Network switches? Recommened? To be avoided?

[psklenar]

Good morning,

I've yet to draw up a nice network diagram of my house (home runs of CAT5e from each room to basement wiring closet), but hopefully I can provide enough info here for someone to offer suggestions ...

• Router: Linksys WRT54GS (v7) w/built-in 4x 10/100MB port switch
• Main house switch: Netgear GS116 w/16x 10/100/1000 ports, connected to Router
• Greatroom switch: Netgear GS605 w/5x 10/100/1000 ports, connected to Router (currently has HD200, 1xPC(weather station) and 1x Wx webcam)
• Office switch: DLink DGS-2208 w/8x 10/100/1000 ports, connected to Main house switch (GS116) (currently has HD200, personal laptop, office laptop, main PC and 2x Wx webcams)
• SageTV Server: connected to Main house switch (GS116)
• Greatroom HD200: connected to Greatroom switch (GS605)
• Office HD200: connected to Office switch (DGS-2208)
• Home Theater HD200: connected to Router (WRT54GS)

Here's the issue ... playback on the Greatroom and Office HD200's has been perfect since implementation (<2wks ago, so I'm obviously still new to Sage & the configurations). However, I initially had the Home Theater HD200 connected to a port on the GS116 and playback was terrible w/tremendous stuttering (both in standalone "online" and "local media" (from file server) and when connected to the SageTV Server). I tried three different ports on the GS116 w/ the same poor performance. I tried a 2nd HD200 (from upstairs) ... same stuttering.

I then used a long (100') cable to run the Home Theater HD200 upstairs to the GS605 in the Greatroom and there was no more stuttering. So I then went into the wiring closet and moved the Home Theater HD200's patch cable from the GS116 to an open port on the WRT54GS and ... no more stuttering.

Okay ... so that made me suspect a problem in the GS116 (remember, I tried three different ports on there) handling the stream from the SageTV server to an HD200 since the Home Theater & Greatroom HD200's are now connected to the network thru the 10/100 ports on the WRT54GS. But then it dawned on me that the Office HD200 is connected to the GS116 & not the WRT54GS, albeit there is a DGS-2208 in between them. So that makes me wonder if the "issue" is when the SageTV server and an HD200 are both directly connected to the GS116 that is mitigated when there's another switch between the HD200 & the GS116?

So right now, I have everything "working", but two of the HD200's have a 10/100 switch between them and the 10/100/1000 switch that the SageTV server is connected to ... and I'd really like to get everything inside the house on a gigabit network, even if the actual devices are limited to 100mb.

One - does the above make any sense to anyone?
Two - does anyone have a 16/24 port gigabit switch that they would recommend as a possible replacement for the GS116 (15 ports are used and the 16th is occasionally in use when I bring my laptop down there for use while working on the server or other hobbies in the basement (I'm a ham too))?

Thank you,
pat----

[Menehune]

My netgear 5 port and 8 port gigabit switches (the ones in the blue metal case) work fine for me.
I do have a flaky connector on the uplink cable between my router and my switch though. That's what I get for buying a cheap non-ratcheting crimper. The connector only loses it's link if I move the switch, so to fix it I tap the cable and the activity light starts blinking again.

What is the resolution of your Wx webcams? QCIF, CIF, "HD"? They may be swamping the DGS2208 with data which may be using up the bandwidth on the WRT54GS .

My network was noticably slower going thru my wrt54gs so I got the gigabit switch to move most of the data from my sage server and clients off the 10/100 switch in the router.

[CollinR]

I have had problems with Netgear too but all my units were PoE and I had somewhat assumed it was a bad PoE implmentation. You were lucky to get 25mbps through them but they could burst data much more.

These were used with IP based CCTV cameras of the megapixel variety easily eating 30-40mbps per camera.

[psklenar]

Webcams are 640x480 ... updating every 15 seconds. Really don't even need that since my wx PC currently only retrieves an image once every 10 minutes, but ... <shrug>

Note, the HD200's connected to the DSG2208 and the GS605 (where the webcams connect to) have never demonstrated any stuttering. The only time I've seen the stuttering was when an HD200 was connected to the same switch (GS116) as the SageTV server without another switch between the HD200 and the GS116.

No PoE (currently ... *may* go that route if I hit the lottery and buy an external camera/housing setup ).

It seems to me that I could maybe expect a throughput issue due to an overwhelmed 10/100 switch (e.g.; the WRT52GS's built-in 4-port switch), but for the life of me, I can't figure why I'd have problems with the server and the extender directly connected to ports on the same GB switch (i.e.; no 2nd switch between the HD200 and the GS116)?

pat----

[mayamaniac]

I would suspect the Linksys WRT54GS router as culprit for stuttering, not the switches. Maybe here's your chance to upgrade to N draft and gigabit router. I use a D-Link DIR-655 and would recommend it.

[CollinR]

Most of my setups have a WRT54GS or few in them running DDWRT firmware, thus far no troubles. When I changed the Netgear switches to Dells the WRT54GS stayed.

WRT54GS I have installed craploads of them.

[psklenar]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

I would suspect the Linksys WRT54GS router as culprit for stuttering, not the switches. Maybe here's your chance to upgrade to N draft and gigabit router. ...

