AC3Filter settings to get voice?

[Brent94Z]

Hey Guys!

This got a little long so the Cliff's Notes version is: My center channel is working but no VOICES are being played. Please Help! LOL!

Been using SageTV for a while via RCA left and right patch cords to my TV and just finally got around to hooking up the HTPC to my Pioneer SC-07 via a TOSLINK cable. The sound card in the computer is a Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS. WOW, what a difference!!!

But, I'm having some issues that, after some searching, others on here have had as well but I can't seem to get the problem resolved.

The problem is that on many movies there are NO voices? Some are very low but the one I'm trying to play right now (Fighting) is like my movie has been coverted to some type of karaoke movie because all I see are lips moving! The center channel is working during this time because if I get close enough to the center channel I can hear background sounds but not the voices.

I've got a 7.1 setup and have tried everything I can think of to get this working and have changed settings in the Sound Blaster software and AC3Filter configuration program and every setting and sound option on my Pioneer receiver. No joy

Here is what is weird... I play a DVD movie in a SageTV window and have the AC3Filter config window open next to it. On any AC3Filter output setting that shows an output on the center channel (with the level bars in the AC3Filter main screen like for 3/2+SW 5.1) I don't get the voices. There are some scenes with just people talking where if only the center channel is showing an output I have no sound! But, if I select an output that shows NO center channel output then I actually get the voices out of my center speaker??? I'm presuming my receiver is taking the signal and making this happen.

Any idea what I'm doing wrong? I don't see an option in AC3Filter for 7.1 and but would like to get it to where if it shows an output on the center channel that I can hear the voices. I have tried what was suggested in other threads here by enabling DRC and maxing it out as well as selecting the voice output to max but that's not working. I don't think that's it anyway because even when the center channel green bar is peaking higher than any of the other bars there is very little coming out of my center speaker... and it's working because I hear some sound effects from here... just not the voices. Also, I think the "best" setting (maybe? LOL) in AC3Filter to get the most out of my audio is to use the "AS IS (no change)" setting. With this setting I get awesome surround sound effects from all channels except I have no voices!?!?

I don't think this is related but one thing I can't seem to figure out with the Sound Blaster software is that when I go into the Speaker settings (or THX setup which looks like the same settings) I do the channel test where the lady talks to you to indicate which speaker is which by speaking "Left Front", for example, and then highlighting that speaker, I only ever hear "Left Front" and "Right Front" as she cycles through the 8 speakers no matter what I select (like 5.1 or 6.1 or 7.1).

Any suggestions would be very much appreciated! The surround sound effects are incredible but not hearing the people talk takes a bit away from the movie watching experience. Hahaha

[Vaskill]

Originally Posted by Brent94Z

Hey Guys!

This got a little long so the Cliff's Notes version is: My center channel is working but no VOICES are being played. Please Help! LOL!

Been using SageTV for a while via RCA left and right patch cords to my TV and just finally got around to hooking up the HTPC to my Pioneer SC-07 via a TOSLINK cable. The sound card in the computer is a Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS. WOW, what a difference!!!

The basic Audigy 2 ZS does not have Toslink out, only SPDIF. Is there a different model you are using, or are you plugged into an onboard Toslink out (thus a different audio device)?

Originally Posted by Brent94Z

But, I'm having some issues that, after some searching, others on here have had as well but I can't seem to get the problem resolved.

The problem is that on many movies there are NO voices? Some are very low but the one I'm trying to play right now (Fighting) is like my movie has been coverted to some type of karaoke movie because all I see are lips moving! The center channel is working during this time because if I get close enough to the center channel I can hear background sounds but not the voices.

I've got a 7.1 setup and have tried everything I can think of to get this working and have changed settings in the Sound Blaster software and AC3Filter configuration program and every setting and sound option on my Pioneer receiver. No joy

What other symptoms/non-symptoms occur? Do you get all other channels when playing 5.1 (BTW, AC3Filter only handles 5.1 so your Pioneer receiver will have to "matrix" to the other two surround speakers, I would suggest for your issue, to test 5.1 only)? Are the left and right playing correctly?

Originally Posted by Brent94Z

Here is what is weird... I play a DVD movie in a SageTV window and have the AC3Filter config window open next to it. On any AC3Filter output setting that shows an output on the center channel (with the level bars in the AC3Filter main screen like for 3/2+SW 5.1) I don't get the voices. There are some scenes with just people talking where if only the center channel is showing an output I have no sound! But, if I select an output that shows NO center channel output then I actually get the voices out of my center speaker??? I'm presuming my receiver is taking the signal and making this happen.

