Newbie a bit overwhelmed...

[Denvas]

Hi,

My 2nd Tivo crapped out on me - and I'm simply sick of it. I refuse to buy another one. Did some Google'ing, and came across this.

I think Sage is what I'm looking for.

So I have a couple of questions...
1) Is it possible to record On-Demand channels, or premium Channels? I was looking at the Moxi ($799 @ Amazon - Yikes!), and it looks like it picks up the programming straight from the Cable Card provided by Cox (I'm in Vegas). And can do 2 channels at the same time. IF Sage can't do this, can it record channels like Sci-Fi, USA, HBO, etc?

2) I'm not entirely sure what Sage is in the first place, but what do I need to buy (and from where) to pretty much accomplish step 1?

In other words, if I were to say, "Yes, I want to get this now" - what do I buy? I don't care if gets a little pricey, if it has oodles of features. (Moxi doesn't seem to)

Thanks all, for your patience, and reading this post

- Denvas

[wado1971]

Originally Posted by Denvas

1) Is it possible to record On-Demand channels, or premium Channels?

This is more a question of which tuner hardware you want to purchase. SageTV supports a large variety of capture hardware which will allow recording of both SD & HD content. Hauppauge is a good company to check out for capture hadware & when talking HD content from a cablebox (including premium channels & OnDemand) then you'll want to look at the HD-PVR which is the HTPC's holy grail & the answer to the CableCard problems.

Originally Posted by Denvas

I don't care if gets a little pricey, if it has oodles of features.

SageTV definitely has oodles of features and I'm sure everyone on the forums will have fun spending your cash

Originally Posted by Denvas

2) I'm not entirely sure what Sage is in the first place

SageTV is primarily a software co. but also produces hardware products called extenders. Maybe some history will clear it up.

In the beginning ... you needed to 1) have a computer 2) add a capture card 3) plug in your cable feed (svideo, coax) 4) install the SageTV Media Center software 5) plug the computer into your tv. Typically placed in the living room by the TV. This promoted HTPC enthusiasts to build quite, nice looking slim computers for the living room.

SageTV added it's "Client" software which allowed you to either 1) build another computer, place it in another room, and connect to the 1st computer to access/stream all the recordings & stored video/music from the 1st unit OR 2) purchase an extender (inexpensive Hardware device from SageTV) to access the content from the 1st machine (the "server). The second option allowed people to move that computer from the living room into the basement. Now we have a "Server" with the SageTV Media Center software in the basement and the small extender next to the tv. I think SageTV was the first HTPC software to offer this great 'new' feature.

SageTV then added the Placeshifter software which pretty much added SlingBox functionality to the software (this is before slingbox was a household name). Very forward thinking.

With the transition to HD, SageTV software has been very aggressive to support this content by 1) supporting HD capture cards such as the Hauppauge HD-PVR & HVR-2250 etc. 2) constantly improving it's software playback of HD & 3) Introducing the HD-100 & HD-200 extenders to stream HD content from the main SageTV computer. This is basically where we're at now.

Originally Posted by Denvas

what do I buy?

Good question. SageTV sells the software, Extenders, and you'll find capture cards on it's site. Although, they currently do not offer the most crucial part - the main computer!! No biggy.. you can build your own, buy off the shelf or just use what you have by adding a capture card. What computer is dependent on your use. Is it coupled with extenders or a standalone? HD or SD content?

Edit: This post has a very good discussion on setting up sagetv. Make sure to check out the link on post #14 in this thread by ShadeBlue (very cool!) http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...hlight=diagram

[matt91]

This is a direct link to the diagram that Wado refers to: http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/down...w-res)_Y60.png

[Djc208]

Originally Posted by Denvas

1) Is it possible to record On-Demand channels, or premium Channels? I was looking at the Moxi ($799 @ Amazon - Yikes!), and it looks like it picks up the programming straight from the Cable Card provided by Cox (I'm in Vegas). And can do 2 channels at the same time. IF Sage can't do this, can it record channels like Sci-Fi, USA, HBO, etc?

You can record on-demand, though it would need to be handled "manually" by either setting a timed recording or starting the show and hitting record. You can't just select it off the listing within Sage and have it record.

Sage has no real limit on the number of capture devices it can pull content from. So technically you could be recording 12 shows at one time, assuming you had the hardware to support that.

With the right hardware and setup SageTV software can capture anything you recieve via your cable signal (plus online content too). It's just a matter of what you want to capture and how you're going to do it.

