Trouble Getting OTA Channels Recognized in EPG

[jaydub]

I've searched this thread and I can't seem to find the answer I'm looking for. I have the following setup:
- Sage TV 6.5
- Hauppauge HD-PVR connected to Comcast Digital HD cable box
- Vista View DA-1N1-E PCI-e OTA digital tuner
When I setup the HD-PVR as a source, Channel Setup properly recognizes all the cable channels. When I setup the OTA tuner, Channel Setup scans for all available channels and automatically enables those it can receive with a green dot (in my case, there are 42 channels with a green dot). The OTA channels are marked with a major/minor designation, like 7-2 (instead of just 7 as with the cable lineup), so its obvious which are being brought in by cable vs. OTA. I take the default OTA channels (those with green dot) and click on "done with channel setup". However, when I go into the merged Program Guide, 15 of 42 OTA channels don't show up at all anywhere in the guide. Specifically, the channels with an X don't show up:

2-1 KTVUDT 44-2-1 fox affiliate
2-2 KTVUDT2 44-4-4 fox affiliate X
4-1 KRONDT 38-4-1 local
4-2 KRONDT2 38-4-2 local X
5-1 KPIXDT 29-5-1 cbs affiliate X
7-1 KGODT 7-7-1 abc affiliate X
7-2 KGODT2 7-7-2 abc affiliate X
7-3 KGODT3 7-7-3 abc affiliate X
9-1 KQEDDT 30-9-1 pbs affiliate X
9-2 KQEDDT2 30-9-2 pbs affiliate
9-3 KQEDDT3 30-9-3 pbs affiliate X
11-1 KNTVDT 12-11-1 nbc affiliate X
11-2 KNTVDT2 12-11-2 nbc affiliate X
11-3 KNTVDT3 12-11-3 nbc affiliate X
20-1 KOFYDT 19-20-1 local
20-4 KOFYDT4 19-20-4 local X
22-1 KRCBDT 23-22-1 local
22-2 KRCB-C 12-22-2 local
22-3 KRCB-FM 23-22-3 local
26-1 KTSFDT 27-26-1 local
26-2 KTSFDT2 27-26-2 local
26-3 KTSFD3 27-26-3 local
26-4 KTSFD4 27-26-4 local
28-1 DTV28.1 28-0-1 ?
28-2 DTV28.2 28-0-2 ?
32-1 KMTPDT 33-32-1 local
32-2 KMTPDT2 33-32-2 local
32-4 KMTPDT4 33-32-4 local
32-5 KMTPDT5 33-32-5 local
38-1 KCNSDT 39-38-1 local
38-2 KCNS2 39-38-2 local
44-1 KBCWDT 45-44-1 CW affiliate X
60-1 KCSMDT 43-60-1 local X
60-2 KCSMDT2 43-60-2 local
60-3 KCSMDT3 43-60-3 local
65-1 KKPXDT 41-65-1 local X
65-2 KKPXDT2 41-65-2 local
65-3 KKPXDT3 41-65-3 local
65-4 KKPXDT4 41-65-4 local
66-1 KFSFDT 34-66-1 local
66-2 KDTVDT 34-66-2 local
68-1 KTLNDT 47-68-1 local

What is the solution for this? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Opus4]

If the channels are enabled in Channel Setup, they should be listed in the Program Guide unless you are using a customization that filters them out. In the default STV, if you use the Options command while on the Program Guide menu, then configure it to sort the channels by Name, can you then find them?

If they aren't listed at all in the Program Guide, did you configure both tuners using the same lineup? If so, then disabling a channel on one tuner will also disable it on the other.