Okay, there is a matrix setting in AC3Filter. It relates input to output channels in a simple table. Make sure that for each input (ie. centre), there is a number one (1) in the cell that intersects the corresponding output channel. This will give you a grid that will look like:

100000
010000
001000
000100
000010
000001

Originally Posted by Brent94Z

Any idea what I'm doing wrong? I don't see an option in AC3Filter for 7.1 and but would like to get it to where if it shows an output on the center channel that I can hear the voices. I have tried what was suggested in other threads here by enabling DRC and maxing it out as well as selecting the voice output to max but that's not working. I don't think that's it anyway because even when the center channel green bar is peaking higher than any of the other bars there is very little coming out of my center speaker... and it's working because I hear some sound effects from here... just not the voices. Also, I think the "best" setting (maybe? LOL) in AC3Filter to get the most out of my audio is to use the "AS IS (no change)" setting. With this setting I get awesome surround sound effects from all channels except I have no voices!?!?

There are other settings you should be aware of:

If your Pioneer receiver is capable of Dolby Digital (DD) 5.1/6.1 and DTS 5.1/6.1 decoding, I suggest you set up your AC3Filter to pass that through those codecs for optimum efficiency and quality.

Anything else, you will want to output in 5.1 using AC3Filter's DD encoding, otherwise, it will output in 2.0 channel LPCM via your Toslink connection. This might be what you are experiencing; also note that if you do not have pass through set for DD and DTS, and you don't have DD encoding enabled, all you will be outputting is the 2.0 channel LPCM via Toslink when using this filter (AC3Filter). Just in case you don't know, this filter will be for media playback only, and not for native OS sound, leading to your next point...

Originally Posted by Brent94Z

I don't think this is related but one thing I can't seem to figure out with the Sound Blaster software is that when I go into the Speaker settings (or THX setup which looks like the same settings) I do the channel test where the lady talks to you to indicate which speaker is which by speaking "Left Front", for example, and then highlighting that speaker, I only ever hear "Left Front" and "Right Front" as she cycles through the 8 speakers no matter what I select (like 5.1 or 6.1 or 7.1)...

This is absolutely related, depending on your settings in your AC3Filter. Your base operating system will be trying to output all sound as LPCM when using Toslink or SPDIF by default. If you do not have an audio card that can encode output to DD or DTS, or a piece of software to do that installed for your OS, you will never have more than 2.0 from the OS. This is why only the two channels work in the SB config test. The nice thing, is the SB drivers allow you to stream native DD/DTS without converting them to the native OS LPCM. These are settings in your Audigy control panel settings (as far as I remember). You must set this to passthrough DD and DTS to have AC3Filter properly send DD/DTS in 5.1/6.1 to your receiver AND pass AC3Filter encoded DD/DTS (if set to do so). This will let your receiver do the decoding of DD/DTS signals.

So to recap, but in order of preference:
1) Make sure your sound card is set to pass through DD/DTS
2) Make sure AC3Filter is set to pass through DD/DTS
3) Make sure AC3Filter Matrix is set properly
4) Make sure AC3Filter is not converting to LCPM and instead is encoding DD
5) Make sure you don't have an onboard sound card outputting to the receiver via Toslink

Hope this helps! Let us know how it works out.

[Brent94Z]

Thanks so much for the detailed reply, Vaskill. Very much appreciated!!!

I'm going to go try some of your suggestions now and will get back with you but to answer the one question, my soundcard is a Platinum edition. Sorry about that! This edition has the TOSLINK connections in the 5.25" adapter piece that goes into the drive bay.

Thanks!

Also, even in Passthrough (AS IS) mode, I'm definitely getting all the other channels as the surround sound effects are amazing. Just not getting the VOICE from the center channel.

[Brent94Z]

Originally Posted by Vaskill

What other symptoms/non-symptoms occur? Do you get all other channels when playing 5.1 (BTW, AC3Filter only handles 5.1 so your Pioneer receiver will have to "matrix" to the other two surround speakers, I would suggest for your issue, to test 5.1 only)? Are the left and right playing correctly?

Everything is working perfectly except that I'm not getting voices. I'm even getting the center channel but just the voices aren't being heard. I'm not overly familiar with exactly how high end audio stuff works but find it strange that I am getting sound out of all 8 speakers but just not getting the VOICES from the movies. In fact, on the "Fighting" DVD I've been testing with, the beginning of the movie has music playing and the guy signing during this music is playing loudly out of the center channel but when it fades out to where the guy starts talking, there is no talking from the main character! His lips are a moving but no sound is coming out the speakers. LOL! It's not the movie because if I switch it to where AC3Filter shows NO center output then the voices immediately can be heard.

