HD Extender to a 1366x768 plamsa - very poor

[moamoa]

Hi,

I just got my extender and having set it up I am disappointed with the quality. However, I don't think it's totally the fault of the extender.

My current setup is a HTPC connected to the 1366x768 plasma by the standard pc monitor cable. The quality on this is excellent for everything for SD and HD content.

However, I am now connecting the extender via HDMI to the plasma. I can only choose 1080i or 720p in the setup, each are equally bad.

My feeling is that the PC is so good since the original source is scaled in one step to the native resolution of the the screen.

However, with the extender the source is scaled to 1920x1080 for delivery to the HDMI, then the tv is down scaling it back from that to the 1366x768 of the TV... and that's my problem.... does that sound right?

I currently have no 1080 hd platform to connect the extender to, but if i did would this be a single scale from the source to 1920x1080 and then pixel->pixel delivery to the full hd tv? Would this be as good as a PC connected to the monitor natively at 1920x1080?

Oh for a VGA out on the extender and an option to set the resolution to that of the plasma

As it is just now the extender is a major downgrade for me, so it will need to go back in the box.

Anyone think of a solution to get decent quality under my setup?

[moamoa]

I am now trying to add a custom resolution to try and get it working. I've moved from HDMI to Component now, and that seem to be working in a very low resolution (looks like 480 to me).

I've tried adding this to the clients properties;

extender_resolution_extra_modes=1366x768p@60|VESA_1366x768x60

I can see this option in the settings after starting now, but when I select it there is just a brief flicker, but the resolution appears totally unchanged looking like 720x480 or something.

I was hoping this was going to be the answer to my problem.

[jreichen]

I don't know what to tell you as far as fixing your setup, but I can tell you that the output on my 1366x768 50" Samsung plasma via HDMI is excellent. Hopefully somebody out there will have some suggestions for you.

[moamoa]

Originally Posted by jreichen

I don't know what to tell you as far as fixing your setup, but I can tell you that the output on my 1366x768 50" Samsung plasma via HDMI is excellent. Hopefully somebody out there will have some suggestions for you.

What display settings do you have the extender set to for "Output Display"? I'm using a Samsung 1366x768 too?

[_Demo_]

Originally Posted by moamoa

I've tried adding this to the clients properties;

extender_resolution_extra_modes=1366x768p@60|VESA_1366x768x60

I think this should be

extender_resolution_extra_modes=1366x768p@60|standard=VESA_1366x768x60

_Demo_

[appelm]

I noticed a lot of softness in the picture through HDMI. I finally managed to use a custom resolution to get 1:1 pixel mapping on my plasma (NEC 61"). See this thread: http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...0&postcount=26

With my setting for my tv, the picture quality is much better/sharper, matching what I saw before from a PC over DVI. Unfortunately, I can't get Sage to default to this custom resolution. Instead, I have to hit the Resolution button on the remote to switch it back to my resolution every time I restart the extender. As a result, I never power down the extender now unless I have to.

[jreichen]

Originally Posted by moamoa

What display settings do you have the extender set to for "Output Display"? I'm using a Samsung 1366x768 too?

I selected HDMI, then it asked me whether I wanted Sage to automatically detect the modes. I said yes. Then it displayed a screen with several resolutions. I deselected everything but 720p.

I'm happy with the output, but I'll try the suggestions from _Demo_ and appelm to see what they look like.

[moamoa]

Originally Posted by jreichen

I selected HDMI, then it asked me whether I wanted Sage to automatically detect the modes. I said yes. Then it displayed a screen with several resolutions. I deselected everything but 720p.

I'm happy with the output, but I'll try the suggestions from _Demo_ and appelm to see what they look like.

If I do as you do, then I do get a picture. But it's rubbish when I compare it to that of the PC connected to it via VGA and running Sage. It's Night and Day! Have you ever tried a PC connected to your plasma with VGA and running at 1360x768? If not, you need to try it. If you are seeing what I am seeing you will not want to switch back. Especially if you view HD or Photos.

Anyway, I have changed the line to read;
extender_resolution_extra_modes=1360x768@60|standard\=VESA_1360x768x60
(with and without the "p" after 768, as some other posts say it should/shouldn't be there)

When I pick this mode, the tv display says mode not supported.

I've tried selecting this connected via HDMI/Component/S-Video. Neither work.

