Why should XMLTV import be so difficult?

[skoka123]

I am really appalled at the lack of inbuilt support for XMLTV source for EPG? Why is it a community plugin? Why should it be so difficult to setup?

Look at the free GBPVR! All that I had to do is to point to the xmltv file and it automatically creates the channels and loads the program data. You also have a wonderful GUI (compared to the Sage options) to edit the channel numbers.

Why oh Why should it be so difficult to setup channels with XMLTV source? Is it because SageTV is happy to limit their customer base to North America? Even the supposedly difficult to setup Media Portal handles XMLTV channel setup much better than SageTV.

This is a real bummer

[gplasky]

Here is a test report from the latest grabbers that work with XMLTV. XMLTV Test Report
Is it any wonder why Sage doesn't want to support XMLTV by building it in? They have provided a way of getting the info in from any xmltv source. But it is up to the plugin builders to get it in and get it in easily. Stephane has built one and from the posts in that thread it looks like it works very well. SageTV provides a connection to the tv tv services Guide Data also. You just need an account. They have provided the path to get the info in there. If it is too difficult then someone needs to build a better plugin. As it stands now their customer base is not limmited to North America. As can be witnessed by their various International user forums. I would venture to guess is that it is a legal question about gaining access to TV guide info thru xmltv. The U.S data Sage gets they pay for it. That's why some of the grabbers continue to get broken because the companies that own that info want to charge for it and don't want to give it away for free.

Gerry

[skoka123]

Oops! Sorry! I think I did not elaborate my point clearly.

I already have an XMLTV file. Here in India, I have managed to get the only EPG provider (who provides to most of the Satellite TV providers) to part with their data in XMLTV format for free. (We are in the testing phase of getting XMLTV format files through epgstream.net.)

epgstream.net is a beautiful example of how xmltv download and import into PVRs should be. You give it a source to download your XMLTV from. Next, if required, it can also create a proxy guide service for Vista Media Center which replaces the native Guide service of VMC and reads the local XMLTV file and loads into VMC Guide. To top it of, epgstream has some excellent video tutorials on youtube (search for epgstream on youtube). It is one of the slickest interface I have come across in the PVR domain.

If not epgstream, we anyway have the wonderful mc2xml to get our XMLTV files (India is one of the countries that MS has EPG for).

Anyway, coming back to my point, once I have my local copy of XMLTV file in PVRs like GBPVR all that I have to do is to point the location of the XMLTV file and the program guide is fully loaded into the application. Similar is the case with Media Portal and both these are free apps.

So coming back to my point: Why should it be so complicated to load XMLTV data into SageTV?

I would expect a PVR to ask for an XMLTV file location and just load the file into the EPG. Now it is a different matter how you get the XMLTV file in the first place. This is where I would think plugins should come into picture - for downloading the XMLTV data. Loading that data in to the application should be part of the base functionality.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by skoka123

Oops! Sorry! I think I did not elaborate my point clearly.

I already have an XMLTV file. Here in India, I have managed to get the only EPG provider (who provides to most of the Satellite TV providers) to part with their data in XMLTV format for free. (We are in the testing phase of getting XMLTV format files through epgstream.net.)

epgstream.net is a beautiful example of how xmltv download and import into PVRs should be. You give it a source to download your XMLTV from. Next, if required, it can also create a proxy guide service for Vista Media Center which replaces the native Guide service of VMC and reads the local XMLTV file and loads into VMC Guide. To top it of, epgstream has some excellent video tutorials on youtube (search for epgstream on youtube). It is one of the slickest interface I have come across in the PVR domain.

If not epgstream, we anyway have the wonderful mc2xml to get our XMLTV files (India is one of the countries that MS has EPG for).

Anyway, coming back to my point, once I have my local copy of XMLTV file in PVRs like GBPVR all that I have to do is to point the location of the XMLTV file and the program guide is fully loaded into the application. Similar is the case with Media Portal and both these are free apps.

So coming back to my point: Why should it be so complicated to load XMLTV data into SageTV?

I would expect a PVR to ask for an XMLTV file location and just load the file into the EPG. Now it is a different matter how you get the XMLTV file in the first place. This is where I would think plugins should come into picture - for downloading the XMLTV data. Loading that data in to the application should be part of the base functionality.

Did you look at or use this tool at all? Stephane's XMLTV ImporterThe setup of the tool is all one time. And it is optimized to be used with SageTV. And it's all an automated dwnload for the XLTV info after the setup. You complain about community plugins yet all the examples you use about XMLTV (epgstream.net, mc2xml)is basically the same thing. A 3rd party tool to get your data into your program of choice. I don't use XMLTV (use to-a long time ago)and going through the setup and the FAQ of Stephane's XMLTV Importer I don't see any difficulty or problem using it with SageTV. And as long as the XMLTV hs complete information (episode, first run-rerun, etc.)it will work fine with SageTV.

Gerry

[skoka123]

The only reason I am cribbing about community plugins for something that I believe should be in the base product is that it is a paid software.