2) I'm not entirely sure what Sage is in the first place, but what do I need to buy (and from where) to pretty much accomplish step 1?

SageTV at it's core is a software program that allows you to record TV shows. Think of it like the software that runs on your TiVo, only rather than being tied to the hardware you can install this on any computer that will support it. The advantage here is flexability. While a Tivo is easy to setup and use, it's limited in it's capabilities. SageTV gives you the flexability to do just about anything, and it can be very easy to use, but the setup part can be another issue entirely.

In other words, if I were to say, "Yes, I want to get this now" - what do I buy? I don't care if gets a little pricey, if it has oodles of features. (Moxi doesn't seem to)

Well oodles of features is why most of us chose Sage in the first place There are however two prices involved with that. Cost and setup, depending on how extensive you want to get and what parts you have vice what you need to buy it can be more expensive than a stand-alone solution like TiVo. Since it's computer based you also run into all the issues you can have on a computer any time you try and do something. The more features and devices you try and add/interface the more issues you can have.

By no means am I trying to talk you out of using Sage, naturally we'll all tell you how wonderful it is. When it's set up and working properly it will make you wonder how you ever lived without it. However as you can see by the size of this forum there are lots of questions and frustration in getting it set up and working the way everyone wants.

Look around, read the linked posts, maybe even try the trial software. If you decide you want to join the madness then feel free to ask for help, that's why we're here. Good luck.

[pjpjpjpj]

Originally Posted by Denvas

2) I'm not entirely sure what Sage is in the first place, but what do I need to buy (and from where) to pretty much accomplish step 1?

Welcome, Denvas.
Here's a simple thing I whipped up for another thread:

Pick A, B, or C:
A) I want a simple box at each TV that accesses a central server PC (with all my media on it), that is hidden away somewhere (no intent to watch TV on it!).

B) I have multiple PCs (or will buy them) because I would rather have a fully-functional PC at each TV/monitor.

C) At least one of my TVs will have the server computer "at" it, or I want to make the server PC monitor another "TV viewing station"... but I will have multiple other TVs that are on the system, with no PC at those.


Then answer these:

1) Number of TV and/or PCs used for viewing that you would like on your system.

2) Most amount of shows that you might ever want to record simultaneously (note that live TV viewing through the Sage system counts as "recording"). So if you were recording a show, watching another show "live", and two different people were watching other shows "live" on other TVs/PCs, that would be 4.

3) Do you have a home network, or even just a wireless router that has some network jacks on the back? If so, is it 10/100, or 10/100/1000?


Finally, do you need all of your recording tuners (answer to #1 above) to be able to record HD and/or premium content all the time? Or could you possibly get away with having only one or two tuners that could record premium, and maybe another one or two that can only record local channels (either digital/HD, or SD), and maybe another tuner or two or three that can only record basic analog cable in SD (no premiums, no HD)?

While some might say "I need 4 tuners, and I want them all to be able to record all the premiums in HD", the truth is, many people might only ever be recording one or two things at a time from premium HD channels, and might be able to tolerate other shows that happen to record at the same time, from, say, HGTV, to be standard def analog 4:3 (many cable channels, though offered in HD, don't carry that much HD content). So think about how many of your tuner streams (that could be recording simultaneously, from #1 above) you would really need to be digital/HD/premium-compatible (note that Sage is smart enough to assign shows to the correct tuners if certain shows are only on premium channels). If you are not sure, and money is no object, that is fine, but you can save a lot of money and gadgetry if you can step back and say "the only time that I ever record three shows at once, two of them are on my local CBS and NBC affiliates and only one is a premium channel" or something like that.


If you can answer the above stuff fairly simply, we can lay out a fairly simple "you need this, this, and this" for you.

[kjgarrison]

Not a hijacking. Just a merge.

I'm in the same (leaking) boat as the OP.

I've looked around this forum enough over the past hour to know that my ONLY source, DirecTV, works with SageTV. (I live in the country: no OTA, no cable)

If this is too specific of a question for this thread, just shoo me off to the right one.

How many simultaneous viewings/recordings is possible with DTV? I know each tuner is capable of two, but my service would support as many as 8 I believe. The most I would want is 4, however. (HD)

[Apap]

Originally Posted by kjgarrison

Not a hijacking. Just a merge.

I'm in the same (leaking) boat as the OP.

