAS. Basically I could replace 12 drives with 4. The plus side of that is, my server pulls about 180W, probably 80 of which is just the HDDs. I could save myself 60-70W easy by swapping out drives.

So what I'm curious about is, what do you think 4 500GB SATA drives, 8 250GB PATA drives, and an 8-port PATA 3ware RAID card are worth? I'm trying to gauge how much of the ~$1200 for 4x 1TB drives I can recoup by selling old stuff.

Of course the rub is (and there always is one), after this I'd still be out of space, so the question becomes how to expand further....

[geogecko]

Hey.

Looks like those 500GB WD's are going for about $90 shipped on eBay right now, that is, used.

Not sure what the rest is worth...might I suggest eBay, using the completed item search. This is what I use to gauge how much something might be worth before selling it.

I don't know your whole situation, but it sounds like you probably don't care too much about noise, as I'm sure your server is in some closet or something, but IMO, I have decided to not buy WD drives anymore. They are fine in a temperature controlled environement, with good airflow, but take the airflow away, and I've had 3 drives go out in less than a year. I have since started using Samsung drives (I know, the underdog, but I've had their 160GB, 250GB and now 500GB drives, without a single failure, and on top of that, they are rated some of the quietest drives). I doubt however, that they currently make a 1TB drive, as they seem to be a little behind Hitachi and Seagate.

Looks like in the future, you'll just need another ReadyNAS!

With the HD extenders coming soon, I am seriously considering moving the HTPC to a more remote location, and putting an HD extender in the living room. Only disadvantage to doing this, would be the ability to play DVD's easily.

Having a central place to store a server and drives would be nice, instead of having all that in the living room, and requiring it to be quiet. On top of that, I'm waiting on the D-Link DIR-855 dual band (at the same time) WiFi-N router to come out...

[ToxMox]

I wish we could sell things on this forum. I have a bunch of extra tuners and drives I could stand to get rid of.

[geogecko]

True, doing a Fleebay auction takes time. It would be nice to just post something for sale, and get it done. Wonder if you could link to a for sale at Craigslist from this forum? Probably against the rules too.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by geogecko

Hey.

Looks like those 500GB WD's are going for about $90 shipped on eBay right now, that is, used.

Maybe better than I was figuring. I guess people (some at least) have a higher price threshold for used gear than I, and at the same time, are less willing to spend the marginal extra cost for new, go figure.

Not sure what the rest is worth...might I suggest eBay, using the completed item search. This is what I use to gauge how much something might be worth before selling it.

Not really a big fan of ebay, I avoid it if at all possible. And well, I'm not ready to sell yet (if ever), since I've got nowhere to put stuff. I really need to have the replacement (whatever it may be) before I get rid of any current gear.

I don't know your whole situation, but it sounds like you probably don't care too much about noise, as I'm sure your server is in some closet or something, but IMO, I have decided to not buy WD drives anymore. They are fine in a temperature controlled environement, with good airflow, but take the airflow away, and I've had 3 drives go out in less than a year.

I've lost two (I think) that weren't behind a fan, but I've got 8 running happilly in iStar Heat Terminator 3-in-2 cages (which have 80mm fans integrated).

No, noise is not really an issue, I have my server and NAS in the utility room and I'll fan/cool the crap out of them in there. Not only that, it's in the basement which is usually in the 60s.

I have since started using Samsung drives (I know, the underdog, but I've had their 160GB, 250GB and now 500GB drives, without a single failure, and on top of that, they are rated some of the quietest drives). I doubt however, that they currently make a 1TB drive, as they seem to be a little behind Hitachi and Seagate.

Lately I've been buying exclusively Seagate, and I'm quite happy, but the new 1TB WD "Green" drives are very interesting as they use half (or less) the power of about any other 3.5" drive out there. That and they can still hit 70MB/s sequential read and have respectable latency.

Looks like in the future, you'll just need another ReadyNAS!

For a long time I thought I'd just do that, but they're $800 bare now, from memory, that's getting to be close to twice what I payed for mine. Further, the reason I got my current ReadyNAS is largely becasue at the time, drive sizes/prices were still such that it didn't make sense to replace my 3ware/WD array so I needed to buy a case at that time as well.

