Fios, MOCA & extenders/clients

[drewg]

Hi,

We're considering re-locating to a different city where Fios is available ()

I've been reading about Fios, and I'm a little bit confused about how it uses MOCA. Specifically, it appears that the Fios provided router uses some form of MOCA to talk to the ONT gateway (WAN), and it uses MOCA to talk to the STBs, and it can also use MOCA to talk to devices inside your house (LAN). Does it use different frequencies??

What I really want to know is if it is possible to have a SageTV server connected to one of the wired ethernet ports on the Fios router & an extender in another room connected via a coax cable and a MOCA bridge? Is anybody running a setup like this? It would be nice to avoid running cat5 like I did in my current house.

Last, how fugly are Fios installs when you want/need a cable outlet in a new room? Is it a typical "Gitr-done" type cable / sat installer where they'll just drape wires over the outside of your house, and punch through walls? Or will they do a quality job and run the new cable in the basement / crawl and fish it up through the wall?

Thanks,

Drew

[JerryB]

Originally Posted by drewg

Hi,
I've been reading about Fios, and I'm a little bit confused about how it uses MOCA. Specifically, it appears that the Fios provided router uses some form of MOCA to talk to the ONT gateway (WAN), and it uses MOCA to talk to the STBs, and it can also use MOCA to talk to devices inside your house (LAN). Does it use different frequencies??

What I really want to know is if it is possible to have a SageTV server connected to one of the wired ethernet ports on the Fios router & an extender in another room connected via a coax cable and a MOCA bridge? Is anybody running a setup like this? It would be nice to avoid running cat5 like I did in my current house.

Last, how fugly are Fios installs when you want/need a cable outlet in a new room? Is it a typical "Gitr-done" type cable / sat installer where they'll just drape wires over the outside of your house, and punch through walls? Or will they do a quality job and run the new cable in the basement / crawl and fish it up through the wall?

I can't answer your first question. I'm not sure what signals are available on the MOCA connection to the STBs. That's something you should probably ask FIOS tech support about. I doubt even the general customer service reps or installers would know the answer to that one. But what I would recommend is that you don't have them hook up the ONT to the Router using MOCA since this limits you to the FIOS router. As someone who has had the power supply to the FIOS router go bad and had to wait 4 days to receive shipment on a replacement, it's much better if you have the installer run Cat 5 from the ONT to the router. That way, you can temporarily swap in another router if the FIOS router goes down, which is what FIOS tech support recommended I do when the power supply to my router failed.

With respect to the installation, I'm sure that varies depending upon the area of the country and the specific installer that you get. In my case, the installer wanted to take the easiest option and run the cable on the outside of the house and then punch holes through the walls to run it into the various rooms but when I objected and showed him how he could get the cable from the ONT into the attic and from there into the various rooms, he relented and ran the cable the way I wanted.

[drewg]

Originally Posted by JerryB

it's much better if you have the installer run Cat 5 from the ONT to the router. That way, you can temporarily swap in another router if the FIOS router goes down

That is good advice, thanks!

Drew

[JerryB]

I just want to make sure you're aware that you need the FIOS router for normal operation since special Cable/TV functions (eg VOD and I believe the channel guide) come in on the internet circuit and then travel via the MOCA output connection on the router to the STB's. If you need to temporarily replace the router in an emergency, you lose these functions but at least you can restore normal internet connectivity. Normal TV programming comes through a Coax cable out of the ONT, not the router, so you don't lose this if you need to temporarily replace the FIOS router.

Basically my setup is:

ONT (internet terminal) -> Cat 5 to Router input -> Cat 5 out of router to gigabyte switch and then home network and Coax out of router to STB circuit.

ONT (cable/TV terminal) -> Coax to a splitter -> Individual Coax cables to each STB and router (the router cable is the output cable to STB circuit mentioned above).

ONT (phone terminal) -> standard telephone cable to wall jacks.

[mayamaniac]

I ran the Cat5 to the ONT myself, and then called in to have them switch from Coax to Ethernet. One of the problems I have with the verizon router (Westell) was that it's wireless is G speed only, no N draft. I'm not sure if they have N draft now, last year they didn't.

It's a bit tricky to make your router works with the verizon router because you still need the verizon router's moca/coaxial ports to connect to the STBs/DVRs. I did it once and haven't had to do it again, so I don't remember what I did exactly. But it all works out as SageTV works great with FIOS. I have a HD-PVR and one STB (Motorola QIP-7000) connect via firewire to the server for channel changing. The HDHR also works great with Fios.

As for installer, they just subcontract installers like most other companies. The ONT also has a battery pack that is installed inside the house near a power outlet, so plan out where you want to place that.

[bcjenkins]

I had FiOS when I lived in Virginia. You do not need to use their router at all even with cable boxes. You can use a MoCA adapter to connect the two topologies.

B

[d2tw4all]

You can also stuff their crappy router behind your own, by connecting the WAN port of their router to one of the LAN ports on your own router, assuming you have ethernet from the ONT. I've done this at 2 different houses with no issue. Also FioS works great with an HDHR as well as HDPVR (my HDPVR is actually connected to their DVR which I'm just using as a STB, I'd have to pay for a STB but they gave me a DVR free for the first year so whatever, seems to work just fine.