I have actually used Stephane's XMLTV importer but for some reason it is not showing up properly. It is highly likely that I have missed out on some steps because I discovered this page (http://www.lmgestion.net/@en-us/4/22/59/86/article.asp) only today. I will be reinstalling it later today.

My point is not to compare Stephane's XMLTV plugin with another plugin of someother PVR but to question why such basic functionality is missing in the application natively. Another point to note is that after paying $140 (server + 2 clients) the customer is expected to pay another 15 euros just to import XMLTV data into the application! I do understand that the plugin does much more than loading the XMLTV data into the EPG. I still feel that at least the basic loading of the XMLTV data into SageTV should be part of the application and then if one needs better handling of episode recordings, categorizations and other goodies a plugin (even if a paid one, afterall the developer needs to make money) is justified.

It is just my opinion and I guess you probably wouldn't agree with it.

It is said that a picture speaks a thousand words. I don't know how many a video would translate to, but I think more and more applications should resort to video tutorials/guides than text and webpages.

As far as SageTV is concerned I doubt if there are any better softwares out there when features that I am interested are concerned (like Component input). I am actually thrilled with the picture quality of analog Component input in SageTV Vs Composite of MCE.

[MrFusion]

For what it's worth, I'm struggling with the same issue down here in Australia.

You would expect, for a paid product which as CORE FUNCTIONALITY has obtaining and using EPG data, that there was a reasonable level of support BUILT IN for ALL regions where it is sold.

But this doesn't quite seem to be the case

Whilst it can pull EPG data over-the-air for DVB-T (which is great, except the data isn't so accurate or complete here in Oz), and it does seem to support some form of XMLTV import for the US, it doesn't address the one method which seems to be universally available (and probably, on average, most accurate & up-to-date) -- generic XMLTV.

Which is just wierd, 'cos SageTV has probably got 95% of the functionality already built in.

I'm willing to accept that grabbing EPG data is not so simple, given all the various permutations & combinations of what's out there, so maybe people need to fend for themselves a bit (though I'd expect Sage to include a good chunk of the market), but surely it'd almost be a no-brainer to build in proper, generic, XMLTV import functionality to pull it in, once you've got the data?

Anyway, I've started pulling in EPG data using the lovely epgStream.net grabber (using OzTivo data); but am still working out how to get the XMLTV data INTO Sage.

And really, it kinda sucks having to pay additional to third parties for functionality which should be in the core product... (and don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go at those third parties -- they've identified a need, built something to suit, and are looking to get a few dollars for their effort -- so good on 'em!... Issue for me is that it's like buying a car and then having to pay extra for the wheel nuts, or spend a heap of time either making your own or scrabbling around looking for something suitable someone else has cobbled together and which they're willing to give you a couple of...).

[skoka123]

I wonder if they have resolved it yet? I am now using MediaPortal on one server and two extenders. Had SageTV provided this simple utility I would have gone with them. It is still not too late.

[MrFusion]

Nope, nothing 'resolved' yet -- still going to have to use a third-party tool to import XMLTV data.

Unfortunately I bought a couple of HD200s, so suffering from vendor lock-in

Was using MP and really liked it, but ended up going to the Sage solution because the extenders are really quite excellent.

What are you using as extenders for MP?

Cheers!

[skoka123]

I am using a couple of spare PCs as extenders. I plan to move to Zotac Ion based PCs. In fact Zotac launched a new Ion based PC called Zotac MAG PC. It is cute and seems to be smaller and slimmer than an XBOX 360.

[Fuzzy]

I would also believe it is a legal issue that sage stands off of XMLTV. same reason they don't build-in comskip capability. XMLTV data us USUALLY scraped from a source that is trying to sell their data, or at the very least, using advertising on their web page for revenue. Sage has taken the stance to not step on any toes. I'm fine with that. At least the don't get in the way of people like stephane making the appropriate tools. Have you guys TRIED the available tools? If it is a one-time setup, how bad is it that you are talking about switching to an inferior product?

[skoka123]

All that Sage have to do is to support a file import. Why would there be any legal issues for that? After all no other PVR software vendor has any problem with supporting XMLTV import. Comskip is a different issue all together.

Yes, I have tried the available tools. The point is that why should the customer pay for something additional to a third party when it is should actually be part of the base software.

To say one product is superior to the other is not quite right. For a paid software I would certainly expect better support.

[Fuzzy]

Actually, it is similar to comskip. Technically, all sage would have to do is support reading and interpretting of edit decision list files, nothing says they HAVE to be for skipping commercials. However, I think its understood that building in said function to sage would bring unwanted attention to the feature. If all you are talking about is wanting it to read the XMLTV files, how does that in any way make you pay money to a third party? The importing part of StephaneM's tool is free. Any payment on your part would be to acquire the XMLTV info. Them adding your requested feature would not change that.

[skoka123]

It has been about 9 months since I tried SageTV. My memory is kind of weak. If I remember correctly there was a 15 euros that is required for the XMLTV import tool not for the data.

I am not saying that Sage should provide the XML EPG (though that would be welcome). They should provide a native way of importing the XMLTV file from within the application without the need for an additional plug in considering that almost all PVR softwares whether paid or otherwise have that feature except for WMC.