So, in short, the only problem I appear to be having is no voices. Center channel works... just no voices.

Originally Posted by Vaskill

Okay, there is a matrix setting in AC3Filter. It relates input to output channels in a simple table. Make sure that for each input (ie. centre), there is a number one (1) in the cell that intersects the corresponding output channel. This will give you a grid that will look like:

100000
010000
001000
000100
000010
000001

My grid looks exactly like that.

Originally Posted by Vaskill

There are other settings you should be aware of:

If your Pioneer receiver is capable of Dolby Digital (DD) 5.1/6.1 and DTS 5.1/6.1 decoding, I suggest you set up your AC3Filter to pass that through those codecs for optimum efficiency and quality.

Yep, it is a higher end Pioneer. When set to AS IS, the surround sound is incredible so I know it is working. Just not picking up the voices. Could this be with my Pioneer? I don't see how but???

Originally Posted by Vaskill

Anything else, you will want to output in 5.1 using AC3Filter's DD encoding, otherwise, it will output in 2.0 channel LPCM via your Toslink connection. This might be what you are experiencing; also note that if you do not have pass through set for DD and DTS, and you don't have DD encoding enabled, all you will be outputting is the 2.0 channel LPCM via Toslink when using this filter (AC3Filter). Just in case you don't know, this filter will be for media playback only, and not for native OS sound, leading to your next point...

Well, I'm definitely not getting just 2.0 channel output. The sound coming from the fronts, rears, sides is hugely different so I'm certain that I'm getting all 7.1 channels. I've had surround sound setups for a long time but the sound sound effects I'm getting out of my computer and SageTV is better than the surround sound effects I get from even playing a DVD from my Blu-Ray player! Not sure if that is possible but maybe I have a cheap Blu-Ray that isn't doing as good of job as my HTPC. Either way, most definitely getting more than 2 channels going to my Pioneer receiver.

Originally Posted by Vaskill

This is absolutely related, depending on your settings in your AC3Filter. Your base operating system will be trying to output all sound as LPCM when using Toslink or SPDIF by default. If you do not have an audio card that can encode output to DD or DTS, or a piece of software to do that installed for your OS, you will never have more than 2.0 from the OS. This is why only the two channels work in the SB config test.

Even though in my SB config test I'm only able to hear the front channels, I'm still getting incredible surround sound as a final result so something isn't jiving here. If the SB config test was the true end result then I don't see how I'd be getting a different stream out of all 8 speakers? Might not be getting a "different" stream from the side speakers but definitely getting sound from them.

Originally Posted by Vaskill

The nice thing, is the SB drivers allow you to stream native DD/DTS without converting them to the native OS LPCM. These are settings in your Audigy control panel settings (as far as I remember). You must set this to passthrough DD and DTS to have AC3Filter properly send DD/DTS in 5.1/6.1 to your receiver AND pass AC3Filter encoded DD/DTS (if set to do so). This will let your receiver do the decoding of DD/DTS signals.

The nice thing about the Sound Blaster and AC3Filter is as I'm making changes I can hear the differences while the movie is playing. I did find the "pass through" setting you were talking about in the AudioHQ area under the decoder tab and changed it to SPDIF passthrough. I heard no changes.

Originally Posted by Vaskill

So to recap, but in order of preference:
1) Make sure your sound card is set to pass through DD/DTS
2) Make sure AC3Filter is set to pass through DD/DTS
3) Make sure AC3Filter Matrix is set properly
4) Make sure AC3Filter is not converting to LCPM and instead is encoding DD
5) Make sure you don't have an onboard sound card outputting to the receiver via Toslink

Hope this helps! Let us know how it works out.

1) It wasn't but it is now. No change as far as hearing the voices.
2) Did that with no change. Actually, I had it on 4.1 or something before (so I could hear them talk when I watched a movie. LOL!) and when setting this to AS IS, the voices went away.
3) Matrix looks good.
4) Which setting is this? I'm pretty sure I have this correct but sure which exact setting you are talking about. But, everything related to PCM I have checked and unchecked with no differences. LOL
5) Onboard sound card is disabled in the BIOS.

Also, I'm pretty sure this is not a Sage issue. I tried VLC Player and same results as within Sage.