Unfortunately, since I work at home part time I need a router that my employer will support VPN over and they give me a very limited list to work from ... and there are no DLinks on it at all (i had to replace a DLink with the Linksys) and no "N" routers either.

But as to your point that the WRT54GS might be causing the problem ... the stutter happens when I don't route the HD200 thru it. If I do route the HD200 thru the WRT54GS, there is no stutter. Good try tho.


CollinR, What do you think of DD-WRT? I've got an old (hardware v2) WRT54GS that I'm planning to try and flash with DD-WRT. The one feature I really want is the ability to monitor & report on my whole-house bandwidth now that more ISPs are starting to impose monthly limits, although there are some other features that look interesting.

Thanks,
pat----

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by psklenar

Unfortunately, since I work at home part time I need a router that my employer will support VPN over and they give me a very limited list to work from ... and there are no DLinks on it at all (i had to replace a DLink with the Linksys) and no "N" routers either.

But as to your point that the WRT54GS might be causing the problem ... the stutter happens when I don't route the HD200 thru it. If I do route the HD200 thru the WRT54GS, there is no stutter. Good try tho.

My point was that the WRT54GS is still doing all the routing as it is the router, whether you are connecting directly to it or thru a switch, and so it could be behaving oddly. Of course it's just my guess, it could be a wiring problem or the Netgear switch.

[CollinR]

Love DDWRT! it'll be a long time before I buy an unsupported router

I don't use the graphing but when I played with it was very impressed.


Your WRT54GS v7 is also supported, dunno how that might effect your VPN situation.

[psklenar]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

My point was that the WRT54GS is still doing all the routing as it is the router, whether you are connecting directly to it or thru a switch, and so it could be behaving oddly. Of course it's just my guess, it could be a wiring problem or the Netgear switch.

Ah! But if both devices are connected to the same switch, the switch maintains a look up table of what IP (Layer 3) and/or MAC address(Layer 2) is connected to each port and will send the traffic from one port to the next without going all the way back to the router.

hmmm ... let's see ...

GS116 - stores up to 8000 MAC addresses, has buffers for 512KB per port, supports up to 2Gb speed for full duplex (1Gb each way) and 9000 byte jumbo frames.

GS605 - stores up to 4000 MAC addresses, has buffers for 128KB per port, supports up to 2Gb speed for full duplex (1Gb each way) and 9000 byte jumbo frames.

DSG-2208 - stores up to 4000 MAC addresses, has buffers for 144KB per port, supports up to 2Gb speed for full duplex (1Gb each way) and 9000 byte jumbo frames.

WRT54GS - unable to find documentation about it's lookup table or buffers. But being 10/100, it certainly doesn't support jumbo frames.

But the HD200's are 10/100 devices themselves, so there's no chance of jumbo frames having anything to do with it. I'm puzzled. <sigh>

pat----

[psklenar]

Originally Posted by CollinR

Your WRT54GS v7 is also supported, dunno how that might effect your VPN situation.

Yeah, I know the v7 is "supported", but with "only" 16MB of RAM and 2MB of flash, it's limited to the "micro" version. The v2 box has 32MB of RAM and 8MB of flash ... all sorts of room to get in trouble with.

And I'll have the v7 router as a standby in case the DD-WRT modified one causes VPN issues (altho I doubt it will and hope it won't).

The GS116 seems to handle other traffic just fine (I've running eight gaming PC's (all with Gb NICs), as well as the regular setup, on it at times) ... the only problem I've had is streaming from one port to another directly. If I have another switch (either 10/100 or Gb) between the HD200 and the GS116 ... it's perfectly smooth. hmmm ....

pat----

[sic0048]

I would second the idea of using DD-WRT on the old router. If that seems a little daunting, then try Tomato which is just as reliable, but without ALL the options. So it is better to get your feet wet with IMHO. Both will allow you to monitor network bandwidth usage.

I actually use one of each in my house (main router running Tomato as well as a DD-WRT enabled Wireless AP). I just checked and the "Uptime" on the Tomato router is 50 days now. It would be longer except I was playing around in my wiring closet and had to unplug some stuff.

[Skiier__Dude]

You might want to try to download and install Network Magic from PureNetworks (now Cisco). It provides some tools for doing network analysis and optimization and would likely assist in diagnosing issues you might be having. Free 7 day trial. http://www.purenetworks.com/product/pro.php

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

My point was that the WRT54GS is still doing all the routing as it is the router, whether you are connecting directly to it or thru a switch, and so it could be behaving oddly. Of course it's just my guess, it could be a wiring problem or the Netgear switch.

Not really. Ethernet switches are smart enough to route traffic directly to their intended destination. So, if you have a 10/100 router and a gigabit switch with two computers hooked to the switch and you're copying files between the two all traffic is going to be on the gigabit switch. In this case the ONLY traffic that would be sent in the router's direction would be internet communications or DHCP requests. This is actually exactly how I have my network set up.

[psklenar]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

Not really. Ethernet switches are smart enough to route traffic directly to their intended destination. So, if you have a 10/100 router and a gigabit switch with two computers hooked to the switch and you're copying files between the two all traffic is going to be on the gigabit switch. In this case the ONLY traffic that would be sent in the router's direction would be internet communications or DHCP requests. ...

Exactly what I was trying to say above. Thanks for phrasing it more clearly.

pat----