I've looked around this forum enough over the past hour to know that my ONLY source, DirecTV, works with SageTV. (I live in the country: no OTA, no cable)

If this is too specific of a question for this thread, just shoo me off to the right one.

How many simultaneous viewings/recordings is possible with DTV? I know each tuner is capable of two, but my service would support as many as 8 I believe. The most I would want is 4, however. (HD)

Sagetv really does not have a limit on how many sources it can have. I have 3 Directv boxes hooked up to my server. 1 HD receiver connected via a Hauppauge HD-PVR and 2 SD receivers connected via a PVR-500 and could add more if I chose to.

[autoboy]

With SageTV you will need as many DirectTV or cable boxes as you want tuners. Each box will only tune one channel at a time so there is no point in getting dual tuner boxes. Then you will route the component output from each DirectTV or Cable box into the HD-PVR encoder box. That HD-PVR will convert the output from the cable box into a stream of video for the computer. The computer will then dump it to its harddrive. This is all managed wonderfully by sageTV and is an excelent PVR solution.

I recommend you find an old PC to install SageTV on and use the HD200 extender to play the content. using the PC to display the video can cause issues for even the most experienced PC user.

[TallMomof2]

You can only hook up one tuner card/usb device per box even though the box is capable of recording 2 channels.

[kjgarrison]

Thanks everybody.

I found this graphic.
http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/down...w-res)_Y60.png

Very helpful to a noob.

It IS all somewhat overwhelming.

I have done a TON of research into wiring planning for AV distribution. That topic alone is overwhelming as well.

I have some open walls/subfloors/ceilings at the moment, and I want to put at least a pull cord in place. Even that requires knowing how many wires are needed and what size hole(s) to cut. Based on that diagram, it looks like I will only need ONE ethernet wire for everything. Is this right? Just ONE??

[pjpjpjpj]

Originally Posted by kjgarrison

Based on that diagram, it looks like I will only need ONE ethernet wire for everything. Is this right? Just ONE??

Yes, one cable from your router/switch/hub to each TV or "client PC". And of course, one to your server.

All of your DirecTV boxes will be at the server. You said you want 4 tuners... Your DirecTV line(s) will come into the house, run to wherever your server is located, and at that location you will have 4 DirecTV HD boxes, and 4 HD-PVRs, connected to each other via component. Each HD-PVR connects to the server via USB. From that point, the only thing sending stuff out to your TVs is the network cable from the server to your router/switch/hub. Then you will have an HD Extender at each TV in your house, which will act like a set-top box for that TV.

I think the thing that confuses most newcomers is that you don't have to have a cable from the satellite provider running to each TV anymore. All of your STBs are located in one place, at the server, which could be hidden away in a basement closet if you want. All the media goes into the server, and from that point is distributed throughout the house via your home network.

[autoboy]

If you are building out a house I would run one Coax and one ethernet to each location you want to have a TV. The coax will be handy if this system doesn't last or you want to sell the house. The ethernet should run to a good location for a central server, and the coax should run to where you want to distribute TV. Then, if you want to have wall mounted TVs then you might want to run HDMI in the walls too.

[shadeblue.com]

Originally Posted by kjgarrison

Thanks everybody.

I found this graphic.
http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/down...w-res)_Y60.png

Very helpful to a noob.

It IS all somewhat overwhelming.

I have done a TON of research into wiring planning for AV distribution. That topic alone is overwhelming as well.

I have some open walls/subfloors/ceilings at the moment, and I want to put at least a pull cord in place. Even that requires knowing how many wires are needed and what size hole(s) to cut. Based on that diagram, it looks like I will only need ONE ethernet wire for everything. Is this right? Just ONE??

Hi kjgarrison,

Glad my diagram was somewhat helpful, that is what I intended it for. But please note that that is just one configuration and distribution example.

As for the wiring, yes you can get away with just a single CAT-5E/6 ethernet cable distributed to each endpoint for a 100 mb or preferably gigabit network. However if you are going to be in this house for a while, you may want to think about a multi-cable that can offer you a variety of choices with plans for future growth. I know the cabling can be expensive up front, but later down the road your be thankful you have it. I installed a single multi-cable that included 2 CAT 5E, 2 RJ6 COAX, and 2 Fiber to each endpoint in my house. I was using the RJ6 COAX lines before I had Sage and now I am using the CAT5 Ethernet lines. The fiber lines are "dark" (not in use) because I don't have a way to terminate them much less can I afford the encoder and decoders (modulators). But in time ... oh baby!