I find it odd that my center channel is working fine but I'm just not able to get the voices. Driving me nuts!!! Hahaha

Any other ideas?

[Fuzzy]

To me it still sounds like you are output stereo sound to your receiver. What is the receiver saying it is receiving? I know you say it's working, and that you are gettnig all channels, but it seems more like you are hearing what the Receiver (Dolby Pro Logic II) is doing with the stereo sound to create a surround mode. however, since it is only receiving the left and right channels, and NOT the center, it isn't receiving the voice (which is encoded in the center channel).

In AC3Filter, you should be able to see the volume bars for each speaker (for input AND for output). Are you showing data for the center chanel on both IN and OUT?). Also, what info is being shown for input and output in the AC3Filter's status box?

[Brent94Z]

On a side note, I do have the latest version of AC3Filter and after installing it, I copied the two files needed into the Sage folder.

Not sure if this matters or not but when I crank up the "Voices" slider bar in AC3Filter, the only thing that happens is it bounces in the red and automatically reduces the gain which makes for a varying level coming out of some of the other channels... but doesn't work to make it so I can even hear the voices.

I'm also not sure if I was clear that it's not that I'm having an issue with low center output or voices not quite loud enough (like what I found in some searches) but rather in the few movies I've tried to watch I'm not getting ANY voices most of the time. It's like walking around hearing all the cars honking and birds chriping and explosions but can't hear any talking. Wish I could take this "feature" out of my HTPC and apply it to my ex.

[Brent94Z]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

To me it still sounds like you are output stereo sound to your receiver. What is the receiver saying it is receiving? I know you say it's working, and that you are gettnig all channels, but it seems more like you are hearing what the Receiver (Dolby Pro Logic II) is doing with the stereo sound to create a surround mode. however, since it is only receiving the left and right channels, and NOT the center, it isn't receiving the voice (which is encoded in the center channel).

In AC3Filter, you should be able to see the volume bars for each speaker (for input AND for output). Are you showing data for the center chanel on both IN and OUT?). Also, what info is being shown for input and output in the AC3Filter's status box?

The receiver shows PCM (auto digital) and if I go through some of the settings it looks like PCM 96.

But, I AM getting the center channel... just not the voices from the people talking. Also, I've heard fake/simulated surround sound before and this is definitely not simulated surround sound that I'm getting.

In AC3Filter I see all the green bars bouncing for all channels in both the in and out windows. So, yes, getting data for sure on the output. I only get the voices when the center channel shows NO output and then I get the voices out of the center channel. LOL! But, this is in some lesser state and I'm losing out on a lot of the surround sound effects I'd have with 7.1 or even 5.1.

Something else... I went through all the sound modes on my receiver and nothing fixes the lack of voices. Even on the most basic settings (not full THX for example) I get no voices. Leads me to think it is an issue with the HTPC and not the receiver.

[Vaskill]

Originally Posted by Brent94Z

The receiver shows PCM (auto digital) and if I go through some of the settings it looks like PCM 96.

But, I AM getting the center channel... just not the voices from the people talking. Also, I've heard fake/simulated surround sound before and this is definitely not simulated surround sound that I'm getting.

In AC3Filter I see all the green bars bouncing for all channels in both the in and out windows. So, yes, getting data for sure on the output. I only get the voices when the center channel shows NO output and then I get the voices out of the center channel. LOL! But, this is in some lesser state and I'm losing out on a lot of the surround sound effects I'd have with 7.1 or even 5.1.

Something else... I went through all the sound modes on my receiver and nothing fixes the lack of voices. Even on the most basic settings (not full THX for example) I get no voices. Leads me to think it is an issue with the HTPC and not the receiver.

Okay, we are getting somewhere! Good call Fuzzy! Ok, so do you have your HTPC connected to your receiver via HDMI for video?

Also, just for reference, here are the settings I use with AC3Filter with SPDIF/Toslink.

[Brent94Z]

Originally Posted by Vaskill

Ok, so do you have your HTPC connected to your receiver via HDMI for video?

Yes and no.

Yes because it is physically connected but not working correctly. I have only a DVI output so bought a DVI-HDMI converter but I can't get it to work at true 1080P so use the VGA output going directly to the TV and the TOSLINK going to the Pioneer for the sound. (The DVI-HDMI problems I try getting resolved in another thread. LOL)

I did have the HDMI turned OFF for the DVR (source my TOSLINK cable is connected to) but just to make sure I unplugged it! No change.

Originally Posted by Vaskill

Also, just for reference, here are the settings I use with AC3Filter with SPDIF/Toslink.