I've checked windows settings when connected via VGA and it's definitely 1360x768@60 in the windows settings when working sweet.

btw, my Samsung is a PS50Q96HD. Has anyone got a custom mode of 1360x768 working on this or similar mode, giving a display equivalent to that of a PC connected at that resolution?

[Yooper]

I wish I could give you an definitive answer on how to solve your problem with video quality. When I first got my extender I had the same problem. I said "I paid $200 to get this poor picture!" However, I started working on adjusting the parameters and things eventually all worked out and I ended up with a superior picture.

The problem, of course, is that there are a zillion parameters, any one of them which could cause your problem.

I actually found the sleuthing to solve the problem to be a lot of fun. I learned a lot along the way - and a lot of satisfaction when the problem was solved.

Hang in there and keep working - you'll resolve your problem.

[perf]

A quick glance through the manual of the TV indicates that it is only able to use the native resolution via VGA. HDMI seems only to support standard 720p.

I might be wrong though...

/Per

[moamoa]

Originally Posted by perf

A quick glance through the manual of the TV indicates that it is only able to use the native resolution via VGA. HDMI seems only to support standard 720p.

I might be wrong though...

/Per

I think you are right.

Using sagetv via the VGA in native resolution is amazing. Most noticeable on the menus and user interface. You obviouslt can't get better than this as it's rendered in a 1:1 pixel manner. Other than the VGA all the other inputs do not seem to support native resolutions. Only 720 and 1080.

Therefore I need to set the Extender for either of these, which works. In this manner the Extender will render the image to say 1920x1080 and pass this to the HDMI, The TV then scales this 1080 image to fit it's 768 display, or a 720p to the 768 display.

When watching a DVB source this is actually not bad. Even if I play a HD-WMV file encoded at 1080 though this the image is much better than SD on this setup. However the menu and user interface look worst.

I can see how someone going staight to this setup and not having tried native resolution thought VGA would think this acceptable. However. I think had they played a HD file through VGA on a PC they would see my point.

Since I have seen how well it can perform in native resolution using VGA, I can't really accept the downgrade. So, I think I'm just going to go back to a PC on this display.

I take it on a full 1920x1080 plasma the extender would do a 1:1 pixel map and the image would be perfect?

How does the image compare with that of a PC like that. I found the nVidia codec for DVB to be super, id the codec is the Extender on a par with the likes of this?

[elaw]

I can back up what Perf said...

I've got a 42" HP plasma with native resolution of 1024x768. When I first got it I used a VGA hookup to my HTPC with excellent results. But I wanted to try a digital hookup so got an HDMI cable, plugged it in, and... the picture looked awful!

Did some research and apparently there are several versions of the HDMI standard. The earlier one (which applies to my TV and seemingly yours) only supports broadcast resolutions: 720p, 1080i, and I think 480i. From what I read, later versions of HDMI support additional resolutions.

[perf]

This varies from TV to TV. My LG plasma accepts all resolutions that it recognises on the VGA input on the HDMI input as well.

/Per

[chrisc16]

Originally Posted by moamoa

I take it on a full 1920x1080 plasma the extender would do a 1:1 pixel map and the image would be perfect?

How does the image compare with that of a PC like that. I found the nVidia codec for DVB to be super, id the codec is the Extender on a par with the likes of this?

My 1080p Panny looks gorgeous with the extender - it is, as you said, a 1:1 pixel mapping. Compared to my PC (which was connected via DVI), I can't tell a difference. I always used the nVidia codec as well.

Maybe you could try an adapter like this to convert the HDMI output of the HD100 to your TVs VGA input, so you could get the native res.

-Chris

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by moamoa

If I do as you do, then I do get a picture. But it's rubbish when I compare it to that of the PC connected to it via VGA and running Sage. It's Night and Day! Have you ever tried a PC connected to your plasma with VGA and running at 1360x768? If not, you need to try it. If you are seeing what I am seeing you will not want to switch back. Especially if you view HD or Photos.

What about video? The Extender will never have menus that look as crisp as a client because they've limited the OSD rendering to 960x540 internally (for performance reasons I assume).

But video should look good regardless. If not you might want to try native output switching on the extender and enable 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i.

Originally Posted by moamoa

I think you are right.