- Andy

[jaydub]

Well, I'm not quite sure how to answer those questions, but I think I'm narrowing down the issue. I decided to reverse the installation to see what would happen. I first installed the OTA tuner and channel setup, and all relevant channels are visible in Program Guide. Perfect. I then installed the comcast cable tuner and its channel setup. While all the OTA logical channels (2-1, 4-1, etc.) are still visible in Program Guide, 13 of the these channels are now hosting comcast cable programs, typically for the same affiliate. So, the OTA Fox channel (2-1 in my initial setup) now hosts Comcast Fox HD channel 702, and 702 does not show up in the Program Guide (even though it is enabled in channel setup). And OTA Fox programming is hosted nowhere (even though it is enabled in channel setup, as 2-1). It's like SAGETV says, oh, let's replace the OTA version of Fox with the comast equivalent and forget the OTA. This is not the route I want to go. I want comcast 702 to show up as 702, and Fox OTA to be present as well. This shouldn't be this hard. FYI, I have not done any remapping.

[Opus4]

Oh -- when you used the phrase "merged Program Guide", I thought you knew about how the same channels on different lineups are merged in the guide.

As a new user, you may want to consider referring to the user manual that is installed with SageTV when configuring your tuners, at least for this first time through. See the info for Source Setup on p. 151 of the v6.6 PDF manual (and/or p. 47 for the Program Guide). That info explains how channels are merged in the Program Guide.

- Andy

[jaydub]

Well, it says that if OTA KTVUDT Fox and Cable KTVUDT Fox are enabled in channel setup, only one will show, as I understand it. In my case, Comcast Cable Fox 702 is hosted on OTA Fox 21-1. What is the workaround to get both OTA and cable KTVUDT's to show up separately in Program Guide. Page 151 and 46 don't seem to directly address this.

[gjvrieze]

Originally Posted by jaydub

Well, it says that if OTA KTVUDT Fox and Cable KTVUDT Fox are enabled in channel setup, only one will show, as I understand it. In my case, Comcast Cable Fox 702 is hosted on OTA Fox 21-1. What is the workaround to get both OTA and cable KTVUDT's to show up separately in Program Guide. Page 151 and 46 don't seem to directly address this.

Leave the cable feed on channel 702 and the OTA on 2-1 (real RF channel 44-3) That way they do not get merged.

[jaydub]

No, I don't think it works that way. Program guide cannot show OTA Fox and cable Fox together at the same time. They may both appear in channel setup; however, if both are enabled, only one or the other will show up in Program Guide. In my case, Sage made cable Fox the surivor (but it shows up on the channel that would otherwise host the OTA version). I prefer OTA over cable because its less compressed. So my workaround was to disable the cable versions of network stations, which allowed the OTA versions to show up, and on the correct channel.

[carlgar]

Originally Posted by jaydub

Well, it says that if OTA KTVUDT Fox and Cable KTVUDT Fox are enabled in channel setup, only one will show, as I understand it. In my case, Comcast Cable Fox 702 is hosted on OTA Fox 21-1. What is the workaround to get both OTA and cable KTVUDT's to show up separately in Program Guide. Page 151 and 46 don't seem to directly address this.

Why do you want them shown separetely? Since it is the same station the listings will be the same. Sage will make the choice of which tuner to use to receive the station. You can use the encoder_merit property to set the tuner you prefer to use first. But it should not make a difference to you which tuner is used to record a show.

[jaydub]

The reason is, cable HD is quite compressed and falls short of a good HD broadcast in PQ. So I would naturally prefer OTA.

[carlgar]

Originally Posted by jaydub

The reason is, cable HD is quite compressed and falls short of a good HD broadcast in PQ. So I would naturally prefer OTA.

OK, then you should have the encoder_merit set so Sage will try to schedule the program using the OTA tuners first. Then Sage will only use the QAM tuner if a OTA tuner is not available. Then if you see that a program is scheduled to use a QAM tuner and you want to force it to a OTA tuner, you can mark it as a manual recording. Manual recordings are scheduled first and therefore go to the higher priority tuner, then the favorites.

[jaydub]

Sounds reasonable. Which Sage system file is encoder_merit in, and what would be the variable to change?