Thanks! I'll check those out! Have to go to work soon but will let you know if I find anything in there.

Thanks guys for the help!

[Vaskill]

Originally Posted by Brent94Z

Yes and no.

Yes because it is physically connected but not working correctly. I have only a DVI output so bought a DVI-HDMI converter but I can't get it to work at true 1080P so use the VGA output going directly to the TV and the TOSLINK going to the Pioneer for the sound. (The DVI-HDMI problems I try getting resolved in another thread. LOL)

I did have the HDMI turned OFF for the DVR (source my TOSLINK cable is connected to) but just to make sure I unplugged it! No change.



Thanks! I'll check those out! Have to go to work soon but will let you know if I find anything in there.

Thanks guys for the help!

Ok, if it is still displaying "PCM" when you have the DVI/HDMI cable disconnected it is then definitely sending LPCM (PCM) via Toslink. SPDIF/Toslink can only send 2 channel PCM. This means it is NOT passing DD/DTS through properly. Definitely your HTPC. Likely a setting in AC3Filter or for your Audigy / os settings.

[Brent94Z]

Well, the settings you posted really helped and may even make me look a bit stupid

I did not have "Use SPDIF" checked. As soon as I checked that, I got the voices but all the input/output indications went away. Which I think is normal. I think you may have mentioned this earlier but I misunderstood and thought the "AS IS" setting is what you were talking about.

I think I did mess with this setting but probably when there were no voices taking place and unchecked it again when the in/out bars went away thinking I *wanted* this and that without the in/out indictions it wasn't working correctly. Still though, shouldn' tit work with this unchecked? Or, is there a bug and if SPDIF is unchecked I shouldn't be getting ANY sound (even though I'm getting everything but the voices!). I should have known better because I know that my digital output is SPDIF but must have overlooked it because I was getting sound with it unchecked.

But, how in the world could that checkbox affect ONLY the voices??? At first it seemed like unchecking this made it so my surround sound effects weren't as crisp/clear but I think that was because I had the auto gain enabled and without the center channel going out, it makes the surround sound effects louder. I unchecked the auto gain stuff and it seems to not make a difference now with the surround sound

Still curious though, if you think about it, do your voices go away completely when this setting is not checked? That just seems weird to me. You'd think that with a label like that it would either work or not work... not just take out the voices! hahhaa

Also, some other differences... I have selected the PCM 32 bit where as you have PCM 16 bit. Why aren't you at the 32 bit setting? And, somehow, you don't have any audio decoder selected... I have to have either one or the other and can't make nothing selected like you have.

I'm going to do some more playing around. Can anybody explain why it works like it does with this setting and why it just eliminates the voices?

Thanks much for all the help! Will post back when I get some free time again and let you know if I find out anything else. Thanks!

[Brent94Z]

Originally Posted by Vaskill

Ok, if it is still displaying "PCM" when you have the DVI/HDMI cable disconnected it is then definitely sending LPCM (PCM) via Toslink. SPDIF/Toslink can only send 2 channel PCM. This means it is NOT passing DD/DTS through properly. Definitely your HTPC. Likely a setting in AC3Filter or for your Audigy / os settings.

Thanks! I'll take a look at this too but real quick... with the "Use SPDIF" checked the PCM goes away and the unit lights up the speakers which are being used (all but the side ones since the movie is 5.1 I'm thinking). Before when the PCM was lit, there were NO speaker indicators lit.

I'm wondering if the way it is supposed to work is with this unchecked there should be NO sound passed? Confusing when it passes everything but the voices. LOL

[Fuzzy]

As was already mentioned to you, that setting didn't affect JUST THE VOICES. What it did is send the 6 channel surround sound to the Sound Blaster. The Sound Blaster then sends that sound out via both the analog conenctions, AND the digital conenctions. The TOSLINK on the expansion drive will output the left and right front speakers in Stereo PCM. The only way for it to output anything different is to send it encoded AC3 or DTS. You receiver was getting two channel PCM over the optical input, and so it treated it as a stereo input. It WAS simulating everything that you heard fron the center, surround and sub channels. Don't underestimate the improvements that have been made in AVR DSPs in the last 10 years. Modern DSPs don't have all the extra fake-reverb and such that the old 'surround' modes did.