Using sagetv via the VGA in native resolution is amazing. Most noticeable on the menus and user interface. You obviouslt can't get better than this as it's rendered in a 1:1 pixel manner. Other than the VGA all the other inputs do not seem to support native resolutions. Only 720 and 1080.

Therefore I need to set the Extender for either of these, which works. In this manner the Extender will render the image to say 1920x1080 and pass this to the HDMI, The TV then scales this 1080 image to fit it's 768 display, or a 720p to the 768 display.

When watching a DVB source this is actually not bad. Even if I play a HD-WMV file encoded at 1080 though this the image is much better than SD on this setup. However the menu and user interface look worst.

Again, don't expect miracles, the OSD will always be softer on the extender, even 1:1 mapped at 1080p (if you've got such a display).

I can see how someone going staight to this setup and not having tried native resolution thought VGA would think this acceptable. However. I think had they played a HD file through VGA on a PC they would see my point.

However that softness only applies to the the OSD/menus. Video is perfect via the extender.

Since I have seen how well it can perform in native resolution using VGA, I can't really accept the downgrade. So, I think I'm just going to go back to a PC on this display.

Don't get (too) hung up on how the OSD/menus look, (IMO at least) the important part is the video, and I really doubt native output from the extender letting the TV do the scaling would be much different than having the extender (or PC) scale to the native resolution.

I take it on a full 1920x1080 plasma the extender would do a 1:1 pixel map and the image would be perfect?

Video yes, but the menus are softer than a PC client.

How does the image compare with that of a PC like that. I found the nVidia codec for DVB to be super, id the codec is the Extender on a par with the likes of this?

The Extender crushes all the PC decoders I've seen for DVB playback stability. Running native output from my extender to the Reon VX scaler in my projector is noticeably better for SD than playback via the PC and letting it do the scaling.

HD is probably a tossup, but like I said, the extender's HD output is perfect as near as I can tell.

Originally Posted by elaw

Did some research and apparently there are several versions of the HDMI standard. The earlier one (which applies to my TV and seemingly yours) only supports broadcast resolutions: 720p, 1080i, and I think 480i. From what I read, later versions of HDMI support additional resolutions.

It's not HDMI, it's the TV, or perhaps more specifically the HDMI interface on the TV. Actually most HDMI interfaces, even today only support the standard HD resolutions (480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p).

[moamoa]

stanger,

I agree with pretty much all your comment and have a good feel for the pros and cons now.

Menus... fair enough, not such a big deal really, it just highlighted the crips quality of the native pc output.

However, I don't totally agree on the scaling point. I am using the nVidia codec and find that much better at scaling to 768 than the Extender/TV combo does, even with native switching on. Maybe this is just the codec. I tried other codecs and the standard sagetv one, all were poor for me. The nVidia one was superb for me, vastly better than all others. If I compare the non nvidia setup to the extender/tv combo, things would be much closer.

Same for HD. Playing at 1080 HD file into the TV with the extender at 1080, is just not quite there when compared to the PC.

I think if I had a 1080 TV, I would have no issues (at least that is my feeling). But I seriously don't think you get quite the same quality of image using the extender with a diplsay that is not a match to a standard format.

I will be trying the extender on someone else 1080 TV soon, so that will be interesting.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by moamoa

However, I don't totally agree on the scaling point. I am using the nVidia codec and find that much better at scaling to 768 than the Extender/TV combo does, even with native switching on. Maybe this is just the codec. I tried other codecs and the standard sagetv one, all were poor for me. The nVidia one was superb for me, vastly better than all others. If I compare the non nvidia setup to the extender/tv combo, things would be much closer.

Well, it's going to depend on the TV too, I've got a very nice HQV Reon VX processor in my projector. I've seen less difference, or the PC being better with previous displays.

Same for HD. Playing at 1080 HD file into the TV with the extender at 1080, is just not quite there when compared to the PC.

Interesting, your TV must have a pretty poor scaler in it then.

I think if I had a 1080 TV, I would have no issues (at least that is my feeling). But I seriously don't think you get quite the same quality of image using the extender with a diplsay that is not a match to a standard format.

I think you can, but it all depends on the processor in the TV, and I suppose there's a high probability that the "odd-sized" 768p sets used scalers that are quite poor compared to what's on most (newer) 1080p sets.

I will be trying the extender on someone else 1080 TV soon, so that will be interesting.

If you can, make a note of what video processor it has in it.