However now, when 2, 1TB drives can replace my whole 3ware array, the situation is a bit different. I can get a 12-port 3ware SATA RAID controller for less than a single 4-drive ReadyNAS. I'm going to be running a server regardless so it makes sense to put drives in there.

Now this looks interesting. I'd see their eSATA one, but it's complicated to use that with a decent RAID controler, this one is much cheaper, and works with simple multilane SATA/Infinband (I'd ignored this because I thought it was something different.

With the HD extenders coming soon, I am seriously considering moving the HTPC to a more remote location, and putting an HD extender in the living room.

I gave up on keeping storage an frontend HTPC together long ago, way too hard to keep drives quiet AND happy.

Only disadvantage to doing this, would be the ability to play DVD's easily.

Either don't play DVDs directly , or that's what a $99 HD DVD player is for

[Fluffdaddy]

Originally Posted by ToxMox

I wish we could sell things on this forum.

Ditto

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Not really a big fan of ebay, I avoid it if at all possible.

Another option is to donate your surplus drives to your local school district or junior college, and take the eBay figure as a tax writeoff. You won't get full value back that way, but you'll make some students happy and maybe even get to see some cool projects being built.

Originally Posted by ToxMox

I wish we could sell things on this forum.

I don't. An unregulated "For Sale" board here would soon be overrun with all kinds of spammers and scammers, and the forums mods don't have anywhere near the resources to police it properly. I'd rather buy & sell stuff on one of the well-regulated sites (like eBay) that specialize in that sort of activity and offer some degree of buyer protection.

[Crashless]

Well, I guess this one's a two parter so...

How much are they worth? Exactly as much as someone will pay for them.

Really, once ebay isn't an option, I personally don't like a lot of the other avenues to sell things. It _would_ be nice if we could connect somewhere around here to do things like that, but there is a lot of liability in that, so maybe the [H]ardOCP forums?

What to buy? Well, now we're talkin' my language. I tend to go with the best per GB solutions of the hour (currently the 500gb assortment I think. I have two samsung spinpoint T 500s and love them). BUT a 12 channel SATA RAID5 card that has OCE and card-spanning would be pretty nice with 1tb drives - but really spendy per GB. That chassis you posted looks nice too - I want one. Depending on your current case, that might be good.

You could get 4TB of RAID 5 with 9 drives on a 12 channel card with room to grow...my 2 cents say to go with that.

Can't wait to see what you get!

[Fluffdaddy]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

I don't. An unregulated "For Sale" board here would soon be overrun with all kinds of spammers and scammers, and the forums mods don't have anywhere near the resources to police it properly.

Was there a problem in the past? I remember at one time members selling surplus stuff was cool here.


But I do understand why the brass would not wish to deal with the possible headaches

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Crashless

Well, I guess this one's a two parter so...

How much are they worth? Exactly as much as someone will pay for them.

Really, once ebay isn't an option, I personally don't like a lot of the other avenues to sell things. It _would_ be nice if we could connect somewhere around here to do things like that, but there is a lot of liability in that, so maybe the [H]ardOCP forums?

Oh, where to (try to) sell them isn't an issue, main reason for the thread was to get a feel for what people thought drives are worth. I have trouble sometimes because to me, I'd never consider buying 250s, nor would I ever consider building an array like I have today, no matter the cost, so it's somewhat difficult for me to put a value on these things.

What to buy? Well, now we're talkin' my language. I tend to go with the best per GB solutions of the hour (currently the 500gb assortment I think. I have two samsung spinpoint T 500s and love them).