Now, it appears you've gotten AC3Filter outputing in AC3 (in fact, the fact that you have no activity on the volume indicators shows that you are in Passthrough mode. The DD or DTS stream is basically being passed straight through AC3Filter to the digital output on the card un touched (never even gets decoded, which is why there are no volume levels). You can choose to leave it as such, or you can choose to have AC3Filter decode teh sound, do it's processing (such as Dynamic Volume Levelling), and then re-encode into AC3 again to get it to the receiver. You can also, if you choose, use 4 mini-plug to RCA cables and connect analog sound to the multi-channel input on the Pioneer, instead of using the TOSLINK. This may actually, believe it or not, give you better quality sound.

Of course, if you get your HDMI-Audio issues sorted, then that will be your best option, and you can ditch the sound card altogether.

NOTE: Currently, I have my system set up via TOSLINK, because I don't have an HDMI receiver... Though I actually use AC3Filter to decode the sound, and output it as PCM Float. I then have it rendered to the sound card by ReClock, which accepts the PCM Float, and encodes it BACK to AC3 to transmit out the sound card. The only reason I do this is because the PC is in another room, and the TOSLINK is actually coming from a cheap USB Audio adapter (Turtle Beach Audio Advantage Micro). If I had the PC there by the TV, I'd probably have a decent sound card (The Audigy 2 you've got is decent enough for most) and use the multi-channel analog conenctions.

[Vaskill]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

As was already mentioned to you, that setting didn't affect JUST THE VOICES. What it did is send the 6 channel surround sound to the Sound Blaster. The Sound Blaster then sends that sound out via both the analog conenctions, AND the digital conenctions. The TOSLINK on the expansion drive will output the left and right front speakers in Stereo PCM. The only way for it to output anything different is to send it encoded AC3 or DTS. You receiver was getting two channel PCM over the optical input, and so it treated it as a stereo input. It WAS simulating everything that you heard fron the center, surround and sub channels. Don't underestimate the improvements that have been made in AVR DSPs in the last 10 years. Modern DSPs don't have all the extra fake-reverb and such that the old 'surround' modes did.

Now, it appears you've gotten AC3Filter outputing in AC3 (in fact, the fact that you have no activity on the volume indicators shows that you are in Passthrough mode. The DD or DTS stream is basically being passed straight through AC3Filter to the digital output on the card un touched (never even gets decoded, which is why there are no volume levels). You can choose to leave it as such, or you can choose to have AC3Filter decode teh sound, do it's processing (such as Dynamic Volume Levelling), and then re-encode into AC3 again to get it to the receiver. You can also, if you choose, use 4 mini-plug to RCA cables and connect analog sound to the multi-channel input on the Pioneer, instead of using the TOSLINK. This may actually, believe it or not, give you better quality sound.

Of course, if you get your HDMI-Audio issues sorted, then that will be your best option, and you can ditch the sound card altogether.

NOTE: Currently, I have my system set up via TOSLINK, because I don't have an HDMI receiver... Though I actually use AC3Filter to decode the sound, and output it as PCM Float. I then have it rendered to the sound card by ReClock, which accepts the PCM Float, and encodes it BACK to AC3 to transmit out the sound card. The only reason I do this is because the PC is in another room, and the TOSLINK is actually coming from a cheap USB Audio adapter (Turtle Beach Audio Advantage Micro). If I had the PC there by the TV, I'd probably have a decent sound card (The Audigy 2 you've got is decent enough for most) and use the multi-channel analog conenctions.

To add to Fuzzy's explanation:

The Audigy only does 5.1 output over analogue, so you might get a bit better quality, but I would prefer your (very nice BTW) receiver to decode your DD/DTS stream, which would allow 1) native hardware decoding by your receiver, which will be equivalent to or better than any codec or sound card hardware, 2) would allow native decoding of DD-EX 6.1 and DTS-ES 6.1 decoding which would better utilize your 7.1 setup. You will never get better sound out of your DD/DTS streams by decoding and re-encoding before they get to your receiver.

Regardless, you can use almost any input on your receiver and extend the surround sound to your left and right surround speakers that you said were quite during 5.1 playback. Your receiver is probably on "Standard" mode and you can change it via the "Surround" mode with the SC-07.