Tom

[bcjenkins]

Originally Posted by d2tw4all

You can also stuff their crappy router behind your own, by connecting the WAN port of their router to one of the LAN ports on your own router, assuming you have ethernet from the ONT. I've done this at 2 different houses with no issue. Also FioS works great with an HDHR as well as HDPVR (my HDPVR is actually connected to their DVR which I'm just using as a STB, I'd have to pay for a STB but they gave me a DVR free for the first year so whatever, seems to work just fine.

Tom

Doing this creates a double NAT and maybe IP routing issues depending on the IP address/subnet settings. The MoCA bridge is the simpler method and the install techs should have one on the truck

B

[drewg]

So stupid, general question: Is STB Moca network provisioned in the NAT "LAN" private IP address space (192.168.x.x) and bridged to the ethernet ports? Eg, a diagram would be

WAN --- <NAT BOX> --- ethernet LAN (192.168.1.x)
                  \--- MOCA LAN    (192.168.1.x)

I've read I can pick up extra MOCA bridges (nim100?) on ebay / etc. Is there any "pairing" required, or is it plug and play?

Thanks,

Drew

[bcjenkins]

Your media can be mixed. The coax and twisted pair is bridged by the MoCA adapter and they use the same address space IIRC.

B

PS - You can buy a NIM100 or get one for free from VZ. The installers typically have one on the truck. Although I don't know if that is a guarantee any longer.

[ericscottf]

I ditched their router altogether, no moca in my house at all.
the only downside is the cable boxes don't know what they're viewing (no guide data), but since i'm using sage, it doesn't matter.

that router was awful. Actiontec something or other. Truly dreadful.

Oh, the other downside is whenever i call to report an outage (once or twice a year), since i'm usually one of the first to call it in, they think it's my hardware and refuse to do anything before i put their router back in.
then, when their router is back in and things still don't work, they tell me to plug my pc directly into the outside line, bypassing all firewalls, etc. that's where i put my foot down and wait for them to get other complaints in about the neighborhood being down.

[mrdees960]

I've read I can pick up extra MOCA bridges (nim100?) on ebay / etc. Is there any "pairing" required, or is it plug and play?

it's not really plug and play... there is could be some configuration to be done based on what type of moca bridges you're using and what moca standard version they adhere to. Nim's seem to be kind of spendy. i would just use actiontec's from ebay, and just configure them as moca bridges only, since they're cheaper and more readily available.

[FlyingDoc]

I am also moving to somewhere with fios ... does anyone know if their STBs have firewire out and if so do they 5C some or all of the channels?

Thanks

[JerryB]

The high-definition STB's have firewire and SD STB's do not. At least that was the case when I got FIOS service.

As of a year ago, 5C blocked recording of premium but not local/basic channels. I don't think that's changed but I haven't checked 5C status lately since I now use an HDHR for the unrestricted local/basic channels and the STB only for restricted/encrypted channels. In this setup, the firewire port has been delegated to channel changing only.

[FlyingDoc]

Thanks Jerry Thats helpful. I only use "extended basic " channels on my current provider so i am hoping i will get what i need in the clear.

I think that is alli needed to make my final decision. If firewire fails i'll just fall back to using HDHRs

[d2tw4all]

Originally Posted by bcjenkins

Doing this creates a double NAT and maybe IP routing issues depending on the IP address/subnet settings. The MoCA bridge is the simpler method and the install techs should have one on the truck

B

No routing issues as long as your router has a different IP scheme than theirs which is easy enough to do. Double NAT is a non issue since the FioS boxes are the only things behind the 2nd router and just need internet access for guide data which passes just fine through the double NAT. My installer barely knew how to hook things up when he came, I think if I asked for a MoCA bridge his eyes would have crossed over and he'd have passed out. I'd actually rather isolate the FioS gear from my internal LAN anyway so stuffing their router behind mine has always been the way I prefer it.

[d2tw4all]

Originally Posted by FlyingDoc

Thanks Jerry Thats helpful. I only use "extended basic " channels on my current provider so i am hoping i will get what i need in the clear.

I think that is alli needed to make my final decision. If firewire fails i'll just fall back to using HDHRs

I ran with HDHR for a long time but really started to miss channels outside of the basic lineup. The HDPVR with their box alongside my HDHR has made an excellent combination as I get 2 tuners for basic channels and another that gets all channels in HD through their box. Worth consideration anyway...

Tom

[JerryB]

Originally Posted by d2tw4all

I ran with HDHR for a long time but really started to miss channels outside of the basic lineup. The HDPVR with their box alongside my HDHR has made an excellent combination as I get 2 tuners for basic channels and another that gets all channels in HD through their box. Worth consideration anyway...

Tom

I agree; that's basically my setup as well. An HDHR for local/basic unencrypted channels plus 2 HD STBs to HDPVRs for encrypted channels. All connected to SageTV (2 unencrypted plus 2 encrypted inputs) and then to my TV's via extenders with channel changing on the 2 STBs handled by firewire connections from the SageTV computer.

[mrdees960]

and just need internet access for guide data

this isn't entirely true. the settops need access to the WAN for guide, widgets, VoD, callerID, and remote DVR access (from the fios central website) as well. being double NAT'ed will have effects on some of these, as well as the functionality of mediashare software. mediashare doesn't need access to the WAN, but if the host pc is on a different network segment than the settops, it won't work.