It sounds like good logic, but only initially. Right now, the $/GB leader is (as you say) the 500GB drive. But buying 500GB drives means you run out of space twice as fast, and have to either build a new array or replace them twice as quick. That's where I'm at with my 250s. I bought them because they were a great deal at the time, but now I'm stuck with 8 power-sucking, 'tiny' drives. Beyond that, 250s are about $0.20/GB, while 1TB drives are only $0.30/GB, I wouldn't call that spendy, I'd call that a logical investment. For example I could replace my 250's with either 5 500s (RAID-5) and on a 12 channel controller be limited to 5.5TB, or with 3 1TBs, and be good all the way to 11TB. As far as cost of the drives, that's $500 for the 500s, or $900 for the 1TBs, but that's today, 500GB drives really aren't going to drop any more, so that 5.5TB will end up costing about $1000 (just under $0.20/GB). If we figure 1TB drives will hit $100 by the we need > 5.5TB, and they decrease in price regularly over that time, we're looking at $900 up front, plus 4x$200, + 5x$100 = $2200 for 11TB, I guess that comes out to $0.22/GB so yeah, more than 500s, but far less hastle in rebuilding.

BUT a 12 channel SATA RAID5 card that has OCE and card-spanning would be pretty nice with 1tb drives - but really spendy per GB. That chassis you posted looks nice too - I want one. Depending on your current case, that might be good.

Well, I've got a, um, I think it's a 10-bay server tower with 11 drives in it currently. However after having to replace a couple drives, I really want to go hot swap. Plus going rackmount would be very nice. Rebuild my server to something with a bit more umph and better efficiency, that would be nice.

You could get 4TB of RAID 5 with 9 drives on a 12 channel card with room to grow...my 2 cents say to go with that.

Or with 1TBs, could get 4TB of RAID-5 with 5 drives and have room for another 7TB

Can't wait to see what you get!

We'll see, the pricetag is not helping at the moment:

Rackmount server case - $160
Repurpose HTPC to server - Free (+cost of HD extender, assuming it's cool enough)
Rackmount storage case - $580
12-port RAID card - $650
5 1TB drives - $1500

That's about $2900 (scarily, that number doesn't frighten me as much as I expected

If I'm lucky I can recoup maybe $800 of that with my current gear, maybe $1200-1300 if I sell my whole NAS. What if I hock my whole server.... descisions decisions.

[Crashless]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Or with 1TBs, could get 4TB of RAID-5 with 5 drives and have room for another 7TB

Now THAT's a compelling argument!

We'll see, the pricetag is not helping at the moment:

Rackmount server case - $160
Repurpose HTPC to server - Free (+cost of HD extender, assuming it's cool enough)
Rackmount storage case - $580
12-port RAID card - $650
5 1TB drives - $1500

That's a big percentage of money spent on cases. If it doesn't have to be pretty, it seems like a little carpentry could solve that issue for a lot less money. Granted - not as cool looking, but just as functional and more money for hard drives.

I just wish I had a free closet to hide things in. All my stuff lately has had to be wife-approved, which ends up being really expensive - leaving less money for actual hardware. I'm kind of regretting my recent build's expensive case at the expense of more horsepower.

[geogecko]

LOL, same here Crashless. I've probably got $3K in my HTPC/Mass Storage case, not including hard drives...

Sounds like someone just needs to use the delete key! LOL. S89, what is the need for such large storage? I have 1.5TB, and am sitting at around 900GB free, mainly due to my two 500WD biting the dust. I can see the need if you are ripping movies to your drives, but I just can't seem to find the time to watch the 89 episodes of Modern Marvels that I have right now, not to mention the 239 episodes I had before the drives crashed!

It does seem strange that people would pay $90 for a 500GB drive used, when you can get them for like $20 more brand new. Personally, I don't buy used hard drives, because those are like the lifeblood of a computer. You buy a drive that has been used for 3 years 24/7, and you may get 4 more years out of it, or 10 minutes.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Crashless

That's a big percentage of money spent on cases. If it doesn't have to be pretty, it seems like a little carpentry could solve that issue for a lot less money. Granted - not as cool looking, but just as functional and more money for hard drives.

True, the rackmount PC case is almost entirely for aesthetic reasons. But the HDD cage isn't really that "over the top". For 12 drives, it's very easy to rack up several hundred dollars just in hot-swap cages. They seem to run about $25/drive or so.

Of course yeah, probably $400 of that is just me in the "I'm gonna do it right, cost be damned mode"

I just wish I had a free closet to hide things in. All my stuff lately has had to be wife-approved, which ends up being really expensive - leaving less money for actual hardware. I'm kind of regretting my recent build's expensive case at the expense of more horsepower.