[StephaneM]

Originally Posted by skoka123

I am not saying that Sage should provide the XML EPG (though that would be welcome). They should provide a native way of importing the XMLTV file from within the application without the need for an additional plug in considering that almost all PVR softwares whether paid or otherwise have that feature except for WMC.

There are many reasons for not to:

* XMLTV is rarely legitimate data : so legal issues are involved here. That's why only community PVR or Selfmade PVR software are dealing with it

* XMLTV data wasn't made equal : many variations, interpretation of the standard etc... that lead to many many many user support

* once you got the EPG data you have to map it to channels => this is usually something PVR software doesn't want to dealy with because it's a complicated subject for users. Even with SageTV native guide data it was not that great, for MCE this is the same thing. Why because users don't want to associate a channel with guide data, they just want to scan for channels and be done with it. BUT everywhere in the world you have exceptions, complicated setup etc...

As I'm directly involved here: the most difficult part of the job for a XMLTV parser is to do a good job with identification of episodes of a series (and I'm not speaking of handling first run / re run / repeats... that's another funny subject).

Usually : PVR that load XMLTV natively doesn't bother with it. For instance, with the so wonderful XMLTV native support in GBPVR : it simply completely ignored (Some other things are ignored or not working).

So you see it's not that simple to support XMLTV and support it right.

Now, if you still have problems with setting up XMLTV with SageTV I'll be happy to help you. But basically if you are using a digital tuner in SageTV the only thing you have to do is to load up the frq file SageTV use to tune in the Importer, load it, associate XMLTV data to each channel and you're done with it.

The only thing that is missing from the XMLTV Importer is that it cannot get from SageTV the lineups it already use (and I think it's better that way). The paradigm here is that you create a lineup in the Importer and force it into SageTV.

Regards,
Stéphane.

[MrFusion]

Hi Stephane,

First, let me say that I respect and admire both your product and your ability to identify and exploit this significant shortcoming in SageTV.

However... given your clear conflict of interest, I'd suggest that your involvement here is somewhat... inappropriate.

Also, the discussion is not really about how or why importing XMLTV is difficult or complex, or why it really needs us to pay for your excellent product, but rather around why Sage haven't implemented what (to at least a very small group of users) should be a core feature. Especially given that in all probability 90% of the required functionality already exists in the product.

And I certainly don't buy the "legal" argument. XMLTV is a globally accepted XML-based 'standard' for describing broadcast television programs. It has nothing to do with people doing naughty things to get the data in the first place. If there were a legal issue then a) you'd also need to be concerned with reading and writing in general, as people might use that "illegally", and b) what position does that put you in -- profiting from "illegal" activity???

Some form of EPG pimp, maybe???

I'm only joking, please don't take it seriously!

Actually, if Sage were indeed concerned with the even vague possibility of "legal" issues around reading in and using the contents of some form of generic data file, then they've got much bigger problems.

They are selling their product in countries where it is still directly and unequivocally illegal to record TV shows, and where "fair use" provisions don't exist...

[StephaneM]

Originally Posted by MrFusion

However... given your clear conflict of interest, I'd suggest that your involvement here is somewhat... inappropriate.

On the contrary. I'm involved and I know the XMLTV problematic very well. So I can give an honest and unbiased opinion on the subject : why XMLTV import is not included in SageTV...

the discussion is not really about how or why importing XMLTV is difficult or complex, or why it really needs us to pay for your excellent product

Other plugins exists... If I gave you the impression that I voice my opinion here to recommend my plugin, I'm sorry this was not and is not my intention. Also the OP was asking:

* Why is it a community plugin?
* Why should it be so difficult to setup channels with XMLTV source?

why Sage haven't implemented what (to at least a very small group of users) should be a core feature. Especially given that in all probability 90% of the required functionality already exists in the product.

That's the intention of my first post in this subject, give you my opinion about why it is so (I forget one by the way):

* legal issue (not only for the import part, but I'm sure SageTV has some obligation to comply to with its current EPG supplier, for instance if you can import, you can also export etc...)
* XMLTV standard not so standard
* Channel / Guide mapping

And the reasons I forgot to mention : SageTV does allow guide data import. They just choose to give an API instead of limiting the import to XMLTV. By allowing access to the API they do offer maximum flexibility, so as non US/Canada users get the same experience with the EPG. If SageTV supported XMLTV directly, they would have to make a design decision (for instance one XMLTV file by lineup etc..) and it certainly would not have been ok for every setup.

And I certainly don't buy the "legal" argument. XMLTV is a globally accepted XML-based 'standard' for describing broadcast television programs. It has nothing to do with people doing naughty things to get the data in the first place. If there were a legal issue then a) you'd also need to be concerned with reading and writing in general, as people might use that "illegally", and b) what position does that put you in -- profiting from "illegal" activity??? Some form of EPG pimp, maybe???

Yes exactly, but I'm very very tiny target, who's gonna sue me...? On the other hand, imagine Microsoft allowing officially third party programs guide when 99% of the guide source is stolen data... That's the issue (exact same thing with comskip...)