All this being said, there is a another scenario: If you have an ATI video card (4000 or 5000 series) you can output 24bit/192khz 7.1 to your receiver. This will give you the purest output, including DD True-HD (using the ffdshow instead of AC3Filter); and it will output all audio produced by your computer, in its 2.1/4.1/5.1/7.1/etc format with out re-encoding it to DD/DTS. The only thing better would be to bitstream DD True-HD/DTS-MA, but for that, you need new hardware and software

Happy HTPC viewing

[Brent94Z]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

As was already mentioned to you, that setting didn't affect JUST THE VOICES. What it did is send the 6 channel surround sound to the Sound Blaster. The Sound Blaster then sends that sound out via both the analog conenctions, AND the digital conenctions. The TOSLINK on the expansion drive will output the left and right front speakers in Stereo PCM. The only way for it to output anything different is to send it encoded AC3 or DTS. You receiver was getting two channel PCM over the optical input, and so it treated it as a stereo input. It WAS simulating everything that you heard fron the center, surround and sub channels. Don't underestimate the improvements that have been made in AVR DSPs in the last 10 years. Modern DSPs don't have all the extra fake-reverb and such that the old 'surround' modes did.

I very much do appreciate the education you guys are giving me here. I would have bet a decent amount of money that what I was hearing was true surround sound. My Pioneer SC-07 must be pretty damn incredible to fake the surround as good as it was as I was hearing definitely different sounds from the different speakers. It was completely pulling out descrete sounds like a car horn or traffic whizzing by and putting it only to the rears. I would never have thought that my receiver could have "faked" it as well as it was that is for sure!

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Now, it appears you've gotten AC3Filter outputing in AC3 (in fact, the fact that you have no activity on the volume indicators shows that you are in Passthrough mode.

Yep. I even noticed too that when nothing is playing the "Use SPDIF" setting is simply that but when I am playing a movie it reads "Use SPDIF (passthrough)".

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

The DD or DTS stream is basically being passed straight through AC3Filter to the digital output on the card un touched (never even gets decoded, which is why there are no volume levels). You can choose to leave it as such, or you can choose to have AC3Filter decode teh sound, do it's processing (such as Dynamic Volume Levelling), and then re-encode into AC3 again to get it to the receiver.

Then actually, if the "Use SPDIF" is left unchecked and NOT in passthrough, it should still work... being modified by the AC3Filter software, correct? Still not clear as to why things aren't working when not in the passthrough mode. Even though I'm using the TOSLINK connection this should still work, right?

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

You can also, if you choose, use 4 mini-plug to RCA cables and connect analog sound to the multi-channel input on the Pioneer, instead of using the TOSLINK. This may actually, believe it or not, give you better quality sound.

I'm going to try this. This will eliminate the TOSLINK cable sticking out the front of my HTPC. I don't know if I have 4 of those type cables laying around but if I do I'll try it in the next few days and report back what happens

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Of course, if you get your HDMI-Audio issues sorted, then that will be your best option, and you can ditch the sound card altogether.

Actually, it was an HDMI video issue. My video card doesn't have HDMI and just has S-Video connection, standard monitor connection, and an HDMI connection. When using the DVI-HDMI converter (has TOSLINK input for audio) I couldn't get the video card to recognize the TV as being a 1080P TV. I either had just the middle portion of the screen visible or it was upcoverting I think some sort of 1200x? resolution to 1080P and it was very poor quality. Will have to play with that a bit more but with the video card I have, I won't be able to get rid of the ole sound card just yet

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

NOTE: Currently, I have my system set up via TOSLINK, because I don't have an HDMI receiver... Though I actually use AC3Filter to decode the sound, and output it as PCM Float. I then have it rendered to the sound card by ReClock, which accepts the PCM Float, and encodes it BACK to AC3 to transmit out the sound card. The only reason I do this is because the PC is in another room, and the TOSLINK is actually coming from a cheap USB Audio adapter (Turtle Beach Audio Advantage Micro). If I had the PC there by the TV, I'd probably have a decent sound card (The Audigy 2 you've got is decent enough for most) and use the multi-channel analog conenctions.

I'll have to do some reading on what all that means (LOL!) but my HTPC is close enough to the TV that I'll be able to give that a shot with the analog connections. But, it does sound like you have the "Use SPDIF" unchecked and are using a TOSLINK cable and have it working... but with a few extra processes in the middle.

At work now so can't try anything else right now. Bummer! Haha

Thanks!

[Brent94Z]

Originally Posted by Vaskill

To add to Fuzzy's explanation:

The Audigy only does 5.1 output over analogue, so you might get a bit better quality, but I would prefer your (very nice BTW) receiver to decode your DD/DTS stream, which would allow 1) native hardware decoding by your receiver, which will be equivalent to or better than any codec or sound card hardware, 2) would allow native decoding of DD-EX 6.1 and DTS-ES 6.1 decoding which would better utilize your 7.1 setup. You will never get better sound out of your DD/DTS streams by decoding and re-encoding before they get to your receiver.