Here are some examples of "Structured Wiring" cables.
http://www.newtechindustries.com/new..._products.html

-SB

[Denvas]

Wow!!! Thank you all!

You guys are all great. I'm away on vacation, and haven't had time to get online. I come back, and SOOO much helpful info.

You guys really put it in a way I could understand, and really appreciate that.

I guess, at this point, I have to determine what my goal is, and work backwards with these helpful suggestions.

The possibilities look awesome. Think I'm going to have 1 HD TV for now, and 2 regular TV's. So, that's 1 HD tuner, and 2 analog ones (and as I understand it, will all go into one really powerful server). Then I'll buy 3 extenders to actually play these (at each TV).

I also like the idea of keeping DVD collections on a server. Heck, I'll put my BluRay collection there as well

Think I'll buy a tuner card, and try out the free trial for now on my Vista 64bit machine (will find out if it's compatible). And if I can get it working, time to buy a killer server, and work my way up slowly, I guess.

Thanks again all,
Happy Holidays/Merry Xmas!!

-Denvas

[Djc208]

You really don't need a "killer server" if all your playback is via extender. The cards do all the encoding, the HD extenders do all the decoding, the server just stores and retrieves data, runs the program and maybe comskip and the sage webserver.

There's no problem with high power in the server, but most of the time it won't get utilized. My suggestion would be a good motherboard with lots of connectivity, a low TDP CPU for energy savings, and spend the money on good HDDs and your tuner cards.

The other big question will be what OS you run on the server, I'd suggest XP or WHS.

[popechild]

Originally Posted by Denvas

The possibilities look awesome. Think I'm going to have 1 HD TV for now, and 2 regular TV's. So, that's 1 HD tuner, and 2 analog ones (and as I understand it, will all go into one really powerful server). Then I'll buy 3 extenders to actually play these (at each TV).

Note that just because you'll have 1 HDTV and 2 SDTVs does not mean that you need 1 HD tuner and 2 SD tuners. Individual tuners are not tied to individual tvs. All of your tuners feed content (whether HD or SD) into your server, which then sends it out to as many TVs as you have connected.

So for instance, you could have just one HD tuner, and watch the content from that tuner on any of your tvs, whether HD or SD. You could have three tuners, all HD, so that you could watch 3 different programs at the same time on any of the 3 tvs, even if the TV is not HD. The problem with 1 HD tuner and 2 SD tuners is when you record two shows at once, one of them will always be in SD. And when you go to watch that show later on your nice HD tv, it's still going to be an SD signal.

The only caveat to all the above is in how you playback HD content on your SD tvs. There are 2 basic ways - 1) use an SD extender 2) use an HD extender (like the HD200). If you use an HD extender, you'll still have to output an SD signal from the box to your tv, so it won't benefit you at all in PQ. But if you use an SD extender (like the MVP) it will require the server to transcode any HD material you watch on it on the fly. This means a relatively beefy server, and possible hiccups during playback if transcoding doesn't happen fast enough.

Even though the HD200 costs a little more, I'd recommend getting it for your extender on all your tvs, even the SD ones. You'll save some money by not needing as beefy a server, you won't have to have anything transcoded on the fly, and when you finally upgrade those TVs to HD, you'll already be all set on the Sage side.

-popechild (SD free since 2003)

[Djc208]

Originally Posted by popechild

The problem with 1 HD tuner and 2 SD tuners is when you record two shows at once, one of them will always be in SD. And when you go to watch that show later on your nice HD tv, it's still going to be an SD signal.

I would qualify this by saying that it's always good to look at what you usually record when selecting tuners. A lot of the cable linup is still SD, so an SD tuner still isn't a bad thing to have in the system. Where you have an SD and an HD channel of the same station, Sage is smart enough to try and get the HD recording first before falling back to SD.

With the new hybrid tuners like the HVR-2250 things get a little easier since each tuner can pull either unscrabled HD or analog SD so you have more flexability in your setup. But I would agree with Popechild, if anything I'd do more HD tuners than SD. An HD-PVR can always record an SD channel but an SD tuner will never give you HD.

[pjpjpjpj]

popechild - if I ever get around to writing a "newbie instruction manual" (like I keep thinking I should), I want to steal your above post explaining about tuners and SD/HD "needs". Well said.

Djc208 as well... though in my post #5 above (at the bottom), I sorta tried to explain the same thing...