I've got my server and such in the basement laundry/utility room.

Originally Posted by geogecko

LOL, same here Crashless. I've probably got $3K in my HTPC/Mass Storage case, not including hard drives...

Sounds like someone just needs to use the delete key! LOL. S89, what is the need for such large storage? I have 1.5TB, and am sitting at around 900GB free, mainly due to my two 500WD biting the dust.

Need? There is no need for this. What Need?


To answer your question, I've got about 2.5-3TB of DVDs on my server/NAS and I'm essentially out of room (50GB free maybe?). That's 400 DVDs or so BTW, and I've got a good 10 on order still.

Looking to the future, HD movies run about 25GB a pop, so I need about 10TB to fit 400 of them.

And then of course there's digital photos and other misc stuff (I keep those in at least two places, one of which is DVD too).

Of course another large part of the reason for planning so large this time is, I want to put off the situation I'm in now for as long as possible. That position being, being out of space with no "simple" expansion path.

I can see the need if you are ripping movies to your drives, but I just can't seem to find the time to watch the 89 episodes of Modern Marvels that I have right now, not to mention the 239 episodes I had before the drives crashed!

I've "only" got 500GB for Sage recordings for exactly that reason, I'm sure I could get by with less.

[geogecko]

LOL, good points. I wonder if I should limit Sage for the same reason. Once the drives got close to capacity, it's hard to do anything else, even backing up the OS drive gets difficult if I'm not too careful (store the backup locally first, then transfer it to an external drive).

[malbec]

I tend to target 25 cents per GIG as a "Good Deal." Since they are used, would probably want to pay something a little less .. depends how much I trust/like you (No worries there from seeing your posts here). Would point you to craigslist if you live in a larger metropolitan area. You already have it scoped in, but the power usage of the drive configuration is a hidden cost that I think more people should take into account. Figure what? 11 cents per kilowatt hour ... 8,760 hours in a year ... so $0.96 in savings per year for each watt you cut assumimg my math holds? Assuming a five year life for the drive and a healthy 9% return on your investment, you are looking at about $3.75 in savings for each watt you cut.

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by stanger89

To answer your question, I've got about 2.5-3TB of DVDs on my server/NAS and I'm essentially out of room (50GB free maybe?). That's 400 DVDs or so BTW, and I've got a good 10 on order still.

Looking to the future, HD movies run about 25GB a pop, so I need about 10TB to fit 400 of them.

I still don't get the need to put all your entire DVDs collection on harddrives. First and foremost, it is extremely EXPENSIVE to do so. And this is just for DVDs, nevermind the next generation HD movies. Personally, I don't re-watch DVD movies more than once or twice, so there's no need to store them on harddrives. I only keep about 20 DVD movies of the latest releases on harddrives. People with kids who do watch things over and over, just rip those movies to Xvid/Divx/x264. It'll save a tons of space and the kids could less what video format it is or the difference in video quality. but I guess thats just me, to each his own.

Of course another large part of the reason for planning so large this time is, I want to put off the situation I'm in now for as long as possible. That position being, being out of space with no "simple" expansion path.

I've "only" got 500GB for Sage recordings for exactly that reason, I'm sure I could get by with less.

To me, harddrive upgrades are inevitable, especially on a media server. This might not be helpful in your situation (Stanger89), but this is my method in dealing with harddrives in my server.

I prefer to do upgrades often, but spend little at a time, rather than wait a long cycle to do a big expensive upgrade. It's like doing payments over time rather than spending a large sum once in a while. The other benefit is when you replace drives often enough, you decrease the chance of drive failures.

I try to replace my drives after they are about 3 years old, and that's 3 years of running 24/7 on the server. I usually buy the biggest drive that's around $100. In the past year, it's been the 500G. The 750G hasn't gone down to the $100 neighborhood yet, at least I haven't seen such deals.