Gotcha! Definitely going to give the analog cables a shot. Maybe in my stash of stuff I can find the right cables to try this in the morning when I get off

Originally Posted by Vaskill

Regardless, you can use almost any input on your receiver and extend the surround sound to your left and right surround speakers that you said were quite during 5.1 playback. Your receiver is probably on "Standard" mode and you can change it via the "Surround" mode with the SC-07.

I only meant "quiet" in that when the center channel had no voices coming out of it and I had it set to auto leveling, it made ALL the other speakers a little louder. When I turn off the auto leveling in AC3Filter I can't tell the difference when I check/uncheck the "Use SPDIF" setting... except that I can hear people talk

Originally Posted by Vaskill

All this being said, there is a another scenario: If you have an ATI video card (4000 or 5000 series) you can output 24bit/192khz 7.1 to your receiver. This will give you the purest output, including DD True-HD (using the ffdshow instead of AC3Filter); and it will output all audio produced by your computer, in its 2.1/4.1/5.1/7.1/etc format with out re-encoding it to DD/DTS.

Off to check some prices. LOL! I have an older computer with an AGP video card so this may not be an option without me having to change out a lot of hardware.

Originally Posted by Vaskill

The only thing better would be to bitstream DD True-HD/DTS-MA, but for that, you need new hardware and software

Happy HTPC viewing

No doubt and thank you very much! I can't believe I've been using SageTV as long as I have and have only had it outputting audio to the TV via patch cords! I've had the SC-07 for about a year and am ashamed it has taken me this long to get this hooked up. Of course, I was nearly "forced" to because the motherboard fried on my HTPC and after changing that out I decided I'd just "do it right" when I put it all back together. So, the motherboard frying actually is turning out to be a "good thing". LOL

Thanks again guys!

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Vaskill

The Audigy only does 5.1 output over analogue

That's not entirely correct. The Audigy (and even teh older Live cards) do have digital outputs for all speakers. however, instead of being encoded and squeezed into a single SPDIF line, they are kept discrete, using in the case of the Audigy2 card, uses 4 stereo 16-bit/48kHz PCM SPDIF outputs to carry the 8 channels. Unfortunately, there are little to no mainstream receivers that can receive these separate signals, and it's relegated pretty much to Creative branded (and some other brands) higher end computer speaker systems. With HDMI Audio more common on computers, that has now become the best way of connecting to a receiver, but prior to that, you could get VERY good sound with some high quality DAC's off these stereo SPDIF lines running into some good power amps.

[Vaskill]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

That's not entirely correct. The Audigy (and even teh older Live cards) do have digital outputs for all speakers. however, instead of being encoded and squeezed into a single SPDIF line, they are kept discrete, using in the case of the Audigy2 card, uses 4 stereo 16-bit/48kHz PCM SPDIF outputs to carry the 8 channels. Unfortunately, there are little to no mainstream receivers that can receive these separate signals, and it's relegated pretty much to Creative branded (and some other brands) higher end computer speaker systems. With HDMI Audio more common on computers, that has now become the best way of connecting to a receiver, but prior to that, you could get VERY good sound with some high quality DAC's off these stereo SPDIF lines running into some good power amps.

lol... well, it seems we are both sorta right

You are correct that the Audigy 2 ZS can handle 7.1 analogue. (it requires a proprietary connector for the rear channels)

I have had my 2 ZS since it hit the market, but I bought it for the true digital output to use with my DT3500 speakers (one of the two known products that could use this fantastic feature).

I made a very bad assumption that you have only corrected now: the digital output only supports 5.1; thus I thought the card in its whole only supported 5.1 instead of 7.1 for all these years

cheers...

[Brent94Z]

Just a little update...

After checking the "Use SPDIF (passthrough)" option, the Sound Blaster lady still only speaks my two front channels. BUT, I found some plugs in the garage that allowed me to use the analog out connections on the soundcard and when using these, she speaks the rear channels too. The only problem is that I have only the proper 2 conductor plugs. Two of the three 3.5mm jacks on the sound card require 3 conductor plugs to get the full 7.1. I found the Sound Blaster cable which does all this for $18 something shipped so just bought it rather than trying to find the correct individual cables and trying to figure all that out too. Will post back with the results when I get the cable in.

Thanks!

[Fuzzy]

Well, getting the speaker test to work isn't THAT important for media playback. You can still get the media's multichannel via the AC3 in the meantime. I merely recommended the analog conenctions because they will then get full multi-channel sound from all programs (that support multichannel), and not just through AC3.