[Fuzzy]

the merit setting is in the sage.properties file. It can only be changed with sage completely shut down (both the UI, and the service, if used). Look for the mmc/encoder lines. Each encoder will have an encoder_merit property. Just change it so that the OTA tuner has a higher number than the cable tuner. This will put it as the preference.

[rizzo]

Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in and say I had exactly the same question/problem as Jaydub....and this thread helped me out tremendously.

BTW, Jaydub, did this finally fix your problem?

[Savage1701]

Here's my 2-cents worth - I live on a stateline and straddle the Rockford IL and Madison WI markets. I have an antenna and tuners pointed at each. Sage's service calls overlapping stations slightly different names. e.g., in Madison it's WTVODT and in Rockford it's WTVO-DT. Unless I disable the Madison version and keep the Rockford version it still messes up Sage, even though the Madison antenna can easily capture the Rockford station since the are on virtually reciprocal headings. It can get worse when one zip code calls a secondary station 17-2 and the other calls it "the CW".

Now throw in my cable company. It too has the same affiliates available to my HD-PVR. If they are enabled it messes the EPG up something fierce.

My only solution is relatively simple - Only take Rockford stations off the Rockford antenna. Only take Madison stations off the Madison antenna. Disable all the ones on my cable provider for Madison and Rockford, since my cable company compresses the heck out of them, despite all claims to the contrary, and save it for the HBO, Discovery, A&E, TLC and those sorts of cable HD's and digital tiers.

It took me a while to puzzle this one out, but then I'm not that smart and it's probably a sticky in here anyway.

In short, the EPG service is not consistent and the cable company would ball it up on top of it. My only clue was that it was the primaries getting knocked out of the EPG, rarely was it the secondaries. And, occasionally, I saw a 17-2 WTVODT and a 17-2 WTVO-DT but they did not seem to tune correctly.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Savage1701

Here's my 2-cents worth - I live on a stateline and straddle the Rockford IL and Madison WI markets. I have an antenna and tuners pointed at each. Sage's service calls overlapping stations slightly different names. e.g., in Madison it's WTVODT and in Rockford it's WTVO-DT. Unless I disable the Madison version and keep the Rockford version it still messes up Sage, even though the Madison antenna can easily capture the Rockford station since the are on virtually reciprocal headings. It can get worse when one zip code calls a secondary station 17-2 and the other calls it "the CW".

Now throw in my cable company. It too has the same affiliates available to my HD-PVR. If they are enabled it messes the EPG up something fierce.

My only solution is relatively simple - Only take Rockford stations off the Rockford antenna. Only take Madison stations off the Madison antenna. Disable all the ones on my cable provider for Madison and Rockford, since my cable company compresses the heck out of them, despite all claims to the contrary, and save it for the HBO, Discovery, A&E, TLC and those sorts of cable HD's and digital tiers.

It took me a while to puzzle this one out, but then I'm not that smart and it's probably a sticky in here anyway.

In short, the EPG service is not consistent and the cable company would ball it up on top of it. My only clue was that it was the primaries getting knocked out of the EPG, rarely was it the secondaries. And, occasionally, I saw a 17-2 WTVODT and a 17-2 WTVO-DT but they did not seem to tune correctly.

If they are indeed all the same station, you can remap them to the same station id (choose the one that usually has the best guide info, if it differs), using the Remap -> Remap Station. (Choose the wrenches option in the bottom right corner of the remap screen to change sorting to Channel Name to make it easier). This will cause them all to be the same entry in the program guide, and which tuner will be determined by encoder merit.

Then, make sure your OTA tuners have higher merit than your cable tuners, and it will still 'save the cable ones' for the cable only channels, unless there is a desperate need to use them to get local feeds. (to me, even a bit recompressed is better than missing it altogether.

[Savage1701]

That's a great idea. I suspected their must be a work-around but I never would have got that on my own. Thanks.