So I started with a bunch of 120 PATA drives years ago, then replaced them with 250 SATA drives, and now replacing the 250s with 500G SATA drives. At some point, I bought a server case (Thermaltake Armor) that can hold 12 drives + DVD drive. So I've been just swapping out older smaller drives and replacing them with the biggest drives I can afford in the $100 range. This keeps the drives new in rotation and it's less costly or seems that way because I'm spending $100 every few months rather than saving up for a major expensive upgrade.

The problem is what to do with old drives after they have been replaced in the server. Some of them die, but not all. I just use them on other computers or just give them to friends and family so they can use them in their computers. Of course, you can sell them too but that's just too much trouble for me and as the thread topic is about, I'm not sure what they are worth and if its worth my time.

One more thing, I've been a die-hard Seagate guy, but lately I've switched to Samsung drives because they seem to perform better, quieter, and more reliable. Still, it's hard to ignore Seagates 5 year warranty.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

I still don't get the need to put all your entire DVDs collection on harddrives.

There is no need.

First and foremost, it is extremely EXPENSIVE to do so.

But it soo COOL

And this is just for DVDs, nevermind the next generation HD movies.

11TB ought to hold 400 of them or so

Personally, I don't re-watch DVD movies more than once or twice, so there's no need to store them on harddrives.

Never said there was any logic to it. But it's so cool when I've got people over for movie night and somebody mentions something from some other movie, and I can pull it up in a matter of seconds

And hey, it's over $20k less than a Kaleidescape

I only keep about 20 DVD movies of the latest releases on harddrives. People with kids who do watch things over and over, just rip those movies to Xvid/Divx/x264. It'll save a tons of space and the kids could less what video format it is or the difference in video quality. but I guess thats just me, to each his own.

Transcoding is too much work for not enough gain, personally my time is worth more than the cost of the extra storage.

To me, harddrive upgrades are inevitable, especially on a media server. This might not be helpful in your situation (Stanger89), but this is my method in dealing with harddrives in my server.

Oh, I know they're inevitable, but I'm open to suggestions.

[petereader]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Never said there was any logic to it. But it's so cool when I've got people over for movie night and somebody mentions something from some other movie, and I can pull it up in a matter of seconds

I'm so glad to hear someone else feels this way. I've lost count of how many movies I've got on HDD but I imagine I'm in the neigborhood of about 300 (I just ordered 10 more that should be arriving today!) I've had friends and family over for serveral movie nights where I've done the exact same thing. It really adds to the movie night motif (and, as you said, is just really cool)

I'm also getting to the point where I need to start thinking of expanding my infrastructure to accomodate my insatiable DVD (and now HD-DVD and Blu-ray) habit. I've been seriously considering converting one of my old boxes to an UnRAID server, but this thread has given me second thoughts.

Stanger, what are your thoughts on unRAID as a solution? It would certainly allow you to fill up a box (provided you have one with enough bays) with any size drive.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by petereader

Stanger, what are your thoughts on unRAID as a solution? It would certainly allow you to fill up a box (provided you have one with enough bays) with any size drive.

If it didn't require a dedicated box it would be great. By that I mean if it were a hardware or software solution that ran on an OS (ideally Windows), so that I could have SageTV, J River Media Center, and whatever else I want (server wise) running on it, it would be great. As it is though, requiring an extra "full-up" PC makes it unappealing for me.

[Addict]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

At some point, I bought a server case (Thermaltake Armor) that can hold 12 drives + DVD drive.

Hey, I just got this case in the mail (thanks for the recommendation)! Should work great as my NAS case. However, I'm a little confused...

You stated that it holds 12 drives...the "Product Tour" states the following:

"With the included 3 x 3.5" HDD module combined with a built-in removable HDD cage, the Thermaltake Armor Series VA8000BWS holds up to twelve 3.5" hard drives as well."

However, after receiving the product there's spots for 7 drives only. There is one 3xHDD cage in the back, one 3xHDD 5.25-to-3.5 conversion cage and one 1xHDD 5.25-3.5 conversion cage. That makes 7 max. The rest will only hold 5.25 optical drives.

As far as I can tell, the only way to make this happen is to have two more of the removable 3xHDD 5.25-to-3.5 conversion cages.

Am I being obtuse or missing something here?

Thanks!